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[kazinnud]

Hi, the following log is the first game I've ever played with any expansions outside of Intrigue and the Base set.  I managed to win this game on a lucky draw for the last province after greening really slowed my deck down.  I was wondering if I approached this board the right way and whether or not my ignoring of the Outpost was a good move in the long run.  Thanks for all your help!

------------ Game Setup ------------
Supply cards: Candlestick Maker, Fishing Village, Village, Familiar, Caravan, Remake, Silk Road, Merchant Ship, Mint, Outpost, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, Curse, Potion
Rating system: pro
Caro - starting cards: Estate, Estate, Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper
kazinnud - starting cards: Estate, Estate, Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper
Caro - shuffles deck
kazinnud - shuffles deck
Caro - draws Estate, Copper, Estate, Copper, Copper
kazinnud - draws Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 1 ----------
kazinnud - plays 4 Copper
kazinnud - buys Caravan
kazinnud - gains Caravan
kazinnud - draws Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate
 
---------- Caro: turn 1 ----------
Caro - plays 3 Copper
Caro - buys Fishing Village
Caro - gains Fishing Village
Caro - draws Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 2 ----------
kazinnud - plays 3 Copper
kazinnud - buys Fishing Village
kazinnud - gains Fishing Village
kazinnud - shuffles deck
kazinnud - draws Estate, Copper, Copper, Estate, Fishing Village
 
---------- Caro: turn 2 ----------
Caro - plays 4 Copper
Caro - buys Remake
Caro - gains Remake
Caro - shuffles deck
Caro - draws Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate, Copper
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 3 ----------
kazinnud - plays Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays 2 Copper
kazinnud - buys Fishing Village
kazinnud - gains Fishing Village
kazinnud - draws Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper
 
---------- Caro: turn 3 ----------
Caro - plays 4 Copper
Caro - buys Caravan
Caro - gains Caravan
Caro - draws Copper, Estate, Estate, Copper, Copper
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 4 ----------
kazinnud - duration Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays 4 Copper
kazinnud - buys Caravan
kazinnud - gains Caravan
kazinnud - draws Copper, Caravan
kazinnud - shuffles deck
kazinnud - draws Copper, Estate, Fishing Village
 
---------- Caro: turn 4 ----------
Caro - plays 3 Copper
Caro - buys Fishing Village
Caro - gains Fishing Village
Caro - draws Remake, Fishing Village
Caro - shuffles deck
Caro - draws Estate, Caravan, Copper
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 5 ----------
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays 2 Copper
kazinnud - buys Potion
kazinnud - gains Potion
kazinnud - draws Copper, Copper, Estate, Copper, Estate
 
---------- Caro: turn 5 ----------
Caro - plays Fishing Village
Caro - plays Caravan
Caro - draws Copper
Caro - plays Remake
Caro - trashes Estate
Caro - gains Silver
Caro - trashes Copper
Caro - plays 1 Copper
Caro - buys Candlestick Maker
Caro - gains Candlestick Maker
Caro - draws Copper, Copper, Estate, Estate, Copper
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 6 ----------
kazinnud - duration Caravan
kazinnud - draws Copper
kazinnud - duration Fishing Village
kazinnud - duration Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays 4 Copper
kazinnud - buys Caravan
kazinnud - gains Caravan
kazinnud - draws Copper, Caravan
kazinnud - shuffles deck
kazinnud - draws Copper, Estate, Copper
 
---------- Caro: turn 6 ----------
Caro - duration Fishing Village
Caro - duration Caravan
Caro - draws Copper
Caro - plays 4 Copper
Caro - buys Caravan
Caro - gains Caravan
Caro - draws Copper, Fishing Village
Caro - shuffles deck
Caro - draws Copper, Estate, Estate
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 7 ----------
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Potion
kazinnud - plays 3 Copper, 1 Potion
kazinnud - buys Familiar
kazinnud - gains Familiar
kazinnud - draws Copper, Estate, Copper, Copper, Fishing Village
 
---------- Caro: turn 7 ----------
Caro - plays Fishing Village
Caro - plays 2 Copper
Caro - buys Silver
Caro - gains Silver
Caro - draws Caravan, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 8 ----------
kazinnud - duration Caravan
kazinnud - draws Estate
kazinnud - plays Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays 3 Copper
kazinnud - buys Remake
kazinnud - gains Remake
kazinnud - draws Fishing Village, Caravan, Copper, Caravan
kazinnud - shuffles deck
kazinnud - draws Estate
 
