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[ashersky]

I don't think Ash wants to be today's lynch anymore. Do you, ash?

The last two pages have been much better, but if this plan continues, then yes, I want no part of this town.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So because Mafia members are magic, they will manipulate the flips or what?  Your argument makes, as always, 0 sense if you actually think about it, other than that you think ALL PLANS ARE BAD, which is inherently stupid.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Are we assuming Yuma is one of the Mafia members now?

[chairs]

I finally decided to go whole hog instead of simple gut reactions.  Welcome to a chairs Full Read session, where you have Town(+) and Mafia(-) points and everything (oh, and this isn't even everybody - I just have to do more work at work):

Jimmmm - +1/-2
   1. Relatively low post count, mostly agreeing with other people. (-)
   2. Helped clarify a solid hider plan that doesn't immediately out the hider to scum, when other (easier to identify hider with) plans had come about. (+)
   3. Casually mentioned name claiming, which could potentially be to fish names out. (-)

Voltaire - +5/-0
   1. Tracker > vig, and explains why. (+)
   2. Provided clarification on odds for N1 PR results. (+)
   3. Supports a hider plan, given that we come up with a mechanism that minimizes risk of scum identifying the hider. (+)
   4. Thinks the theory talk was helpful (which I agree with). (+)
   5. Posts fairly solid reread of thread (even though he's wrong about me). (+)
   
Robz - +1/-6
   1. Against the Hider planning with a particularly weak reason. (-)
   2. Clarified reason and it's still weak. (No additional points)
   3. Somewhat sarcastic-sounding post regarding hider plan (which he says is stupid later). (-)
   4. Wagons onto Jimm (but only after Voltaire opens). (-)
   5. Discussion regarding faking town meta.  (Null)
   6. Defends ash and argues TA is scummy, argues against hider plan. (-)
   7. Argues that hider plans out the hider by virtue of discussing them (I disagree). (-)
   8. Tracker > Vig. (+)
   9. Says Ashersky should be lynched for Vig > Tracker, but then says it's definitely not scum Ash, makes him look good regardless how Ash flips. (-)
   10. Heavily defending Ashersky over multiple posts. (Null)

raerae - +5/-0
   1. Against claiming. (+)
   2. Against theory talk. (Null) [known raerae opinion, though we disagree on its utility]
   3. Pro-cool-no-claiming-hider-plans. (+)
   4. More "grr I hate theory talk". (Null)
   5. Encourages active participation. (+)
   6. Stands by his statement re: theory talk and calls out liopoil's hider plan as bad (it was definitely not a good one), then votes him. (+)
   7. Argues about Ash's "lynch me please" post, saying it is premature. (Null)
   8. Points out inconsistencies in what liopoil is saying regarding Snow. (+)
   9. Anti-wagons Ashersky. (Null)

liopoil - +3/-3
   1. Anti-nameclaim. (+)
   2. Suggests discussing tracker vs vig, and suggests if we opt vig that we also direct the bullet. (-) [I feel like even if we opt for a vig, which we shouldn't, we shouldn't direct vig bullets]
   3. Pushes his plan as not claiming. (Null)
   4. Recognizes the semi-claim in his plan. (+)
   5. Discusses Vig v tracker and how it interacts, seems to understand why tracker > vig this game, but doesn't push for tracker. (-)
   6. Argument in favor of maximizing PR utility in a method that doesn't reveal them. (+)
   7. FoS on Shraeye/Ashersky/Raerae. (Null)
   8. Calls out posts like Snow's as potential towncred gainer for scum, but says this is probably not a towncred attempt. (-) [I count this poorly because it's kind of wishy-washy]

