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[kn1tt3r]

Ooooh, we get India!

Well, it used to be part of the British empire... so basically you're not getting it, but losing it more and more. 

[Rabid]

I just played a very enjoyable semifinal against DStu, winning 4-2-2.

Good luck to Shark bait and Califax in the other semi, see one of you in the Final.

Full report to follow shortly.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-070150-28d712b1.html
Draw 37-37. My Silver Ironworks vs Silver/HorseTaders
My plan was to use IW to gain lots of different cards to help trigger menagerie, and score from fairgrounds. this didn't quite work and I got very lucky to have £10 and +buy on the last turn to draw when 7 points behind. I could have extended the game in hope of a win, but I think it is usually correct to take the draw, then go first in the next game.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-071036-52166035.html
Rabid 49 DStu 33

Silver / Remake vs Silver Horse Traders
Plan was to trash down with remake to make pairing up tunnels & HT more reliable.
I got the perfect turn 3 of remake 2 estates into tunnel's, buy tunnel.
Then got a T4 horse traders to discard them to.
Apprentice was key to trash late game golds.


http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-072334-3fffe4af.html

Rabid 15 DStu 47

Silver / Masq vs Silver / Masq

Plan was to go 1 masq + Money and race.
DStu took a witch on T3, I think I over reacted and took a second Masq.
DStu transitioned well into bridge / City combo turn.
I made the critical error of building a mess not a deck.
I should have either stuck to big money with 1 to 2 Masq.
Or competed for the city / bridges.


http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-073958-9c20c8dd.html

Rabid 27 DStu 27

Potion Silver vs Potion Silver.
Plan was alchemist, as we had +buy from baron, and outpost.
I think I should have just stuck with outpost and not bothered with baron at all.
Start of my last turn I was 11 points ahead with 2 provinces remaining.
I get $3 + outpost into $3 choosing to buy estates both times. with the hope that a 13 point lead will be enough. DStu gets the prov into outpost inoit prov+ estate from the draw.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-074654-61aee333.html

Rabid 25 vs DStu 22

HP into develop vs HP into familiar on 5/2 start.
Probably the most interesting board to analyse.
I would guess HP only counters the curses on 5/2 not 4/3.
I think I would have been better off with remake instead of develop with the hope of double trashing curses. I would guess I won this mostly from going first.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-080226-396cc612.html

Rabid 25 DStu 14

Sea Hag / Silver vs Sea Hag warehouse.

Plan was to trade some long turn curses for a silver now, curse will run out eventually, then it will be who can recover first with forge. midgame I used warehouse and inn to desk cycle to find the library & forge aggressively.  Late games used forge to control end timing by trashing provinces while ahead.


http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-080948-c50d9e49.html

Rabid 48 DStu 59

Monument Loan vs Silver Silver

My plan was monuments + Tournament for virtual money to make the loan always hit copper. turn 3 I buy venture for no reason. I get very lucky with the loan anyway so it is closer than it should have been, but I get thrashed by the better plan of BM + wharf.


http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-081708-0fd5eb95.html

Rabid 38 DStu 34

Silver Silver vs Silver courtyard

My plan was BM + margrave, which I should have stuck too. got some menageries as a soft counter to margrave discards, they should have been silvers.
Keys plays in this were on Turn 15 down 2 prov to 4, buying the province and hoping for luck. then on turn 17, playing cartographer leaving Gold on top, not playing a menagerie and buying a duchy, but leaving gold for next have to have a better shot at the province.


Many thanks to DStu for the match, and the Mean Mr Mustard for organising.

Rabid

[DStu]

Good luck to the remaining German players! Win this tournament 

So that is Reyk's task now, Rabbid beat me 4-2 (with 2 draws)
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-070150-28d712b1.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-071036-52166035.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-072334-3fffe4af.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-073958-9c20c8dd.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-074654-61aee333.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-080226-396cc612.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-080948-c50d9e49.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-081708-0fd5eb95.html

