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[ashersky]

Can everyone please vote for me and end this day?  This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia (well, since MX, when I first started playing).

The worst??  Seriously??  DS9 was a million times worse than this.  If you want us to kill you then at least give us full reads first.

What part of DS9?  Not D1.  D1 had plenty of scumhunting (right or wrong).  This D1?  ZERO.  The best anyone can do is vote for me.  That's how AMAZINGLY AWESOME this D1 has been so far.  I dare you to go back and try to scumhunt with what's been produced so far.

(An exception is made for UoS's mega-posts, which are clearly helpful.)

[ashersky]

Can everyone please vote for me and end this day?  This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia (well, since MX, when I first started playing).

Why am I not seeing the problem? Am I just being dumb? Like, I'm thinking this is a fine day 1 and I have no clue what you are talking about. This is so weird.

Again, zero scumhunting here.  This has been plaguing our games here recently.  Incredibly long D1s with not a lot of content to analyze.

I know, I was always a big claiming/plans/break the set-up guy.  It distracts and hurts town way more than defeats scum.

[ashersky]

Re-read all for you.

Here's the second post of the game.  "Let's skip RVS and role fish.  I think I want to be able to direct the Hider.  If you are the Hider, let me find a way to subltely force you to confirm yourself and/or do what I want."

Hi everyone, blah blah RVS blah blah.

Here's what I really want to talk about, I thought about this during signups and stuff:

Hider seems like a really interesting role. Either he makes an IC, or he dies behind a mafia / vigilante. Of course, if he dies behind a mafia / vigilante, that's useless for town unless we knew who he was hiding behind.

Would it be beneficial for town if, before the end of the day, everyone posted a list of who they would hide behind, if they were the hider? With everyone saying this, there would be 10 townies saying who they'd hide behind, if they were the hider. This would hopefully be enough to give scum little information on who the hider was. Another option we could do, rather than each person choosing, is to simply go up or down the signup list. This has the advantage of covering the hider's tracks better, but probably makes it harder to find a scum to hide behind.

I just feel that if Hider hides behind scum N1, without a way for us to figure out who that scum is, Hider potentially becomes a negative-utility role. If hider dies N1, though, we can look at our list, and work backwards to see who he hid behind, and know that that person is more than likely scum.

I've never played with hider before, so maybe this has been tried before and proven to be a terrible idea, but I don't think it is.

[ashersky]

Goodness gracious some of those names are hard to read. Any thoughts on name claiming?

For now I'm just happy to be playing again and glad that I don't have to worry about being scum on my first game back.

NO CLAIMING!!  Those, as always, are my thoughts on that subject.

Then, a voice of reason 20 POSTS later.  That's right, 20 posts of Hider role fishing theory talk until we get this.

[ashersky]

Oh um RVS, that's right.

Um, Vote: Umbrage for making too much sense for a newbie. Obviously has vets whispering in his ear telling him what to say.

ScumJimmmmm realizes maybe he should at least act like he doesn't love the way town is destroying its own PRs.

[ashersky]

If I had to have a scumread it would be on raerae for refusing to work with any kind of plan, since that denies town information, but I gather from your responses that that's pretty standard for raerae.

First ever scumread of the game.  Welcome to mafia games, rest of town.  Page 8, after hundreds of theory posts.

[ashersky]

I come in on Page 10 (really, Page 10!!!) with this, after 5 pages of theory/hider/vig/tracker role fishing.  5 pages in which there was a grand total of ONE READ placed by anyone.  That's UoS on raerae for not agreeing to a plan.

Which, by the way, is ANOTHER issue with these plans.  You find people scummy when they disagree.  "Oh, you don't like my perfect plan?  You MUST be scum."  Remember me thinking people were scum for not agreeing with me?  That's this, all over again.

Weekend starts suck.  I'll be barely around until my Monday (your Sunday night).

vote: all of you for creating 5 pages of text that has zero worth as far as scum hunting goes.

You all realize we can just TELL the trackerlante which one to choose TONIGHT given the CHOICE is MADE on N1? 

As for all that Hider talk, I'm anti Hider talk, and won't do it.

Real vote: TA for starting the game off with theory/hider talk, which amounts to so much rolefishing it isn't even funny.  And for ensuring we had no RVS from which to enter into scumhunting.

[Eevee]

So, in summary, everyone is scum for not playing in a way you deem best, and the only thing to do is just to lynch YOU because of it?

Ash, you may very well have a point, but you are not getting it across very well..

Fwiw a big reason for my low post count (and actually not wanting to play all the games anymore too) is that I don't think the topics of discussion have been super interesting for me personally, but my reaction to it is to stick to playing simpler games - not to call everyone scum and ask to be lynched.

