Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]

Author Topic: "Fixing" cards that you don't like  (Read 18591 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11817
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12870
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
"Fixing" cards that you don't like
« on: May 08, 2013, 11:57:22 am »
+1

I think we've had discussion on making weak cards more powerful, but I don't remember a thread about changing cards without the purpose of making them more powerful or weaker, just changing them so that you personally would enjoy games with it more. The title says "cards that you don't like", but you can also improve cards that you already like.


Lighthouse
$3 Action - Duration
Now and at the start of your next turn:
+1 Buy
+$1
___
While this is in play, when another player plays an attack card, it doesn't affect you.

The problem I have with Lighthouse is that it isn't terminal. You can piledrive them if you want and they'll never collide. The thing that I like about Moat and Watchtower is that they increase player interaction, but I feel like Lighthouse actually decreases player interaction, because you can't interact with someone who always has a Lighthouse in play. Also, Lighthouse isn't very good in games without attack cards. Therefore, I replaced the +1 Action with something that sometimes makes you want to buy Lighthouse even when there are no attacks: +1 Buy. This version is almost better than Woodcutter, so I felt like I had to increase the price.


Goons
$6 Action
+1 Buy
+$2
You may trash up to two treasure cards from your hand.
___
While this is in play, when you buy a card, +1VP

The attack part of Goons feels slightly out of place and it really hurts when you get your first $6 hand hit by your opponent's Goons. Trashing possibly makes getting an early Goons even more important, but at least it doesn't make your opponents' early Goons buys less likely to happen. Also, it makes buying Coppers for the +VP more attractive (though still often a trap), because it has a built-in way to get rid of them.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

gman314

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 589
  • Respect: +281
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2013, 01:48:07 pm »
0

I think Transmute for $4 would be an awesome card.
Logged

Drab Emordnilap

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1832
  • Shuffle iT Username: Drab Emordnilap
  • Luther Bell Hendricks V
  • Respect: +1887
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2013, 04:02:26 pm »
+1

I would cost Familiar at $P.
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2013, 04:12:25 pm »
0

I would cost Familiar at $P.

Would be swingy with cheap +Buy in the kingdom, because colliding Woodcutter and Potion would probably give you Familiar+Silver, while the opponent is stucked with Familiar or Silver (probably familiar) and you have twice the economy they have (two Silvers to their one) just because of that collision. Probably less swingy than the current 3P, but I would still try 2P or maybe 1P, which is pretty rare not to get if your second opening buy is something that either gives money or replaces it-self. Also, making it just $P would make the Familiar pile a cheap do-nothing cantrip if you have the Buys, so its a pile that will quickly go down in engine games with +Buy, which are already pretty fast to have 2 piles (Familiar and Curses) emptied in less than 10 turns.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2860
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 01:04:27 am »
0

Transmute is too powerful at 4$.  It's more balanced at 2-3$.
Logged

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2707
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 01:39:07 am »
0

Familiar - Action, $P

+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player gains a curse.
---------
You may not buy this after another card, and you may not buy another card after buying this one.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3413
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 01:50:43 am »
0

Tournament: Make all the prizes the same, like 5 Trusty Steeds or something, it will still be a good card because of its early Peddler ability.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3296
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4443
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 08:49:09 am »
0

Tournament: Make all the prizes the same, like 5 Trusty Steeds or something, it will still be a good card because of its early Peddler ability.

This is kind of like saying Masquerade would be better if it were "+2 cards; you may trash a card from your hand".
Logged

NoMoreFun

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2013
  • Respect: +2131
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2013, 09:31:19 am »
+2

I've posted most of these elsewhere, but:

Transmute
Action - $P
(Same effect as before)
---
When you gain this, +1 buy

It significantly lowers the opportunity cost of getting one, and gives a little perk to the treasure trashing option should you choose to take it. Also it's probably the only chance the game has at putting this when gain effect on a card (putting on a card without a potion cost means you can make a run on the pile with enough Highways etc.).