First match starting with a draw: 0:0
Somehow boring board, Menangerie is there without thrash, Fairgrounds also maybe with Ironworks, I didn't really know and went BM-HorseTrader, has the option with +buy to go for the Fairgrounds later. Rabid went more diverse for the Fairgrounds via Ironworks, in the end we draw and started the match again.
Second match 1:0:
There's Tunnel and Hoard for getting Gold without buying it. I thought I would hoard into the Tunnels for money, but Rabid remade his Estates, so I where forced to buy early, too. Loaded up with some Festival/Library stuff to get the Hoards, which definitely was a mistake. Should have just stick to the Apprentice, which of course is fueled well with all these free Golds. And which does not combo at all with the Lib.
Third: 1:1:
Both started Masquerade, I went for Witch which probably is not the best against 2 Masquerades. Felt like I was behind in the middle of the game, but then the Festivals were getting low. With the Bridge I picked up earlier I could get some Cities and clean the Festivals, grabbing some more Bridges and support for the Megaturn at the end. Had some luck that despite all my actions, I always had a crappy Copper to pass at his Masquerades
Fourth: 1:1 (draw again)
Alchemist-Outpost from both of us. I got 2 Potions which almost always sticked together, and almost never hit the Alchemist stack, so I again felt loosing. But in the last turn, Rabid's Potion also missed, and he managed to  get 2 Estates in his turn (including Outpost). My Potion hit the Alchemists and I could get doubleProvince + Estate for another draw.  So the luck came back to me at the time I needed it. Though of course one more tiny little coin would have been nice
Five: 2:1
I went HuntingParty-Familiar, he just ate all the curses, developed his Estates and went full HP.  I bought a cache and felt really clever, as the HP now have 2 $3-coins to hit. Anyway, I lost, the HP defended very well against the Curses. Nevertheless I think some interesting questions to ask for the simulator here, espescially what the HP really thinks about the Cache.  And is the HP good against all Cursers, or is this because the Familiar does not really combo well because of the Potion?
Six: 3:1
SeaHag-Libaray-Warehouse-Inn-Forge somehow from both of us, I went for the Hag more agressively, but he managed to forge much better at the beginning, so I again felt like having not much chance and this time I didn't manage to steal a tie.
Seventh: 3:2
Boring BM-Wharf with a Tournament as a bonus against Monument-Nobles. Went in front quite fastly and managed to stay there comfortably.
Eigth: 4:2
I again started BM, this time Courtyard, added a Margrave and a Carthographer. Think one Gold was not enough, but at the time I realized it was too late. Last shuffle started with the fabulous green-only hand, followed by a $7 which I think would have won me the game if it would have been $8, but as I said, I think the mistake was only getting one Gold.

So thanks for the games again, much fun in the Finals. And thanks for organizing.

[shark_bait]

Congrats to Rabid on advancing.  Reyk and I were originally planning on playing this afternoon, but I had some family traditions that came up, so were now planning on playing Tuesday at 7:00 pm GMT.  One of us will post our games when we finish.

[DG]

And is the HP good against all Cursers, or is this because the Familiar does not really combo well because of the Potion?

The third familiar almost certainly wasn't necessary and I suspect that taking a develop/remake instead would have given you a favourable continuation. In general, the hunting parties will discard any number of curses however once you get so many curses in a deck the 5 card hands might become fatally poor. Shrinking the deck gives a much better chance of consistent draws.

[Reyk]

I've won a thrilling 4:3 match against shark bait.

He totally outplayed me in the beginning - especially in the first and third games to go for a 3-0 lead.
Fourth game was a Ironworks-Garden 4-4 split which I've won due to a 32-29(!) card split. It could have been over with a very clear 4-0 at this point. Game 5 I've won by just 1 point. Game 6 was the only game where I played better I guess.
 
A very lucky comeback - I will post the games via CR tomorrow and comment a bit more.

PS: The final is scheduled for sunday.

[Reyk]

My comments on the games (part I)

1) shark_bait - califax 13-7
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-111501-52294134.html

Ironworks/Ambassador brutally outplayed my Ambassador/Ambassador. Courtyard/Throne were the key cards for Ironworks to get. Later backup by 1 Festival/1 Witch wasn't anymore important. Shark_bait got things started turn 10 with Throne/Throne/Cortyard followed by quadruple Amb and I was very much in trouble.

This took me a bit by surprise - I havn't seen this particular combination of cards. It still seems a bit risky, but worked out perfectly.

2) califax - shark_bait 34-44
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-113923-66864fcc.html

A very interesting setup with 7 or 8 cards being interesting: cards in supply: Coppersmith, Ghost Ship, Inn, Menagerie, Saboteur, Shanty Town, Trade Route, Woodcutter, Workshop, and Young Witch ( Courtyard as bane)

I really liked the non identical starting hands here - they made the game very interesting. I had a 5-2 start which looks very good and ... probably misplayed it. There are 3 options I see:
1) Young Witch/Courtyard
2) Inn/see what you get (probably get some Courtyards and maybe pass on Young Witch, because Trade Route can handle some mild cursing)
3) Ghost Ship/Courtyard

I chose 3) because I didn't want to give up a potential 5-2 advantage but this may well be the weakest option. I thougt that Menagerie wasn't that good apart from countering Ghost Ship and getting it somewhat conflicting with getting banes, but my Double Young Witch did a poor job. The Witches were blocked 10 times and all other things (number of banes) being equal my double Witch only managed a 4-4 curse split against shark_bait's one Witch.