[ashersky]

Since then, at least we had some arguments and finger-pointing.  Still more theory talk, of course.

Here's my theory for this set-up:

Hider: hide behind towny people that don't die, create ICs.  Help town see that they are town without saying they are town.  If needed, reveal the IC(s) to help narrow down the pool of possible scum.

Oh wait, I JUST RUINED IT FOR EVERYONE.  That's how Hider can really help town.  Creating ICs.  NOT catching scum.  Because to catch scum, you have to DIE, and there are multiple ways to die.  And we don't know who the Hider hid behind.

Tracker/Vig:  Choose Vig.  Really.  Two town directed deaths a cycle.  Just don't shoot the Bomb.

[ashersky]

So, in summary, everyone is scum for not playing in a way you deem best, and the only thing to do is just to lynch YOU because of it?

Ash, you may very well have a point, but you are not getting it across very well..

Fwiw a big reason for my low post count (and actually not wanting to play all the games anymore too) is that I don't think the topics of discussion have been super interesting for me personally, but my reaction to it is to stick to playing simpler games - not to call everyone scum and ask to be lynched.

Where did I "call everyone scum"?  I called a few folks scummy, sure.  But everyone?

My scum reads from 100% scum to 0% scum:

mcmcsalot > Jimmmmm > Eevee > everyone > raerae > shraeye > Robz > ashersky

[Eevee]

Fair enough. I notice (apart from myself) you have the guys who don't talk theory on the right, and the guys who do (minus Snow) on the left. Coincidence / do you think your disagreement on the issue might cloud your judgement? Or is it just that scum is more likely to want to talk theory in your opinion?

[ashersky]

Fair enough. I notice (apart from myself) you have the guys who don't talk theory on the right, and the guys who do (minus Snow) on the left. Coincidence / do you think your disagreement on the issue might cloud your judgement? Or is it just that scum is more likely to want to talk theory in your opinion?

Inversely, I think scum is likely to seem to be against the theory talk...so probably my annoyance at all the theory talk is clouding my town reads.

My scum reads, though, I can define better:

mcmcsalot == first post of the game was "hey I like this Hider plan, do this and do that" and then he had the "this ash is scum ash, too easy vote: ash" and then he was all "wait, that's town ash unvote".  That's the entirety of his game play so far.  This isn't lurky-town-mcmc, which we've all come to know.  This is scum!mcmc with drive by postings.  His flipflop on me was too convenient, and he only switched off after he saw I wasn't going to be the easy lynch.

Jimmmmm == I didn't like the throw-in fake-RVS post in the middle of all the theory talk, which he was thriving in.  I quoted it a bit ago.  His stab at the newbie was too easy, too.  Something scum could do to seem towny.  Also, take-charge Jimmmmm is often scum!Jimmmmm.

Eevee == Argumentative Eevee is always a scum read.  You know that.  Whether it is fair or true, you come off scummy when you fight, and towny when you buddy.  Can't break that meta.

[Eevee]

Good points about mcmc and Jimm, agree on both your observations and the conclusions you made about them.

I haven't really been much anything in this game really (and I want to say it's largely because of the theory talk I'm just not good at). I wouldn't call myself argumentative, you should understand that your self-vote was very frustrating for town. I like this ash much more, the one that actually plays the game and makes good reads!

[Robz888]

Okay, well, ashersky should be lynched for opining that TrackerVig should choose Vig. As a former vig-who-shot-wrong, he should know better.

But anyway, this is not scum ashersky right? Because he could have just decided to *not* do everything he is doing now to antagonize everyone and get lynched.

[ashersky]

Okay, well, ashersky should be lynched for opining that TrackerVig should choose Vig. As a former vig-who-shot-wrong, he should know better.

Twice.  I have been a Vig who shot wrong TWICE.

Waffles Mafia I killed Cayvie and took Eevee with me when mafia killed me.  In Innovation I shot the Bomb.  The Bomb.  I shot the freaking Bomb.

[ashersky]

Don't we have examples of awesome vigs, too?

[Jimmmmm]

Jimmmmm == I didn't like the throw-in fake-RVS post in the middle of all the theory talk, which he was thriving in.  I quoted it a bit ago.  His stab at the newbie was too easy, too.  Something scum could do to seem towny.  Also, take-charge Jimmmmm is often scum!Jimmmmm.

The last part may have merit, although bear in mind that this is my first game for a while, and the only one I'm in.

The "throw-in fake-RVS" was because I noticed no one had voted yet and remembered that's what you normally do at the start of the game. I figured I'd probably receive some suspicion from it and hoped I'd be able to get some clues about those "suspecting" me. I hoped Townies would see the "stab at the "newbie" as an obvious joke and scum would see it as an opportunity to start a case on someone.