Twistedarcher - +7/-1
   1. Pro-hider planning. (+)
   2. Suggests the Vig/Tracker should make that decision themselves, rather than us discussing. (-) [Only a negative because we've already suggested we discuss Hider and he responded positively there]
   3. Clarifies with Lio that an important key to hider plan is that the hider not screw up so simplicity is important. (+) [I also felt like Lio's plan was poor in comparison to the simpler one]
   4. Votes for Volt arguing he's being a little too crowd-pleasing. (Null)
   5. Confirms that if he is the Hider, he will be using the most recently described Hider plan which is optimal scum-minimizing while being easy to track results of when Hider dies. (+)
   6. Votes for Ashersky (unvoting Volt) arguing Ash is being significantly anti-town, see post 355. (+) [I agreed with his read on Ashersky at this point in the game, it's very anti-town play.]
   7. Points out the WIFOM when Robz argues that Ash self-lynch has resulted in Ash lynch before, so it can't be scum!Ash. (+)
   8. Argues with Jimm's mention that we should lynch Ash no matter what, suggests if you think Ash is town you shouldn't vote him as we're still early in D1.  This is all while having voted Ash himself. (+)
   9. Continues to argue the Ash's behavior is potentially scum gambit due to people knowing about his prior attempt at same, post 386. (+)
   
Shraeye - +2/-4
   1. Against theory talk, even if it maximizes PR usage effectively. (-)
   2. More anti-theory, "Just vote liopoil". (No Additional Points)
   3. Crappy reasons why theory talk doesn't also help scumhunt, post 263. (-)
   4. Hops on the ashersky wagon, voting in post 288. (Null)
   5. Uses typos as "highly edited" posts to argue against liopoil. (-)
   6. Argues that being polite is scum, post 303. (Null) [Really? Can't we be polite and be town at the same time?]
   7. Same post as 6, suggests nkirbit should be on the anti-theory wagon but isn't and argues that's scummy. (Null)
   8. mcmc typos again being "highly edited", suggests townread on ash for the self-vote gambit. (-)
   9. Calls out Jimm as insincere, with logical reasoning as to why. (+) [I end up still voting for Ash after this, mostly because I'm frustrated with the idea of self-voting]
   10. Votes nkirbit based on reactions to the "shraeye traps" that nkirbit suggests exist. Gives a reasonable explanation as to why. (+)


I'll stick to my numbers and Vote: Robz

[Voltaire]

Don't want to believe me about the plan because you disagree?  Because you don't like my playstyle as Town?  Then believe me because I am a fucking monster as mafia.  Mafia gives fake plans and ideas to town to force them into things.  Mafia takes things that town says and believes and plays them up to their advantage.  Mafia will own you.  I know, because that's what I would do if I was mafia.

Please stop talking about what you don't want us to do and set a good example by playing how you would like us to. That will be more pro-town, and, from what I understand, more fun for some people.

[chairs]

(I will be posting more reads like the above as time permits; I have a prior engagement tonight that may preclude me doing so until tomorrow).

[liopoil]

Wow, umbrage, that is awesome. I'm not sure I agree with your evaluations about everything, but that's a great post. And it actually gives me a fairly large townread on you, just for the effort that I don't think scum would bother with. I'm sure scum will manipulate that though.

What it the 'that' that scum will manipulate?  Your read on Umbrage? The effort that he's putting forth? The details/reads in his list?

Scum will make a super-long post like umbrage's to try to get towncred because scum wouldn't put in the effort. I don't think this is the case but I think scum might try it some time. I shouldn't be giving them ideas though....

At this point dropping the hider thing is a good idea. At the end of the day, everyone can say what plan if any they want to follow.

The bolded is such a contradiction...what are you saying?  Hey, that's a super scummy post but I don't think this guy is scum??  Care to explain both those things?

You and many others are reading my post all wrong. I start off by saying that I read Umbrage as town because of the effort he put in that scum wouldn't. So currently I am giving townreads out for effort. Scum can take advantage of me giving townreads for effort, by just making a giant post. I do not think that Umbrage is scum trying to get towncred for effort in this case.

So, at no point do I suggest that I have a scumread on umbrage, or found any of his posts scummy.

ashersky, no matter how frustrated you are with us for being anti-town, and no matter how stupid you think we are being, self-voting and offering yourself up to be lynched is much much more detrimental to town, if you are town, that is, and I do think that you are.