---------- Caro: turn 8 ----------
Caro - duration Fishing Village
Caro - plays Caravan
Caro - draws Caravan
Caro - plays Caravan
Caro - draws Candlestick Maker
Caro - plays Candlestick Maker
Caro - receives 1 coin token
Caro - plays 4 Copper
Caro - buys Mint
Caro - trashes Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper
Caro - gains Mint
Caro - draws Fishing Village, Remake, Silver
Caro - shuffles deck
Caro - draws Copper, Fishing Village
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 9 ----------
kazinnud - duration Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Copper
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Estate
kazinnud - plays Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays 2 Copper
kazinnud - buys Silver
kazinnud - gains Silver
kazinnud - draws Familiar, Copper, Potion, Copper, Copper
 
---------- Caro: turn 9 ----------
Caro - duration Caravan
Caro - draws Candlestick Maker
Caro - duration Caravan
Caro - draws Mint
Caro - plays Fishing Village
Caro - plays Fishing Village
Caro - plays Candlestick Maker
Caro - receives 1 coin token
Caro - plays Remake
Caro - trashes Mint
Caro - gains Gold
Caro - trashes Copper
Caro - plays 1 Silver
Caro - uses 1 coin token
Caro - buys Mint
Caro - trashes Silver
Caro - gains Mint
Caro - draws Estate, Copper, Estate, Silver
Caro - shuffles deck
Caro - draws Candlestick Maker
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 10 ----------
kazinnud - duration Caravan
kazinnud - draws Estate
kazinnud - duration Caravan
kazinnud - draws Caravan
kazinnud - duration Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays Familiar
kazinnud - draws Remake
Caro - gains Curse
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Copper
kazinnud - plays 4 Copper, 1 Potion
kazinnud - buys Merchant Ship
kazinnud - gains Merchant Ship
kazinnud - draws Copper
kazinnud - shuffles deck
kazinnud - draws Fishing Village, Potion, Familiar, Caravan
 
---------- Caro: turn 10 ----------
Caro - duration Fishing Village
Caro - duration Fishing Village
Caro - plays Candlestick Maker
Caro - receives 1 coin token
Caro - plays 1 Copper, 1 Silver
Caro - buys Outpost
Caro - gains Outpost
Caro - draws Remake, Mint, Caravan, Gold, Caravan
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 11 ----------
kazinnud - duration Caravan
kazinnud - draws Copper
kazinnud - plays Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays Familiar
kazinnud - draws Copper
Caro - gains Curse
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Merchant Ship
kazinnud - plays Merchant Ship
kazinnud - plays 3 Copper, 1 Potion
kazinnud - buys Gold
kazinnud - gains Gold
kazinnud - draws Estate, Copper, Silver, Estate, Caravan
 
---------- Caro: turn 11 ----------
Caro - plays Caravan
Caro - shuffles deck
Caro - draws Candlestick Maker
Caro - plays Caravan
Caro - draws Estate
Caro - plays Candlestick Maker
Caro - receives 1 coin token
Caro - plays Mint
Caro - reveals Gold
Caro - gains Gold
Caro - plays 1 Gold
Caro - uses 2 coin tokens
Caro - buys Merchant Ship
Caro - gains Merchant Ship
Caro - draws Curse, Copper, Curse, Fishing Village, Silver
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 12 ----------
kazinnud - duration Fishing Village
kazinnud - duration Caravan
kazinnud - draws Copper
kazinnud - duration Merchant Ship
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Copper
kazinnud - plays 3 Copper, 1 Silver
kazinnud - buys Province
kazinnud - gains Province
kazinnud - draws Remake, Estate, Copper, Fishing Village
kazinnud - shuffles deck
kazinnud - draws Potion
 
---------- Caro: turn 12 ----------
Caro - duration Caravan
Caro - draws Outpost
Caro - duration Caravan
Caro - draws Estate
Caro - plays Fishing Village
Caro - plays Outpost
Caro - plays 1 Copper, 1 Silver
Caro - buys Caravan
Caro - gains Caravan
Caro - duration Outpost
Caro - draws Fishing Village
Caro - shuffles deck
Caro - draws Merchant Ship, Caravan
 
