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[shark_bait]

Crossposted from BGG

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1000481/the-fourth-pillar-of-boardgaming

I feel the need to include this caveat. Be careful of who you play with. Dominion is a game which can lend itself to people who over-analyze the game and can develop strategies which can absolutely destroy you. This of course sucks all the fun out of the game, so avoid these people when you play. This allowance of enjoyment-sapping engine-obsessed players could be seen as perhaps the games only flaw.

Edit:  I fail at abbreviating BBG vs. BGG

[dondon151]

Oh, scrubs.

[ftl]

Eh, it's true though. Playing a game against someone who takes it seriously and competitively, when you don't, it completely unfun.

It's not limited to Dominion though, that applies to any game with a significant skill component.

[jsh357]

Good ol' BGG.  I started playing Dominion IRL with a really competitive person; she's obsessed with ending up on an even win/loss ratio with me.  I think this reviewer's claim is an overly broad, defeatist statement.  It depends on the player/kingdom.  That said, I understand where he's coming from.  I stopped playing Pokemon just because the metagame had gotten so boring, and Smash Bros has been entirely ruined for me by competitive players driving friends away from wanting to play.

[shark_bait]

The sad part is that it promotes the idea of "ignorance is bliss" in that dominion is "more fun" when you suck at it.  I think all of us can agree that there is something special about getting that HoP megaturn, Watchtower/Talisman/Treasure Map, Ghost Ship/Masquerade, or insert your favorite combo here.  The fun of Dominion comes from improving your play by playing better players even if it means a loss due to a well executed combo.

[LastFootnote]

I stopped playing Pokemon just because the metagame had gotten so boring,

Amen to that.

[Voltaire]

The sad part is that it promotes the idea of "ignorance is bliss" in that dominion is "more fun" when you suck at it.  I think all of us can agree that there is something special about getting that HoP megaturn, Watchtower/Talisman/Treasure Map, Ghost Ship/Masquerade, or insert your favorite combo here.  The fun of Dominion comes from improving your play by playing better players even if it means a loss due to a well executed combo.

And some of my favorite Dominion moments have been when I've been crushed by a combo I've never seen (thinking of the first time I saw a HoP mega-turn) and simply wanted to stand up and applaud my opponent.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Throws are cheap.

[dondon151]

I stopped playing Pokemon just because the metagame had gotten so boring,

I stopped playing Pokemon because there are too many damn Pokemon.

[jsh357]

I stopped playing Pokemon just because the metagame had gotten so boring,

I stopped playing Pokemon because there are too many damn Pokemon.

Which is sort of the problem.  There are over 600, but only 40 or so see use.  (This is one reason I love Dominion; every card gets a chance to shine)

[Stealth Tomato]

If only we had some sort of rating system that could help avoid matches between drastically mismatched players. Perhaps even add some sort of system that allows the highly-rated players to specifically avoid such mismatches when they create a match.

[heron]

every card gets a chance to shine

Challenge: Royal Seal.

[jsh357]

every card gets a chance to shine

Challenge: Royal Seal.

blah blah edge cases blah

[Drab Emordnilap]

Um? I like royal seal a lot. It's not a must buy, but I buy it over other $5s sometimes.

[heron]

Um? I like royal seal a lot. It's not a must buy, but I buy it over other $5s sometimes.

Well yeah, it's a better silver, but I meant a game where you base your entire strategy around royal seal.

[liopoil]

...in a kingdom with treasure map and a strong terminal +buy, maybe wharf? and no +actions or trashing.

[WanderingWinder]

...in a kingdom with treasure map and a strong terminal +buy, maybe wharf? and no +actions or trashing.

You do that. I'll play BM/Wharf.

[Kirian]

If only we had some sort of rating system that could help avoid matches between drastically mismatched players. Perhaps even add some sort of system that allows the highly-rated players to specifically avoid such mismatches when they create a match.

I suspect the reviewer here does not play, and possibly even does not know about online Dominion.

[HiveMindEmulator]

every card gets a chance to shine

Challenge: Royal Seal.

Royal Seal + Counting House combo.

[rrenaud]

I love the obsession with getting better in this community, don't get me wrong.  We are for the most part all Spikes.  We want to win.  We play to win.  Winning, winning, winning!  But there is still room for Johnny and Timmy in Dominion, and I don't think we should necessarily look down on them.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b

[Powerman]

Sounds like he should stick to games where beginners can easily beat experienced players, like Chess, or Go.

[Kirian]

Given the number of posts about megaturns (Timmy) and crazy previously-unseen combos (Johnny), I think there's plenty of room for them on the forum, not just in Dominion.  I guess what there isn't room for is people who want to play Dominion, I guess, to not try to win?

[Awaclus]

Royal Seal is decent in Potion games and games with heavy cursing or trashing attacks.