Oh, and the plan does work. It isn't worded perfectly, and in fact, I don't see why it doesn't just say "I hide behind the player whose # in the player list is my flavor number, and the player after that if that player is dead/me/hid behind previously." But the point is that if it is followed correctly by the hider, we will know who they hid behind if they die tonight.

I need to reread.

[ashersky]

Also weird, is that he's brought up my quote from the beginning of the game multiple times, and finds it scummy, yet doesn't make me a scum read when it's really all I've contributed so far today. It's weird that he's going after people for the plan, yet doesn't find the first person to mention a plan scummy.

Thinking a plan is good is not scummy.  Pushing the plan isn't even scummy at this point.  I gave my scum reads, none of which are based on the plan.

[ashersky]

I feel like Eevee and Jimm at least should understand what I am saying. If yuma was in this game he would absolutely back me up on this.

He would, although he'd policy vote for me for self-voting.

[Voltaire]

I gave my scum reads, none of which are based on the plan.

And they haven't changed since you posted them?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I am so so sick of Ash saying things like he is the only one who wants to win, we don't do any scumhunting, we don't do anything useful, and then contributing NOTHING.  I got so angry, I made a list of all his contributions today.  I've underlined anything remotely helpful or useful.  I'm preparing a more detailed case in a bit.

tl;dr: He makes 5 posts that could in any way be considered useful out of 30, of those 5, 1 is a legit attempt at scumhunting.  And he accuses us of not doing enough!

225Bitches that we have 5 pages of 0 worth, refuses to talk about Hiders, just votes TA for starting the talking about Hiders.
235Corrects Robz's earlier bad example that has already been corrected.  Despite this being a bad example, then insists in all caps that all plans DO NOTHING but help scum.  This logic is terrible and completely unhelpful.
244Admits to skimming some of thread, but reading all the Hider stuff. No content.
245First time stating (with 0 reasoning) that Hiders aren't supposed to be used for catching scum.  Says we're wasting day.
254Hider is not Cop. Hider is not for catching scum. Questioning me about this helps scum. Hider plans give Mafia better chance to doublekill (note: this is what we were trying to minimize, it isn't news.)
257"I'll let others weigh in, I'm done trying.  I'll post again when there's scum hunting to be done."
262[Umbrageofsnow] is new or scum.
271Explains that me questioning about Hider strategy may reveal what he'd do if he were Hider.  First useful post.
275"Stop this speculative talk and we can lynch me today."
278Hasn't seen Jimmmmm in a while.
280Hasn't offered to self-lynch in a while.
284Self-votes.
319"Can everyone please vote for me and end this day?  This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia"
320Eevee is anti-town for only posting 6 times this game (and calling Ash anti-town.)  Except Eevee, you know, actually said something useful.
325Insists there has been ZERO scumhunting and that now it's impossible because there are so many useless posts.  Admittedly does put in my big one as an exception, but it isn't like Ash seems to be trying, just claiming it's impossible.
326Zero scumhunting, we never get anything useful out of long day ones lately, plans and trying to break the setup hurt the town and don't help catch scum.
327Did a complete re-read, accuses TA of rolefishing and trying to manipulate the Hider in his second post, nothing more.
328Bitches about everything being rolefishing until Raerae comes in, doesn't actually add anything.
329Accuses Jimmmmm of being scum for his RVS vote (fine, but didn't we already go through this forever ago?) Says we're destroying our own PRs.
330Points out that I made the first scumread. Complains about all the useless posts again.
331Points out potential problem with people finding people scummy for not agreeing with plans.  Hey look, another actually useful contribution.  But it's about theory.  And in this case, the reason I was saying disagreeing felt anti-town wasn't because they presented logical reasons to disagree but because of blanket refusal to allow us to make good use of PRs, which does seem anti-town to me.  Note: I no longer had much of a scumread on Raerae at this point, and it wasn't ever particularly strong.
333Insists that Hider should just hide behind townreads without providing any way for us to figure it out if they die, giving actively bad advice to a power role.  Unhelpful.  Then insists that Tracker/Vig should choose Vig, just to double-down on the bad advice I guess.
334Actually provides scumreads, holy shit!  They basically amount to Talk theory==Scum, No theory==Town though.
336Acknowledges the bias in the previous post, DOES ACTUAL SCUMHUNTING FOR THE FIRST TIME ALL GAME! Although he does insist Eevee must be scum for arguing, " Whether it is fair or true, you come off scummy when you fight, and towny when you buddy.  Can't break that meta."
339Admits he has been Vig twice and shot wrong twice.  Minorly helpful in that it helps argue that we should ignore his advice.
340Wonders if we have any examples of awesome vigs.
399Us agreeing to what we'd do if Hider infuriates him because he is the only one who wants to win this game (clearly!)  With a chain of bad logic, he assumes we can't see any flips, so that we can't deduce anything from a Hider who dies.  Therefore SCUM WILL USE YOUR PLAN AGAINST YOU.  Mafia would own us, because that's what he would do as mafia.
400If the plan continues, he doesn't want to be part of this town.
407Makes a reasonable defense against something Twistedarcher accused him of.
408Points out that Yuma would probably policy-vote him.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, that was a little long, let me put it another way:

Ashersky's entire contribution to this game so far:

Inversely, I think scum is likely to seem to be against the theory talk...so probably my annoyance at all the theory talk is clouding my town reads.

My scum reads, though, I can define better:

mcmcsalot == first post of the game was "hey I like this Hider plan, do this and do that" and then he had the "this ash is scum ash, too easy vote: ash" and then he was all "wait, that's town ash unvote".  That's the entirety of his game play so far.  This isn't lurky-town-mcmc, which we've all come to know.  This is scum!mcmc with drive by postings.  His flipflop on me was too convenient, and he only switched off after he saw I wasn't going to be the easy lynch.

Jimmmmm == I didn't like the throw-in fake-RVS post in the middle of all the theory talk, which he was thriving in.  I quoted it a bit ago.  His stab at the newbie was too easy, too.  Something scum could do to seem towny.  Also, take-charge Jimmmmm is often scum!Jimmmmm.

Eevee == Argumentative Eevee is always a scum read.  You know that.  Whether it is fair or true, you come off scummy when you fight, and towny when you buddy.  Can't break that meta.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Case Against Ashersky

1. Ash wants to minimize the usefulness of town power roles.
245: Insists that Hiders should not be hiding behind their scum reads or giving town any way to figure out who they hid behind.
254: Hiders are not meant for catching scum.
333: Tell the Tracker/Vig to choose Vig because it is so much better, despite all discussion and evidence to the contrary.  Then repeats that the Hider should leave no way for town to figure out who they hid behind.
399: Comes up with a terrible line of reasoning to decide that we can't learn anything from Hider flips, thus possibly confusing the issue further, both about how Hiders work and about how the game works.  Keeps pushing his bad advice that we should have no plans.

2. Ash has been derailing useful conversation.  Every time he posts some outrageous piece of terrible logic, or self-votes, or whatever else, he makes himself the center of attention again, taking our minds off scumhunting, subtly encouraging both more and much less useful theory talk because of some of us trying to point out that he's not thinking this through.  I've probably been the person most guilty of this, and it makes me feel like maybe I'm helping him win.  Perhaps some of his craziness even developed as a plan because he saw that he had an ability to get me to fly off the handle with bad logic and gross overstatements.  I'm sorry I helped this work.

3. Ash has been insisting, over and over, that we've made no progress, everything is useless. This is a good way to make us less likely to put effort into scumhunting.  It pushes the people who want to get the day over as soon as possible to put less thought into their votes, making us more likely to mislynch.  It gives him more posts, makes him the center of attention, without contributing anything.  See #4.