---------- Caro: turn 12 ----------
Caro - duration Fishing Village
Caro - plays Fishing Village
Caro - plays Caravan
Caro - draws Gold
Caro - plays Merchant Ship
Caro - plays 1 Gold
Caro - uses 1 coin token
Caro - buys Province
Caro - gains Province
Caro - draws Caravan, Mint, Silver, Remake, Curse
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 13 ----------
kazinnud - duration Caravan
kazinnud - draws Caravan
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Copper
kazinnud - plays Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays Remake
kazinnud - trashes Estate
kazinnud - gains Silver
kazinnud - trashes Potion
kazinnud - gains Merchant Ship
kazinnud - plays 2 Copper
kazinnud - buys Candlestick Maker
kazinnud - gains Candlestick Maker
kazinnud - draws Copper, Gold, Estate, Silver, Estate
 
---------- Caro: turn 13 ----------
Caro - duration Fishing Village
Caro - duration Caravan
Caro - draws Curse
Caro - duration Merchant Ship
Caro - plays Caravan
Caro - draws Copper
Caro - plays Remake
Caro - trashes Curse
Caro - trashes Curse
Caro - plays 1 Silver, 1 Copper
Caro - buys Gold
Caro - gains Gold
Caro - draws Estate, Candlestick Maker, Estate, Gold, Caravan
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 14 ----------
kazinnud - duration Caravan
kazinnud - draws Copper
kazinnud - duration Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays 2 Copper, 1 Gold, 1 Silver
kazinnud - buys Province
kazinnud - gains Province
kazinnud - draws Caravan, Copper, Familiar, Fishing Village, Copper
 
---------- Caro: turn 14 ----------
Caro - duration Caravan
Caro - shuffles deck
Caro - draws Gold
Caro - plays Caravan
Caro - draws Caravan
Caro - plays Caravan
Caro - draws Silver
Caro - plays Candlestick Maker
Caro - receives 1 coin token
Caro - plays 2 Gold, 1 Silver
Caro - buys Province
Caro - gains Province
Caro - draws Outpost, Province, Gold, Copper, Fishing Village
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 15 ----------
kazinnud - plays Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays Familiar
kazinnud - draws Province
Caro - gains Curse
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Merchant Ship
kazinnud - plays Merchant Ship
kazinnud - plays 2 Copper
kazinnud - buys Caravan
kazinnud - gains Caravan
kazinnud - draws Copper
kazinnud - shuffles deck
kazinnud - draws Silver, Merchant Ship, Caravan, Copper
 
---------- Caro: turn 15 ----------
Caro - duration Caravan
Caro - draws Mint
Caro - duration Caravan
Caro - draws Fishing Village
Caro - plays Fishing Village
Caro - plays Fishing Village
Caro - plays Mint
Caro - reveals Gold
Caro - gains Gold
Caro - plays Outpost
Caro - plays 1 Copper, 1 Gold
Caro - buys Gold
Caro - gains Gold
Caro - duration Outpost
Caro - draws Remake, Merchant Ship
Caro - shuffles deck
Caro - draws Gold
 
---------- Caro: turn 15 ----------
Caro - duration Fishing Village
Caro - duration Fishing Village
Caro - plays Merchant Ship
Caro - plays 1 Gold
Caro - uses 1 coin token
Caro - buys Province
Caro - gains Province
Caro - draws Candlestick Maker, Gold, Caravan, Province, Caravan
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 16 ----------
kazinnud - duration Fishing Village
kazinnud - duration Caravan
kazinnud - draws Caravan
kazinnud - duration Merchant Ship
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Silver
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Copper
kazinnud - plays Merchant Ship
kazinnud - plays 3 Copper, 2 Silver
kazinnud - buys Province
kazinnud - gains Province
kazinnud - draws Copper, Familiar, Copper, Estate, Candlestick Maker
 