Shark's Workshop was nice too, because there are many interesting 3$ cost cards, but whith all these terminals to start with I had no room for this. Playing this again I wouldn't buy Ghost Ship and probably go with Inn as it has good synergies with the bane and the Menagerie.

3) califax - shark_bait 42-52
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-115306-5a16a7d6.html

Very instructive. You know - Duke is such a beautifully designed card. I like it myself quite a bit, but here I was tempted to play Treasure Map/Warehouse. Combine this with Council room/Apprentice and Provinces seem to sell out fast enough. Plus you really don't want to underbuy even more for 12$ ...
I didn't play my second warehouse turn 5 leaving 6 cards with 2 Treasure Maps and it worked. But ...

Shark_bait opened Smugglers/Potion (for University) and later used the university gained Apprentices to great effect. He converted (later bought) Treasure Maps at turn 10, but couldn't resist to buy Province at turn 11 either ;-) (Duchy for 12$ might have been even better in an otherwise very well played game). With his Smugglers/Apprentices he was much better armed for a Duchy race and could easily catch up (my leed was 21-4 at some point). I stalled before getting that last Province.

A well deserved 3-0 lead - I didn't believe in some sort of comeback at this point at all.

[Reyk]

My comments on the games (part II)

4) califax - shark_bait 20-17
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-120056-5ec27a0a.html

I pretty much have trouble playing Garden/Ironworks mirrors. When to start buying Gardens? Can you afford to take some Silver and how much? Anyway there always seems to be quite a bit of luck involved because at some point you have to use Ironworks for Gardens and than you can draw either money for another $4 or an Ironworks dead.

The game offered nethertheless some decisions. At 3$ Scheme, Silver, Lighthouse are competing. We pretty much mirrored these. Scheme seems to be high priority early. Silver/Lighthouse than seem to be a close call (there is still Bureaucrat around).

The interesting question is whether to take Bureaucrat or not. Shark_bait took it - I don't like it so much here, because you can't use Ironworks on point cards with Bureaucrat in hand. On the other side it might give you the coin advantage for a decisive Duchy ...

Shark_bait started taking Gardens as soon as turn 4. The gardens were split evenly - I won the estate race 8-6. At turn 11 however shark_bait used his Ironworks on Silver to buy a Duchy. With the drawback that he couldn't use his Bureaucrat this turn. The game was very near the 3pile ending. If you can't afford a Duchy yourself you will inevitably lose by 1 point - unless there is a difference in garden points ...

You know the end already. Shark_bait finished the game at turn 12 (I would have done it otherwise) with 29 cards. It might not be totally illogial given my starting player advantage and the 7-3 Ironworks split. But still very unlucky for Shark_bait who would have ended the match with a crushing 4-0 if he only had one more card.

5) shark_bait - califax 37-38
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-122451-d44add22.html

An interesting board (Edit: I don't consider it interesting anymore - just Jack + BM is the way to go). Jack and Stables are screaming for some sort of BM, but there are alternative point cards and Pirate Ship too.
We both started Haven/Jack (I doubled Jack) and  decided to give the ships a try later, because the Nobles/Fairgrounds have potential to prolong the game, plus Jack gives some target and the ship helps to get 10 different cards. I'm still not sure on this as you might want the actions for Nobles. My ships were a bit unlucky, but shark_bait on the other hand missklicked at turn 7 with 9$ and an Estate in hand. He bought Fairgrounds thinking it was Farmland.

There was some Penultimate Province Rule dancing later. When shark_bait broke the rule the game ended on my turn by just 1 point. Lucky again.

6) shark_bait - califax 6-30
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-123551-34230ee5.html

Masquerade, Quarry, Grand Market.
Shark_bait spent 5$ at turn 3 (and again at turn 5) for an Upgrade - I for the second Quarry. I really believe the latter is better here. Maybe his plan was to upgrade Upgrades into Grand Markets, but it didn't work out.
You still have to be lucky to draw the Quarries together, but I managed this at turn 6 and then you have a nice snowball effect.