4. Ash is not even trying to contribute anything remotely helpful.
See Above.  Scum doesn't want to contribute.  His whole play of being angry/annoyed all the time is a great excuse to not help, and occasionally actively hurt our efforts (like when he gives bad advice for the Tracker/Vig.)  It also allows him to add plenty more useless posts to the thread, which he points out make it harder to reread.

5. Ash's only defense is Refuge in Audacity
Ash hasn't even been making this defense himself, instead letting others do it for him while advocating his own lynching.  This is so outrageous, no one can believe scum would dare try such a thing.  It seems like this is a great gambit for scum to take, particularly as (based on his play in this game) Ash seems like exactly the type of person to enjoy ridiculous, over-the-top moves if they have a good chance of success.  I obviously haven't played with him before, but would you old veterans say that's a fair characterization?

As people have pointed out above, not only is this terrible as town, attempting to get yourself mislynched makes no sense as town either, and if he has a history of doing things like this as town, which seems to be what people are saying, that makes it an even less risky gambit as scum.  Additionally, this takes attention off his teammates, making us less likely to focus on things other players are doing.

Additionally, his calling out that if he were scum, he'd crush us and just how audacious that post is seems to be doubling down on the so-scummy-he-can't-possibly-be-scum defense, which I refuse to buy.

It's not a slam-dunk, but I'm completely on-board with lynching Ashersky.

[ashersky]

It's not a slam-dunk, but I'm completely on-board with lynching Ashersky.

Me too.

[ashersky]

I am so so sick of Ash saying things like he is the only one who wants to win, we don't do any scumhunting, we don't do anything useful, and then contributing NOTHING.  I got so angry, I made a list of all his contributions today.  I've underlined anything remotely helpful or useful.  I'm preparing a more detailed case in a bit.

tl;dr: He makes 5 posts that could in any way be considered useful out of 30, of those 5, 1 is a legit attempt at scumhunting.  And he accuses us of not doing enough!

225Bitches that we have 5 pages of 0 worth, refuses to talk about Hiders, just votes TA for starting the talking about Hiders.
235Corrects Robz's earlier bad example that has already been corrected.  Despite this being a bad example, then insists in all caps that all plans DO NOTHING but help scum.  This logic is terrible and completely unhelpful.
244Admits to skimming some of thread, but reading all the Hider stuff. No content.
245First time stating (with 0 reasoning) that Hiders aren't supposed to be used for catching scum.  Says we're wasting day.
254Hider is not Cop. Hider is not for catching scum. Questioning me about this helps scum. Hider plans give Mafia better chance to doublekill (note: this is what we were trying to minimize, it isn't news.)
257"I'll let others weigh in, I'm done trying.  I'll post again when there's scum hunting to be done."
262[Umbrageofsnow] is new or scum.
271Explains that me questioning about Hider strategy may reveal what he'd do if he were Hider.  First useful post.
275"Stop this speculative talk and we can lynch me today."
278Hasn't seen Jimmmmm in a while.
280Hasn't offered to self-lynch in a while.
284Self-votes.
319"Can everyone please vote for me and end this day?  This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia"
320Eevee is anti-town for only posting 6 times this game (and calling Ash anti-town.)  Except Eevee, you know, actually said something useful.
325Insists there has been ZERO scumhunting and that now it's impossible because there are so many useless posts.  Admittedly does put in my big one as an exception, but it isn't like Ash seems to be trying, just claiming it's impossible.
326Zero scumhunting, we never get anything useful out of long day ones lately, plans and trying to break the setup hurt the town and don't help catch scum.
327Did a complete re-read, accuses TA of rolefishing and trying to manipulate the Hider in his second post, nothing more.
328Bitches about everything being rolefishing until Raerae comes in, doesn't actually add anything.
329Accuses Jimmmmm of being scum for his RVS vote (fine, but didn't we already go through this forever ago?) Says we're destroying our own PRs.
330Points out that I made the first scumread. Complains about all the useless posts again.
331Points out potential problem with people finding people scummy for not agreeing with plans.  Hey look, another actually useful contribution.  But it's about theory.  And in this case, the reason I was saying disagreeing felt anti-town wasn't because they presented logical reasons to disagree but because of blanket refusal to allow us to make good use of PRs, which does seem anti-town to me.  Note: I no longer had much of a scumread on Raerae at this point, and it wasn't ever particularly strong.
333Insists that Hider should just hide behind townreads without providing any way for us to figure it out if they die, giving actively bad advice to a power role.  Unhelpful.  Then insists that Tracker/Vig should choose Vig, just to double-down on the bad advice I guess.
334Actually provides scumreads, holy shit!  They basically amount to Talk theory==Scum, No theory==Town though.
336Acknowledges the bias in the previous post, DOES ACTUAL SCUMHUNTING FOR THE FIRST TIME ALL GAME! Although he does insist Eevee must be scum for arguing, " Whether it is fair or true, you come off scummy when you fight, and towny when you buddy.  Can't break that meta."
339Admits he has been Vig twice and shot wrong twice.  Minorly helpful in that it helps argue that we should ignore his advice.
340Wonders if we have any examples of awesome vigs.
399Us agreeing to what we'd do if Hider infuriates him because he is the only one who wants to win this game (clearly!)  With a chain of bad logic, he assumes we can't see any flips, so that we can't deduce anything from a Hider who dies.  Therefore SCUM WILL USE YOUR PLAN AGAINST YOU.  Mafia would own us, because that's what he would do as mafia.
400If the plan continues, he doesn't want to be part of this town.
407Makes a reasonable defense against something Twistedarcher accused him of.
408Points out that Yuma would probably policy-vote him.