Fortress
Action - $4
+1 Card
+2 Actions
---
When you gain or trash this, put it in your hand.

If any card should work this way, it's fortress.

Marauder
Action/Attack - $4
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile
Each other player gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand

I like the tradeoff between short term and long term.

Inn
Action - $5
+2 Cards
Discard any number of cards, +1 action for each card you discard this way
---
When you gain this, you may look through your discard pile (including this), reveal any number of Action cards from it, and shuffle them into your deck.

More variety, and more thematic on top (the more "time" you spend at the inn, the more you can do), and the bottom cuts down on unnecessary shuffling.

Farming Village
Action - $4
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action or Treasure card. Put all the revealed cards in your hand.

It's simpler, more interesting and slightly more thematic.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 09:37:16 am by NoMoreFun »
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9709
  • Respect: +10765
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 09:42:36 am »
0

Inn
Action - $5
+2 Cards
Discard any number of cards, +1 action for each card you discard this way
---
When you gain this, you may look through your discard pile (including this), reveal any number of Action cards from it, and shuffle them into your deck.

More variety, and more thematic on top (the more "time" you spend at the inn, the more you can do), and the bottom cuts down on unnecessary shuffling.
I agree it would be fun, but probably way too powerful. The ability to get lots of actions in a draw-your-deck engine... 1 or 2 of these, and you don't need any other Villages. Also, simply +2 cards, +1 action, Discard a card is probably pretty good sifting.

When are you shuffling unnecessarily though? If you don't add any actions to your deck, and you didn't have any knowledge about the order of your deck, then you've already successfully shuffled before your first riffle... the definition of shuffling is randomizing your deck so that the order of cards isn't known. That has been accomplished... no one I know of would ever force you to actually shuffle redundantly in the situation, you've already met the requirements.

Quote
Farming Village
Action - $2
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action or Treasure card. Put all the revealed cards in your hand.

It's simpler, more interesting and slightly more thematic.

Um, that Farming Village is a good bit better than the regular one, and costs way less? :o

*Edit* I see you fixed the cost. I still think it needs to be a $5, though.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 09:54:44 am by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 09:47:35 am »
0

New Farming Village is waaay too powerful. Is strictly superior to regular Village, strictly superior to Scout and it costs $2? I think even at $4 it would be overpowered, although it would be bad at $5.

Why people do not like FV? I like it as it is.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9709
  • Respect: +10765
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2013, 09:54:07 am »
0

New Farming Village is waaay too powerful. Is strictly superior to regular Village, strictly superior to Scout and it costs $2? I think even at $4 it would be overpowered, although it would be bad at $5.

Why people do not like FV? I like it as it is.

Looks like the $2 was a typo. I still agree it's too god for $4. It might work as a $5. It's not strictly better than Scout though... if it finds an action on top, it was just a regular Village. You might still have 3 green cards below it that are stuck there for your next draws; Scout would have picked those up (plus just the rearranging ability for when you don't find green).
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

NoMoreFun

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2013
  • Respect: +2131
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2013, 10:20:58 am »
0

New Farming Village is waaay too powerful. Is strictly superior to regular Village, strictly superior to Scout and it costs $2? I think even at $4 it would be overpowered, although it would be bad at $5.

Why people do not like FV? I like it as it is.

Looks like the $2 was a typo. I still agree it's too god for $4. It might work as a $5. It's not strictly better than Scout though... if it finds an action on top, it was just a regular Village. You might still have 3 green cards below it that are stuck there for your next draws; Scout would have picked those up (plus just the rearranging ability for when you don't find green).

Remembering that Scout is a dramatically underpowered card, it's also completely different. Scout can draw many great halls and rearrange the other cards to ensure a good draw. New Farming Village can't do either of those things.