---------- Caro: turn 16 ----------
Caro - duration Merchant Ship
Caro - plays Caravan
Caro - draws Gold
Caro - plays Caravan
Caro - draws Gold
Caro - plays Candlestick Maker
Caro - receives 1 coin token
Caro - plays 3 Gold
Caro - uses 1 coin token
Caro - buys Province
Caro - gains Province
Caro - buys Silk Road
Caro - gains Silk Road
Caro - draws Caravan, Mint, Silver, Copper, Curse
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 17 ----------
kazinnud - duration Caravan
kazinnud - draws Caravan
kazinnud - duration Caravan
kazinnud - draws Province
kazinnud - duration Merchant Ship
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Gold
kazinnud - plays Candlestick Maker
kazinnud - receives 1 coin token
kazinnud - plays Familiar
kazinnud - draws Estate
Caro - gains Curse
kazinnud - plays 2 Copper, 1 Gold
kazinnud - uses 1 coin token
kazinnud - buys Silk Road
kazinnud - gains Silk Road
kazinnud - buys Silk Road
kazinnud - gains Silk Road
kazinnud - draws Remake, Province, Copper, Fishing Village, Copper
 
---------- Caro: turn 17 ----------
Caro - duration Caravan
Caro - draws Province
Caro - duration Caravan
Caro - draws Estate
Caro - plays Caravan
Caro - draws Estate
Caro - plays 1 Silver, 1 Copper
Caro - buys Estate
Caro - gains Estate
Caro - draws Gold
Caro - shuffles deck
Caro - draws Province, Gold, Caravan, Outpost
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 18 ----------
kazinnud - duration Caravan
kazinnud - shuffles deck
kazinnud - draws Copper
kazinnud - plays Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays 3 Copper
kazinnud - buys Silk Road
kazinnud - gains Silk Road
kazinnud - draws Merchant Ship, Fishing Village, Copper, Province, Caravan
 
---------- Caro: turn 18 ----------
Caro - duration Caravan
Caro - draws Estate
Caro - plays Caravan
Caro - draws Estate
Caro - plays Outpost
Caro - plays 2 Gold
Caro - buys Duchy
Caro - gains Duchy
Caro - duration Outpost
Caro - draws Remake, Gold, Gold
 
---------- Caro: turn 18 ----------
Caro - duration Caravan
Caro - draws Curse
Caro - plays 2 Gold
Caro - buys Silk Road
Caro - gains Silk Road
Caro - draws Province, Fishing Village, Silver, Mint, Province
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 19 ----------
kazinnud - duration Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Familiar
kazinnud - plays Fishing Village
kazinnud - plays Familiar
kazinnud - draws Estate
Caro - gains Curse
kazinnud - plays Merchant Ship
kazinnud - plays 1 Copper
kazinnud - buys Duchy
kazinnud - gains Duchy
kazinnud - draws Silk Road, Gold, Copper, Province, Caravan
 
---------- Caro: turn 19 ----------
Caro - plays Fishing Village
Caro - plays 1 Silver
Caro - buys Estate
Caro - gains Estate
Caro - draws Gold, Estate, Candlestick Maker, Merchant Ship, Province
 
---------- kazinnud: turn 20 ----------
kazinnud - duration Caravan
kazinnud - draws Candlestick Maker
kazinnud - duration Fishing Village
kazinnud - duration Merchant Ship
kazinnud - plays Candlestick Maker
kazinnud - receives 1 coin token
kazinnud - plays Caravan
kazinnud - draws Silver
kazinnud - plays 1 Gold, 1 Copper, 1 Silver
kazinnud - uses 1 coin token
kazinnud - buys Province
kazinnud - gains Province
kazinnud - buys Estate
kazinnud - gains Estate
kazinnud - draws Copper, Merchant Ship, Copper, Silk Road, Estate
 
------------ Game Over ------------
kazinnud - cards: 4 Caravan, 2 Merchant Ship, 2 Fishing Village, 1 Remake, 1 Familiar, 1 Candlestick Maker, 7 Copper, 2 Silver, 1 Gold, 4 Province, 3 Silk Road, 3 Estate, 1 Duchy
kazinnud - total victory points: 36
kazinnud - turns: 20
 
Caro - cards: 3 Caravan, 2 Fishing Village, 1 Candlestick Maker, 1 Merchant Ship, 1 Outpost, 1 Remake, 1 Mint, 5 Gold, 1 Silver, 1 Copper, 4 Estate, 4 Province, 2 Silk Road, 1 Duchy, 3 Curse
Caro - total victory points: 32
Caro - turns: 19
 
1st place: kazinnud
2nd place: Caro

[dondon151]

If you buy a Remake, buy it on turn 1 or 2, not on turn 8.