A lot of this is true, but you've buried some lies in there.  I'll bold one for you.

Show me how that post is the same as "talk theory = scum and no theory = town."  That's the second time someone mischaracterized that post that way.  Yes, I complained about theory ad naseum.  I did not equate that with scum.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think that given how much I love both claiming AND plans, the fact that I am against this should be a clear sign just how bad it is.

I somehow missed this one in my big index above.  It's interesting that he claims to love plans, and yet after this is constantly arguing that all plans are awful and do nothing but help scum.

It's also interesting that he makes an argument from authority here, like he's the expert on crazy plans, but has no logic to back up why it should be bad, and dodges or puts up a wall of bullshit when pressed.

And if he loves plans so much, why should we doubt that when he suddenly acts extremely anti-town and that would point at him being either extremely crazy/audacious scum or really bad, poorly thought out town, we are supposed to assume he's poorly thought out town rather than brilliant scum.

[ashersky]

I would point out that the last three pages where you all discuss me has been much, much, much more useful to town than the 14 that came before it building your plan.

I think the stances people have taken on me, the people conspicuously quiet, the ones that defend me, the ones that think I'm scum...that's all useful stuff to analyze once you see my flip and know if I'm town or mafia.

[ashersky]

I think that given how much I love both claiming AND plans, the fact that I am against this should be a clear sign just how bad it is.

I somehow missed this one in my big index above.  It's interesting that he claims to love plans, and yet after this is constantly arguing that all plans are awful and do nothing but help scum.

It's also interesting that he makes an argument from authority here, like he's the expert on crazy plans, but has no logic to back up why it should be bad, and dodges or puts up a wall of bullshit when pressed.

And if he loves plans so much, why should we doubt that when he suddenly acts extremely anti-town and that would point at him being either extremely crazy/audacious scum or really bad, poorly thought out town, we are supposed to assume he's poorly thought out town rather than brilliant scum.

Go read the opening of Masons and Monks.

In that game, I had a plan.  It would have caught scum, it turns out, although we couldn't know that at the time.  Everyone lambasted it, told me how bad it was for town.  I fought for the plan.  We got steamrolled by mafia.

Now, given that experience, I've always been super aware of the possibility of plans and such. 



Let me ask you, and all your planners out there:

If there was such a plan out there for Hiders that it allows Town to just catch scum like that, why isn't it common knowledge, and why are Hiders allowed in games?