[HiveMindEmulator]

With most games, if there is a large disparity in skills between players, it's going to be less fun for everyone. But I think if anything, Dominion is more fun in newbie vs serious player than other games. Direct conflict games like fighting games really punish the weaker player much more than Dominion. Like to the point where you can't actually do anything. In Dominion, even if you never win, at least you sometimes get to play some sort of "fun" "combo".

[ftl]

I wouldn't be so sure. In Dominion, if you're being outplayed, you get the scenario where you play a single action and buy a mediocre card, then you wait 5 minutes watching the other player plays a whole long chain of things, shuffles in the middle of their turn, keep playing their actions... ...and then you take another 5-second turn... It can get pretty bad.

[jaybeez]

I love the obsession with getting better in this community, don't get me wrong.  We are for the most part all Spikes.  We want to win.  We play to win.  Winning, winning, winning!  But there is still room for Johnny and Timmy in Dominion, and I don't think we should necessarily look down on them.

I agree that we should not look down on them, but we should most definitely roll our eyes at them when they insinuate that our perspective is somehow "wrong" or fun-destroying.  Because when people make statements like the one in the OP, it's really code for "You're better than me at this game and I don't have the motivation to improve my own skill, but instead of just accepting that fact and getting on with my life, I'm going to demean you so that I can feel better about myself."

[Dsell]

I love the obsession with getting better in this community, don't get me wrong.  We are for the most part all Spikes.  We want to win.  We play to win.  Winning, winning, winning!  But there is still room for Johnny and Timmy in Dominion, and I don't think we should necessarily look down on them.

What I love about Dominion is that very often the best way to win is by being a Johnny or a Timmy. The route to victory is not often clear-cut and adaptability is one of the most important characteristics even for a Spike in this game.

[DG]

Since someone asked for royal seal kingdom: Cellar, Haven, Pearl Diver, Sage, Scheme, Noble Brigand, Thief, Royal Seal, Expand, Possession.

[Awaclus]

Since someone asked for royal seal kingdom: Cellar, Haven, Pearl Diver, Sage, Scheme, Noble Brigand, Thief, Royal Seal, Expand, Possession.

I think Thief should be Sea Hag instead.

[Archetype]

I stopped playing Pokemon just because the metagame had gotten so boring,

Amen to that.

Double Amen.

[ConMan]

I am a Timmy in just about every game I play - I like to win, but I much prefer to see what amazingly crazy things can be done. Even if I had the ability to recognise a BM board I'd still wind up building a completely hopeless engine. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the strategy, and thinking about what cards *do* work together. So apparently no-one should play with me?

[Titandrake]

Weird, I've always thought of Dominion as more of a Johnny/Melvin game than anything else. (Melvin/Vorthos is another axis to the Timmy/Johnny/Spike distinction. Melvin appreciates games for mechanics and actions, whereas Vorthos appreciates games for atmosphere and flavor.) I mean, sure, a lot of people here play Dominion to win (including me), but there's a reason that "Fancy Play Syndrome" is a phrase around here.

What makes Dominion fun for me is the situations where odd, counterintuitive play is actually a good decision. Buying lots of terminals, knowing they're going to collide and not caring. Deliberately gaining a Curse with Torturer when you don't have to, to get closer to a 3-pile. Dominion isn't fun because Embassy-BM or Jack-BM are strong baseline strategies that beat the unprepared. It's fun because I can point to a game where I emptied the Curse pile by buying two 5x Embargoed Villages, or where I bought an Estate 3 turns before the game ended that gave me the winning VP.

I'll agree that putting two people of wildly different skill levels together doesn't exactly make a good game, especially if the game is particularly engine based, but the alternative is a game where your skill level has little control over the outcome of the game, and that's not very good as well. It's fine if you're playing for the experience, but in the end, everyone wants to win sometime.

[NoMoreFun]

When I play on isotropic and goko, I tend to go for engines and do quite decently, but when I play IRL I just buy whatever card seems cool to buy at the time. Different moods I guess.

[dondon151]

I wouldn't be so sure. In Dominion, if you're being outplayed, you get the scenario where you play a single action and buy a mediocre card, then you wait 5 minutes watching the other player plays a whole long chain of things, shuffles in the middle of their turn, keep playing their actions... ...and then you take another 5-second turn... It can get pretty bad.

It does depend on what 5-minute turns are being played, though. If it's like, play 2 5-minute turns and end the game, then that's more of a "wow, that's cool" thing. But if you're like, buying 1 Province at a time and hammering your opponent every turn with a Militia, a Knight, and a Sea Hag (or better yet, a Torturer chain), then that's just depressing.

[SCSN]

Well, you can always just resign...

[Grujah]

@"scrubs"

Exactly.