The difference between new and old Farming Village is that it gives you more dead cards in hand to discard or trash, and also some nice combos with Baron and Crossroads. It also does worse with Tunnel and Draw to X cards. The effect is going to be very subtle in either case, and I think that Farming Village can afford to have its effect be more pronounced.

If it did prove to be overpowered on Farming Village, I'd give it to Vagrant. I like how almost every $2 card can be really powerful in some situations, so cards like Pearl Diver and Vagrant stick out.
Logged

gman314

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 589
  • Respect: +281
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2013, 11:23:23 am »
+1

Transmute is too powerful at 4$.  It's more balanced at 2-3$.

Wait, what? Making it cheaper so you can open with double Transmute makes it more balanced?!?!?! I'm not sure I understand your logic.


On a completely unrelated note, I think a good change to Fortress would be to put 20 in the supply, and then have the effect be "When you trash this, gain a Fortress, putting it into your hand."
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2013, 12:43:19 pm »
0

Transmute is too powerful at 4$.  It's more balanced at 2-3$.

Wait, what? Making it cheaper so you can open with double Transmute makes it more balanced?!?!?! I'm not sure I understand your logic.

I doubt opening double Transmute would be wise.
Logged

Fragasnap

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 440
  • Respect: +703
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2013, 12:58:44 pm »
0

Most of the cards I don't like are cards that completely overrun games like Goons and Wharf.
Wharf

+1 Buy
Now and at the start of your next turn: +2 Cards
$5 ACTION - DURATION
The double Laboratory next turn is good enough without giving you a Buy. If you stock up on Wharves (as you probably will), you can probably just play another Wharf anyway, but this nerf would at least slow it down a bit.
Cultist

+2 Cards
You may play a Cultist from your hand.
Otherwise, each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, +3 Cards
$5 ACTION - ATTACK - LOOTER
Cultists chain and then immediately drain the Ruins pile. This way you have to spend an Action for each Ruins given out which makes them much slower at junking decks, but they retain everything else that's so much fun about them.
Fishing Village

+2 Actions
+$1

At the start of your next turn: +1 Action.
$3 ACTION - DURATION
Fishing Village turns a game into a crazy smorgasbord of actions. That's great: That's fine. The problem is that it provides coins both turns which makes it far too safe to piledrive. If it didn't provide that extra coin the next turn it would be brought back in check and much less safe to stack.

...and cards that are too weak to often be useful.
Scout
+2 Actions
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Curses
and
Victory cards into your hand and the rest back in any order.
$4 ACTION
Scout really wants to work in an engine by cleaning off the top of your deck, but it (in most games) only draws junk cards (but not Curses) and doesn't give you anything else. By giving extra actions and cleaning the Curses off the deck, this would probably become a decent card rather than the brunt of Dominion jokes.
Adventurer
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 3 Treasures.
Put 2 into your hand and discard the rest.
$6 ACTION
Adventurer has a really hard time being useful. It's great if you can trash most or all of your Coppers, but if you can do that, straight card draw is probably better than Adventurer's sifting. Because it sifts, it's theoretically good in slogs, but then you'll usually just be hitting Coppers. Letting it sift for more Treasures will enable it to actually find Treasures around Coppers.
Throne Room
You may choose an Action card in your hand and play it twice.
Otherwise, +$1.
$4 ACTION
Throne Room has always had issues beyond accountability. The risk associated with drawing Throne Rooms dead is usually too great to justify playing a single action twice. By providing a coin, it will always be at least a terminal Copper if nothing else.

Really, the game I prefer is the one where every Action is worth purchasing more than once every hundred games.
Lighthouse
$3 Action - Duration
Now and at the start of your next turn:
+1 Buy
+$1
___
While this is in play, when another player plays an attack card, it doesn't affect you.