I mean, Cops catch scum right?  Trackers/Watchers catch scum.  But even then, it's not 100%.  Mean Girls, I track mcmc, catch scum.  Whoops, nope, I lied.

So now, you think you have this plan where you can just auto-lynch someone based on a numbering system that is inherently flawed (due to being undefined) and boom scumdeadbebopboop.  But it doesn't work that way.  IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

[Twistedarcher]

The plan only works because there I a list of flavor names 1-13. Normally the hider plan would greatly increase the risk of two night kills. Here it doesn't.

[Eevee]

Why are cops allowed? They catch scum too!

Ashersky, you are being unreasonable here. You just are. I don't see why you'd act this way as town.

[Voltaire]

Vote: ashersky

Policy vote.

We cannot encourage intentional anti-town play. We cannot allow self-voting. That's not fun, and it does not help town win (by definition). UoS has a very good post summarizing why ash may also, in fact, be scum. Hence, my comfort in casting this vote, though it is mostly based on the fact that town does not benefit long-term by this sort of nonsense.

I've gotten enough reads out of today that I think town doesn't lose too much in this specific game, and I'm comfortable with the long-term gain.

Ash, I asked you to start playing how you'd like us to play. You didn't change your style. I cannot see how you are possibly helping town in this game if you are town.

[ashersky]

1. Ash wants to minimize the usefulness of town power roles.

Nope.  I want to MAXIMIZE the usefulness of Town PRs and MINIMIZE the amount of power we give scum over them.

2. Ash has been derailing useful conversation.

Nope.  All the theory/planning talk is useless conversation, and I'm bringing you all back to useful conversation.  I'm derailing useless in exchange for useful.

3. Ash has been insisting, over and over, that we've made no progress, everything is useless.

Nope.  Since you've all focused on reads (mostly of me, but by extension, how people view me), we've made progress.  That stuff is useful.

4. Ash is not even trying to contribute anything remotely helpful.

Nope.  I've contributed a lot.  Some of it is ire and rage at the plan.  Mostly it's giving you all something useful to talk about that doesn't help scum defeat us.  Also, a few reads based on what I've noticed.

5. Ash's only defense is Refuge in Audacity

Nope.  I haven't defended myself against anything (yet) because I'm guilty of nothing.  Fancy quote, by the way.  Why would town feel the need to quote outside sources to prop up their straw man?


Sorry UoS, I think you wrote yourself into a corner.  You went from awesomely zealous newbie into overreaching scum in a few angry posts.

[ashersky]

The plan only works because there I a list of flavor names 1-13. Normally the hider plan would greatly increase the risk of two night kills. Here it doesn't.

Do people even read?

If I am #13 on the list and I am flavor #10, tell me who I hide behind.  I have two legitimate answers for you which are both "correct" under your plan, and that is just one of many reasons WHY IT DOES NOT WORK.

You MAY incorrectly lynch people based on a flawed plan.  That's why I am fighting so hard.

[ashersky]

Why are cops allowed? They catch scum too!

Ashersky, you are being unreasonable here. You just are. I don't see why you'd act this way as town.

Because they aren't broken.  They can be fake-claimed.  They can be Godfathered.

A role that insta-catches scum with no drawbacks (that's a Hider with a foolproof plan, btw) is broken.

[ashersky]

Vote: ashersky

Policy vote.

We cannot encourage intentional anti-town play. We cannot allow self-voting. That's not fun, and it does not help town win (by definition). UoS has a very good post summarizing why ash may also, in fact, be scum. Hence, my comfort in casting this vote, though it is mostly based on the fact that town does not benefit long-term by this sort of nonsense.

I've gotten enough reads out of today that I think town doesn't lose too much in this specific game, and I'm comfortable with the long-term gain.

Ash, I asked you to start playing how you'd like us to play. You didn't change your style. I cannot see how you are possibly helping town in this game if you are town.

That's fine.

I am playing how I want everyone else to play.  Stop thinking about your egos, stop thinking you are all so perfect, and start thinking about what we need to do to win this game.