7) shark_bait - califax 37-45
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-124828-30f6008b.html

A mirror match around Young Witch, Smugglers (Bane) and Vault.

I wasn't happy with 5-2 here (Militia as a potential Vault counter + YW priority), but YW/Haven wasn't so bad. It doesn't help to put aside Smugglers to bane Young Witch, but it does help to play one each turn. Plus shark_bait was unlucky and drew his Witch only at turn 5.
I correctly guessed his Smugglers at turn 3 (with good chances - it still could have been the other way round: Witch at turn 4 and Smugglers at turn 5 for shark_bait) and havened the Witch aside to give the only Curse of the game at turn 4.

Smugglers as bane are funny - they smuggle each other around quite a bit. Soon nobody even tried to play Young Witch.

I noticed an interesting moment at turn 9 when shark_bait took a Gold for $7. Maybe he feared the Bank would underperform, but I still think it will make 3$. With so many Smugglers around I would have taken it instead. As it was I could smuggle the Gold.

Anyway I probably had simply more favorable draws this game.


A match with some mistakes, but some nice dramaturgy too (at least if you win ;-)) Despite being outclassed by shark_bait at the beginning I enjoyed the whole match. Btw: 5 out of 7 games saw second seat winning.

As we're getting closer to the finals, I'm wondering if the players in the finals might be willing to do a write-up of their matches (or maybe the most interesting 2 matches) at the level of depth that the blog had with the annotated games feature. I, for one, would love to hear how the players thought about some of the key turn-by-turn decisions, and this seems an easy way to generate some more front-page content for the blog. Would the players left in the tournament be interested in doing that?

I think the most instructive game is shark_bait's win in game 3. Maybe I didn't understand enough to comment on this more.

In general we had very interesting setups. Games 2, 3, 5 provide very good raw material for the Kingdom Design Challenge. I appreciate more comments on the games.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

<b>Round Four Results</b>


<s>1. shark_bait (1)</s>
vs.
<b>1. califax (4)</b>

<s>5. Dstu (19)</s>
vs.
<b>3. Rabid (10)</b>

[Geronimoo]

@Reyk: Ironworks/Gardens is quite simple to play:

Get 2 Ironworks, then start greening

Really, there's nothing to it.

Scheme is a nice idea, but in practice not opening Silver means you won't be able to buy a Duchy which are really really good in this matchup because Gardens will often not reach 3 VP in these lightning fast games so the extra point of the Duchy should give you the win.

Bureaucrat prolongs the game so I'd only buy it if you were unlucky in the Gardens split and need to catch up with Duchies.

[Reyk]

You are probably right - I could feel the pain not being able to buy that Duchy. On the other hand the Duchy will not equalize a 5-3 Garden split even if they go to 29 only. Plus Scheme might be the reason for reaching 30 cards ...

Hm, interesting. I guess some simulator knows more and you've already checked it ;-)

[Geronimoo]

@Reyk: the Jack game was played...how should I put this mildly... horribly by both players 

Jack is happiest when you buy money and let him do his thing finishing the game in 15 turns. Adding all the actions just lessens its effectiveness. Pirate Ship will never match Jack's speed. Stables will stop Jack from drawing cards. Haven's effect will let it draw an extra card once and no cards once so it evens out and it baffles me that you're both buying Havens over Silver in what's basically a big money game with no real engine to be build. Nobles are fine of course (extra VP), but all the other stuff just gets in the way (even if it gets Fairgrounds to 4VP).

[greatexpectations]

Jack is happiest when you buy money and let him do his thing finishing the game in 15 turns. Adding all the actions just lessens its effectiveness. Pirate Ship will never match Jack's speed.

anectdotally, i would add that courtyard and mint (say 3+ copper around turns 4-6) are two cards that can help speed up jack just a little.

edit: i can hit 4 provinces and 2 duchy's in 14 turns (solitaire) pretty reliably with a single mint.

[rod-]

Another card that speeds jack up dramatically:  Opposing bishops. 
I played an entertaining 3p game earlier today where i had 5 provinces on turn 14 (and was poised to buy a 6th on 15) because both opponents kindly set me up with bishops.  My jacks trashed the estates, their bishops trashed the coppers, and my money just bought more money.  That was another game where I took an early 8$ hand for a gold, btw.  It's possible I didn't need to do that, even, but I hadn't expected the deck to get as fast as it did.