The problem I have with Lighthouse is that it isn't terminal. You can piledrive them if you want and they'll never collide. The thing that I like about Moat and Watchtower is that they increase player interaction, but I feel like Lighthouse actually decreases player interaction, because you can't interact with someone who always has a Lighthouse in play. Also, Lighthouse isn't very good in games without attack cards. Therefore, I replaced the +1 Action with something that sometimes makes you want to buy Lighthouse even when there are no attacks: +1 Buy. This version is almost better than Woodcutter, so I felt like I had to increase the price.
I see the reasoning, but I would say that Lighthouse is too good because it gives you a coin in your next hand in addition to not worrying about collision. Providing an Action and Coin the first turn and a Buy the second would balance it out more effectively, I think.

Goons
$6 Action
+1 Buy
+$2
You may trash up to two treasure cards from your hand.
___
While this is in play, when you buy a card, +1VP

The attack part of Goons feels slightly out of place and it really hurts when you get your first $6 hand hit by your opponent's Goons. Trashing possibly makes getting an early Goons even more important, but at least it doesn't make your opponents' early Goons buys less likely to happen. Also, it makes buying Coppers for the +VP more attractive (though still often a trap), because it has a built-in way to get rid of them.
I disagree with this method. In any game where getting multiple Goons cards into play is possible, this ability to trash Treasures would make them even more important than they already were since they provide the Treasure thinning that you need. My suggestion to fix them would be to weaken the coin they provide (thusly making it harder to use its extra buys), or make its Attack anti-stack (discouraging stacking them whenever it is possible).
"+$1" or "Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand, and then draws a card"

Familiar - Action, $P

+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player gains a curse.
---------
You may not buy this after another card, and you may not buy another card after buying this one.
I think it would be simpler to drop Familiar down to $2P instead: Possible to miss, but extremely unlikely.

Transmute
Action - $P
(Same effect as before)
---
When you gain this, +1 buy

It significantly lowers the opportunity cost of getting one, and gives a little perk to the treasure trashing option should you choose to take it. Also it's probably the only chance the game has at putting this when gain effect on a card (putting on a card without a potion cost means you can make a run on the pile with enough Highways etc.).
Serious agreement here. It's a brilliant, simple fix to the card.

Marauder
Action/Attack - $4
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile
Each other player gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand

I like the tradeoff between short term and long term.
Sure. No problem here.

Inn
Action - $5
+2 Cards
Discard any number of cards, +1 action for each card you discard this way
---
When you gain this, you may look through your discard pile (including this), reveal any number of Action cards from it, and shuffle them into your deck.

More variety, and more thematic on top (the more "time" you spend at the inn, the more you can do), and the bottom cuts down on unnecessary shuffling.
I've thought of this too (the discarding cards), but I think it makes Inn too good. The sifting it provides is moderately hard to use, but strong when you can. I mostly don't like Inn's on-gain effect because I rarely feel as though I'm using it effectively.

Farming Village
Action - $4
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action or Treasure card. Put all the revealed cards in your hand.

It's simpler, more interesting and slightly more thematic.
This makes Farming Village a bit stronger, but only with Trash for benefit. I wouldn't say this pushes it out of being reasonable at $4.

On a completely unrelated note, I think a good change to Fortress would be to put 20 in the supply, and then have the effect be "When you trash this, gain a Fortress, putting it into your hand."
This would be a perfect fix to all of Fortress's problems.
Logged
Dominion: Avarice 1.1a, my fan expansion with "in-games-using-this" cards and Edicts (updated Oct 18, 2021)

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2983
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2013, 01:01:09 pm »
0

Minion - $5 Action
Choose one:
+$2
or
Discard your hand and draw 4 cards. Each other player with more than 4 cards in his hand discards random cards until he has only 4 cards inhand.