@Johnny Time Spike:

As MaRo says in his "Reviseted" [ur=http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr220b]article[/url], Timmy doesn't mean "I play big creatures, hur-dur" as many people think. When applied to Dom, it means:

Timmy plays for the enjoyment of the game and fun. He will not by default choose "huge buys/megaturn tactics/" he will choose "fun cards". If KC-KC-Lab-X-X is fun, he will go for that, if spamming Swindlers is fun, he will go for that. If he wins, great. If he had a great time playing the game, the better.

Other archetypes are pretty much straighforward:
Johnny will go for that ridiculous combo that is unlikely to work or that nobody at the table but him saw. If it works, awesome, if not, at least he gave his best shot.

Spike will look at the table, analyze the board and open with Amb/Amb bacause it is OBVIOUSLY the best opening.

-------------

@General
Yeah, Dom is skill intensive so naturally there is a casual vs competitive barrier like in any similar game. Thing with stuff like Magic is, that when I get invited to casual night of magic, I usually do not take out my Tier 1 decks, but borrow something from other casuals.
Now, recently a group got loads of Dominion expansions and I get invited often. Games are always multiplayer and I win often. I cannot downplay, I always give it my best shot. Most of the time I also give my analysis of kingdom before the game.

Thing is, it doesn't matter much. Even if you are winning, the score is not public, and people still compete to be "close" or to get better placement or to at least do awesome stuff / combos / whatever.
 I think there were only 2 games so far where I trashed everybody so bad that that didn't enjoy the game cause if it (and once it happened to me when I underestimated MP Thief).


@Titandrake - getting curse to get closer to three-piling is a pure Spike move.
@ConMan - that's Johnny.


@Conclusion
Imo, bottom line is: article writer is a "Scrub". Somebody who can't/doesn't want to play on a higher level and gets pissed when other do. The "no doing same move 3 times in a row in a fighting game" guy. Can't really do much about it.

[Piemaster]

l
Yeah, Dom is skill intensive so naturally there is a casual vs competitive barrier like in any similar game. Thing with stuff like Magic is, that when I get invited to casual night of magic, I usually do not take out my Tier 1 decks, but borrow something from other casuals.

Yeah I think there's quite a big difference between Dominion and Magic.  In Magic, a tier 1 deck will usually beat down a 'casual deck' so hard that the player with the casual deck will have no fun.  Either the tier 1 deck will win before they've had a chance to play any of the cool spells in their deck, or control elements of their deck will render anything they play completely impotent.  Dominion isn't really like that.  The difference between playing well and playing badly is only usually winning a few turns before the other player would have.  The weaker player will still get a chance to try out his pet cards or fun combos, they just won't get him quite where he wants to be.  That's quite a big difference.

Of course, there are edge cases.  Getting your opponent in a Torturer lockdown or a Masquerade pin can hurt in a way very reminiscent of control/combo decks in Magic.

[ipofanes]

The sad part is that it promotes the idea of "ignorance is bliss" in that dominion is "more fun" when you suck at it. 

Are there games where "ignorance is bliss" holds?

I can think of campaign based games, like Tales of the Arabian Nights. The initial "oh look at that card" moments of Innovation are fun enough that I'm inclined to buy future expansions just to re-live these moments. And there are games where experience leads to more time to think about your moves, which may be taken for AP by your newbie opponents. One Japanese Go sensei visited a European tournament and ended up saying: "Why do you set your clocks to one hour per game? It gives you too much time to think about how to accomplish your goals, when your goals are faulty to begin with. Half an hour per game is plenty."

[Awaclus]

Are there games where "ignorance is bliss" holds?

Many horror RPGs have a book for the GM only which the players absolutely must not read.

[ipofanes]

Are there games where "ignorance is bliss" holds?

Many horror RPGs have a book for the GM only which the players absolutely must not read.

Yes, I already mentioned campaign-based games (which includes Risk Legacy etc.).

[Ratsia]

Are there games where "ignorance is bliss" holds?

Most bad games would actually fall into that category, in particular the ones that are not really balanced. When you play them for the first or second time you will typically enjoy the game, since it probably has some interesting mechanic or at least a new twist or interesting theme. However, if you play a few more times you'll notice that the game is broken. Either there is a superior strategy that always wins (finding that strategy might be fun, but using it rarely is), or the game is simply otherwise way too boring.

Since quite a lot of games actually are bad, the above might well explain some of the "cult of the new" approach to gaming. Even the bad games are interesting when you do not yet know their faults, and when you start realizing them you can just continue to trying out the next new game. I just checked my stats and found out I've played some 250 games for just one time. Many, if not most, of those I did like but I know a lot of  those games would not be fun if I played them more (though I would typically accept a 2nd or 3rd game for most). So, at least for me "ignorance is bliss" holds for gaming in general.