Unless you like, open with a Potion to try and get a Familiar. This board is pretty lackluster. It's still moderately interesting, though.

[sudgy]

One thing I noticed right away: you don't like trashing.  You ideally want to trash ALL your estates and coppers.  They slow you down a lot, and getting rid of them will help you.  You should have opened Remake, then tried to trash the estates and coppers.

Another thing, if you're going to be cursing, you want to try to do it right away.  Usually, on a familiar board, you want to open with a potion to get the familiar (not always the case, but usually).  The earlier you curse, the better it is.

Last, I'm not sure how good getting a bunch of Fishing Villages/Caravans/Merchant Ships is.  You aren't using the actions from Fishing Villages (that's one of its best uses), and it might have just been better to get Silver instead of Caravans, since you seemed to be going for mainly a BM (Big Money) deck.

Also, welcome to the forums!

PPE: Oh, right, you can't open with Remake and Potion...  Oh well, whichever one you like better.  I probably would open Potion then buy the Remake with my next $4 hand.

[dondon151]

I'm pretty sure that BM decks without terminal draw generally prefer Caravan to Silver.

[kazinnud]

Thanks for the replies and warm welcome everyone! 

dondon151: yeah, I really had no clue how to deal with the lack of draw, so I just got caravans.  So i lucked into the right choice, I suppose. 

sudgy: because it was my first time playing many of these cards, I tried to go with a seemingly safe opening.  I only won this game because of a lucky draw during the duchy-dancing/silk-roading phase of the game.  But I agree, a way to trash early on would have been good.  Cursing earlier would have been better too.  I just didn't make any decisions about the direction of my deck, so I just kinda fell into a BM game that happened to outlast my opponent during greening.

I agree that the fishing villages weren't really a big help in this game--the extra actions would not have helped nearly as much as silver or more caravans.

I think, though, that remaking the estates/trashing the coppers is a better long-term strategy that opening with two more curses.  Oh well, when I lose a game by two points one day, I'll curse the day I didn't open with trying to curse

Thanks again all!

[DG]

Iif you want extra actions then this is a kingdom where you should consider basic villages instead of fishing villages. Drawing an extra card will cycle your familiars faster. It might put extra treasures in hand for a mint. It leaves more cards in hand for a remake. It's worth considering. If you don't want extra actions then silver is better than a fishing village.

[GeoLib]

I think, though, that remaking the estates/trashing the coppers is a better long-term strategy that opening with two more curses.  Oh well, when I lose a game by two points one day, I'll curse the day I didn't open with trying to curse

Ah. I think you are misunderstanding the power of early cursing. It's not the extra points that matter so much (although they do make a difference), but rather the extra dead card you put in your opponent's deck early on. Every time they shuffle they see that card again instead of something good, so the earlier you get it in there the more time it spends clogging up their deck and slowing them down.

[Robz888]

I'd say either Potion or Remake opening is pretty automtic here. Probably Potion, and then get Remake ASAP. There's just nothing good enough to fight the Familiar Curses, except maybe Remake. But you should probably pursue both. This board has, like nothing else going for it. I might prefer Caravans to Silver so that I can play Familiar more often.... yeah, not a lot to do here. Maybe Merchant Ship eventually.

[dondon151]

You can also pick up CSM on $2s when you use Remake. Actually it's probably a good idea to pick up a couple of those anyway.

[SCSN]

Remake and Caravan definitely makes me want to ignore Familiar. I'd get a 2nd Remake with my 2nd $4 for extra fast trashing, looking to remake it later into a Merchant Ship when my deck is very trim and the Remakes collide.

[DG]

You can also pick up CSM on $2s when you use Remake. Actually it's probably a good idea to pick up a couple of those anyway.

I don't think that's necessarily true and it will need some thought at the time to judge whether they will improve this deck or not.

[shark_bait]

I think, though, that remaking the estates/trashing the coppers is a better long-term strategy that opening with two more curses.  Oh well, when I lose a game by two points one day, I'll curse the day I didn't open with trying to curse

Ah. I think you are misunderstanding the power of early cursing. It's not the extra points that matter so much (although they do make a difference), but rather the extra dead card you put in your opponent's deck early on. Every time they shuffle they see that card again instead of something good, so the earlier you get it in there the more time it spends clogging up their deck and slowing them down.