[chwhite]

@Reyk: the Jack game was played...how should I put this mildly... horribly by both players 

Jack is happiest when you buy money and let him do his thing finishing the game in 15 turns. Adding all the actions just lessens its effectiveness. Pirate Ship will never match Jack's speed. Stables will stop Jack from drawing cards. Haven's effect will let it draw an extra card once and no cards once so it evens out and it baffles me that you're both buying Havens over Silver in what's basically a big money game with no real engine to be build. Nobles are fine of course (extra VP), but all the other stuff just gets in the way (even if it gets Fairgrounds to 4VP).

Fishing Village and Oasis are two cards I'll buy over Silver in Jack games; it's not a huge difference but it's at least somewhat helpful to have non-terminal cash that decreases your handsize on turns where you play Jack.

Most of the time I simply can't bear to play Jack "correctly", so I'm always glad to see at least some other actions that don't hurt a Jack deck.

[ackack]

Fishing Village and Oasis are two cards I'll buy over Silver in Jack games; it's not a huge difference but it's at least somewhat helpful to have non-terminal cash that decreases your handsize on turns where you play Jack.

Oasis is pretty good, but I really like Fishing Village for this. It contributes to the next turn, and if you have a couple it's not even necessarily a disaster if Jack pulls the other one as you may still have an action to play it.

[chwhite]

Fishing Village and Oasis are two cards I'll buy over Silver in Jack games; it's not a huge difference but it's at least somewhat helpful to have non-terminal cash that decreases your handsize on turns where you play Jack.

Oasis is pretty good, but I really like Fishing Village for this. It contributes to the next turn, and if you have a couple it's not even necessarily a disaster if Jack pulls the other one as you may still have an action to play it.

Oh, sure, as is so often the case, Fishing Village is stronger here.

[Reyk]

@Reyk: the Jack game was played...how should I put this mildly... horribly by both players 

Jack is happiest when you buy money and let him do his thing finishing the game in 15 turns.

You are probably right here too. Jack isn't my friend and I haven't played Hinterland so much.
But I was still concerned about that 15 turn number in front of two alternative victory card sources. How much does Jack stall if one player basically doesn't buy Provinces and constantly hits the Jack deck with ships?

These were my concerns - probably not justified as 10 cards seems to be the maximum for Fairgrounds here. In a pure Jack deck Silver is definitely better than Haven, but this wasn't the intention from the very beginning. But then again you are right that Jack doesn't fit into the intended deck.

[olneyce]

But I was still concerned about that 15 turn number in front of two alternative victory card sources. How much does Jack stall if one player basically doesn't buy Provinces and constantly hits the Jack deck with ships?

Not really very much, I don't think.  Jack can usually get all 8 Provinces at ~20 turns.  I've done it as quickly as 17 turns.  Jack decks don't really ever stall, since every time you play it, you're adding silver.  And anytime you can't buy a Province, you most likely can buy a Gold.  With Pirate Ships it would take a bit longer.  But certainly not so long that they could gain enough alternate victory points to match it.

[Reyk]

Yes, Geronimoo, olneyce - you are right. He simply buys all the Provinces. I just tried it (by no means perfect play - but enough evidence):

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/30/game-20111130-114728-782e200d.html

Impressive!

[ackack]

Oh, sure, as is so often the case, Fishing Village is stronger here.

Especially if there are other terminals worth playing, Native Village actually meshes very well with Jack too. It becomes much cheaper to build mega-turns with Native Village when you can often play a Jack to draw back up to 5 on the same turn, or if you can do other nifty terminal things before playing the Jack.

[DG]

But I was still concerned about that 15 turn number in front of two alternative victory card sources. How much does Jack stall if one player basically doesn't buy Provinces and constantly hits the Jack deck with ships?

Not much. In this kingdom you can pad out a deck with nobles and festivals and in your game the pirates come in far too late to be effective. The fairgrounds do make a difference since the game is potentially much longer but the good partner cards for the pirate (stables and festivals) are bottlenecked at cost 5, hindering the pirate. If a deck is good enough to buy all those 5 cost cards to support the pirate then it could probably win without a pirate anyway.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

I would like to ask a question to you guys:  Is there any point  at this time to start planning Isodom 3?  Is there enough interest in having a small tourney while the main site tournament is in effect? 

[DG]

Is there enough interest in having a small tourney while the main site tournament is in effect?

Take a break. The BGG league was good while it lasted but it ran too frequently.

[Rabid]

I would be up for another event, but agree a break would be good.
Maybe a 1 day or 1 week event over Xmas week?