Okay, well, ashersky should be lynched for opining that TrackerVig should choose Vig. As a former vig-who-shot-wrong, he should know better.

This. Vig is generally marginal at best, but in this game it essentially has Miller built in. The small chance to hit scum with a NK is nothing compared to majorly screwing over the other Town PRs.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay you can call me anti town for lurking and if you want to argue for lynch all lurkers then fine. But using the mcmc is being lurks scum mcmc is just stupid I have been lurky every single game since my job started literally. I am now more so since I went full time. Now it's fine to lynch lurkers but don't try to make it more reasonable to vote me for lurking since I used to post alot.

As far as my flip flop on you ash, it's because I personally feel you are playing much more anti own than anyone else because your doing your usual get everybody riled up thing which gives you a huge post count, forces the conversation where you want it to go, and creates arguments. Like I said I think this is super at I town and makes you the center of all attention and
Now your lynch will be debated constantly killing future scum hunting. I mean scum hunting will come naturally out of rvs or theory talk, you brute forcing scum hunting by saying hey! Scum hunt right now! Isn't actually going to create helpful scum hunting. So immediately I notice the detriment you are being to town and vote you, then reread and saw there was a bit more frustration in your posts than I expected, and I know that town ash thinks doing all those things is a great helpful thing to do so. Even though I disagree with your opinion on their talk, your opinion on tracker/vig, and your opinion I how to go about scum hunting. I think your just town doing what you think will help.

[mcmcsalot]

Also, once and for all tracker is better.

Vig has 3 options.
Shoot scum: yay that's awesome
Shoot vt: this kinda sucks as can screw town
Shoot town pr: game endingly terrible for town

Tracker has 3 options.
Track scum: if you see them nk, it's almost as good as vig, if you don't it means nothing
Track vt: means nothing because you get negative result
Track pr: great for town

There best options are the same, tracker is a bit harder to pull off but can't destroy town.

[shraeye]

Like I said I think this is super at I town and makes you the center of all attention and
Now your lynch will be debated constantly killing future scum hunting.

This first part of your sentence on why ash is anti-town scum doesn't make sense.  like liopoil's post before, this was highly edited, and therefore suspicious.

Additionally, ashersky's lynch being debated constantly is exactly why this is a risky move for any scum to make.  I get a small townread for the exact same reasons you're calling him scummy.


ALSO ADDITIONALLY, answer my freakin' question:

nkirbit/liopoil/xxxxx is the scumteam!

Add volt and I'm down!

Why Volt?  I haven't noticed anything bothersome from him yet.

[shraeye]

Ah, I see I got my ideas of mcmc's reads incorrect.  Regardless, answer that question, bud.

[raerae]

Wow, umbrage, that is awesome. I'm not sure I agree with your evaluations about everything, but that's a great post. And it actually gives me a fairly large townread on you, just for the effort that I don't think scum would bother with. I'm sure scum will manipulate that though.

What it the 'that' that scum will manipulate?  Your read on Umbrage? The effort that he's putting forth? The details/reads in his list?

Scum will make a super-long post like umbrage's to try to get towncred because scum wouldn't put in the effort. I don't think this is the case but I think scum might try it some time. I shouldn't be giving them ideas though....

At this point dropping the hider thing is a good idea. At the end of the day, everyone can say what plan if any they want to follow.

The bolded is such a contradiction...what are you saying?  Hey, that's a super scummy post but I don't think this guy is scum??  Care to explain both those things?

[Voltaire]

Can everyone please vote for me and end this day?  This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia (well, since MX, when I first started playing).

Why am I not seeing the problem? Am I just being dumb? Like, I'm thinking this is a fine day 1 and I have no clue what you are talking about. This is so weird.

Me too! Some people started rather over-the-top protests against the theory talk, but other than that, things seem to be progressing quite reasonably. I'm trying to decide what it means that some people are trying to paint this day as terrible.

[chairs]

Tracker > Vig.

Hider should use the most recent hidey-hole plan that was posted because it's friggin' nifty in that it's hard to deduce the hider out of it, but easy to deduce who they died behind once they die.

Ashersky is either the most gambity scum or the most frustrated town I've seen short of people who quit a game - Others argue this makes him town, but I kind of feel like we ought to just lynch him since he has literally asked for it.

Scum to chum (I'm at work, sorry for the lack of reasons) - note that none of this should be considered a "strong" read:

liopoil
ashersky
jimmmmm
eevee
<other people not listed>
umbrage
robz
(myself)

[Eevee]

I think shraeye's "there is a sentence in your post that doesn't make sense, therefore the post was highly edited, therefore the author is scum" is wrong on multiple levels.