Passing up on an opening Remake is not worth it though.  In this case, it is better to get your deck size under control and then transition into Cursing with Familiar.  The idea here is to get a deck that can play all of your Familiars each turn.  If your opponent does not properly manage his deck size, you will quickly flood his deck with 2-3 Curses per turn that he can't trash immediately.  Delayed Cursing is deceptively powerful in decks that initially trash, but then build up to larger effective deck sizes again.

[GeoLib]

I think, though, that remaking the estates/trashing the coppers is a better long-term strategy that opening with two more curses.  Oh well, when I lose a game by two points one day, I'll curse the day I didn't open with trying to curse

Ah. I think you are misunderstanding the power of early cursing. It's not the extra points that matter so much (although they do make a difference), but rather the extra dead card you put in your opponent's deck early on. Every time they shuffle they see that card again instead of something good, so the earlier you get it in there the more time it spends clogging up their deck and slowing them down.

Passing up on an opening Remake is not worth it though.  In this case, it is better to get your deck size under control and then transition into Cursing with Familiar.  The idea here is to get a deck that can play all of your Familiars each turn.  If your opponent does not properly manage his deck size, you will quickly flood his deck with 2-3 Curses per turn that he can't trash immediately.  Delayed Cursing is deceptively powerful in decks that initially trash, but then build up to larger effective deck sizes again.

Yeah. It just seemed from the OP's post that they didn't understand why you would want early cursing, seeing it as just a matter of points. I think I would also open remake over potion here.

[dondon151]

I don't think that's necessarily true and it will need some thought at the time to judge whether they will improve this deck or not.

Coin tokens are helpful since you only want so many Merchant Ships anyway. You're probably more willing to get Caravan on $5. Then there's also the +buy.

[gman314]

I think that my approach on this board would be to open Remake/Silver, and then quickly get either a potion or a second Remake. I think that Familiar is fairly skippable on this board. Then, get a pile of Caravans, money and points. Maybe a Merchant Ship, but that's not really necessary. Although you could get it by Remaking the Potion.

[Robz888]

Don't really see the value of Candlestick Makers here. Sure, I will take them on $2, but I don't want to go out of my way to get them. There's very little draw or cycling--mostly just Caravan--so it's not like you will be really raking in the tokens constantly. A +buy would be okay.

[dondon151]

Like I said, you'd only want a couple for the coin smoothing and the +buy.

[kazinnud]

Thanks for the great discussion, folks

Some takeaways I'm getting from the thread: first, I think that there is a real opportunity cost between cursing/remaking here.  The cursing opening will take a couple of turns to get going--you need to buy a potion, then you need to draw the potion/treasure, then you need to draw the familiar before the first curse hits.  The remaking opening is a long term way to trim the deck and build momentum--it will still take a couple of turns to get going.  Therefore it seems like these are, generally speaking, mutually exclusive strategies.  With this kingdom, however, going for both might be the best way to outlast your opponent, since there is no megaturn combo or engine.

Another takeaway: cursing attacks and trashing are generally better earlier, so that their benefits can be realized over a longer course of the game.

So, Robz888, I think that getting both might lose to a deck just going for one--though, I am at a loss about how the Familiar opening would continue without just going caravan/points.  Remake would probably be part of this strategy, so....

Another takeaway: a caravan might only be as good as silver?

[DG]

Another takeaway: a caravan might only be as good as silver?

It depends how you harness them. If you use them draw coppers and curses then they're not valuable. If you use them to draw big hands where you remake out bad cards or mint gold each turn then they are valuable.

[Davio]

I don't think Remaking and Cursing are mutually exclusive in general, only in the opening.

If you get to a supertrimmed deck faster than your opponent, sometimes you might want to get the Cursing in. Dishing out one or two Curses every single turn can be pretty hurtful. You could even Remake something like Silver or Fishing Village into a Potion to not have to waste a turn to buy it.

[dondon151]

The order in which you get a junker and a trasher depends on the kingdom. Expensive trashers like Upgrade and Junk Dealer are best left for after picking up one junker. Early, fast trashers like Steward, Remake, and Chapel are better when picked up ASAP. Sometimes you don't want the trasher or the junker at all.