Logged

Jimmmmm

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1762
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jimmmmm
  • Respect: +2019
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2013, 01:12:22 pm »
0

Adventurer
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 3 Treasures.
Put 2 into your hand and discard the rest.
$6 ACTION

I tend to dislike most suggested changes to cards, but this seems really solid. I think Adventurer, as the only $6 Kingdom Card in the Base Game, deserves to be better than it is. I'm actually considering playing with this variant from now on.
Logged

NoMoreFun

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2013
  • Respect: +2131
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2013, 01:22:55 pm »
0

Sea Hag
Action - $4
+$1
Each other player reveals the top card of his deck. If it's an action or treasure, he discards it and gains a Curse, putting it on top of his deck.

Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3413
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2013, 02:13:42 pm »
0

Adventurer
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 3 Treasures.
Put 2 into your hand and discard the rest.
$6 ACTION

I tend to dislike most suggested changes to cards, but this seems really solid. I think Adventurer, as the only $6 Kingdom Card in the Base Game, deserves to be better than it is. I'm actually considering playing with this variant from now on.
Yeah, it seems a lot more useful this way while the change is subtle.
You could already make an edge case for it as well with Coppersmith. :)
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9709
  • Respect: +10765
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2013, 02:32:13 pm »
+1

Farming Village
Action - $4
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action or Treasure card. Put all the revealed cards in your hand.

It's simpler, more interesting and slightly more thematic.
This makes Farming Village a bit stronger, but only with Trash for benefit. I wouldn't say this pushes it out of being reasonable at $4.

Not only trash for benefit... it's stronger if you have any trashing in general; anytime you would reshuffle after playing Farming Village (bad cards miss the shuffle). Also the following cards: Warehouse; Hamlet; Vault; Secret Chamber; Storeroom; Cellar; Masquerade; Tournament; Baron; Ambassador; Madman. Worse for Hermit though!

I'm not so sure about what I said before about $5... it would be quote a weak $5... but it's still way better than current Farming Village in a fair number of situations.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 03:15:29 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2013, 02:55:09 pm »
0

Farming Village
Action - $4
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action or Treasure card. Put all the revealed cards in your hand.

It's simpler, more interesting and slightly more thematic.
This makes Farming Village a bit stronger, but only with Trash for benefit. I wouldn't say this pushes it out of being reasonable at $4.

Not only trash for benefit... it's stronger if you have any trashing in general; anytime you would reshuffle after playing Farming Village (bad cards miss the shuffle). Also the following cards: Warehouse; Hamlet; Vault; Secret Chamber; Storeroom; Cellar; Masquerade; Tournament; Baron; Ambassador; Madman. Worse for Hermit though!

I'm not so sure about what I said before about $5... it would be quote a weak $5... but it's still way better than current Farming Village in a fair number of situations.

Why is it worse for Hermit?  Hermit can trash from hand.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9709
  • Respect: +10765
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2013, 03:15:12 pm »
0

Farming Village
Action - $4
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action or Treasure card. Put all the revealed cards in your hand.

It's simpler, more interesting and slightly more thematic.
This makes Farming Village a bit stronger, but only with Trash for benefit. I wouldn't say this pushes it out of being reasonable at $4.

Not only trash for benefit... it's stronger if you have any trashing in general; anytime you would reshuffle after playing Farming Village (bad cards miss the shuffle). Also the following cards: Warehouse; Hamlet; Vault; Secret Chamber; Storeroom; Cellar; Masquerade; Tournament; Baron; Ambassador; Madman. Worse for Hermit though!

I'm not so sure about what I said before about $5... it would be quote a weak $5... but it's still way better than current Farming Village in a fair number of situations.

Why is it worse for Hermit?  Hermit can trash from hand.

Oops. Was just thinking about the trash from discard part.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5347
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2013, 09:06:22 am »
+1

Scout should cost 2$ or be something like
"+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal the top 2/3 cards from your deck. [...]"

Rebuild should lose that Action. It's strong enough without it, i think. But maybe that's just me hating the card...

Expand and Forge seem too expensive to me. I'd consider them for 6$, but without Quarry, they usually are not bought by anyone when we play.
Logged

Drab Emordnilap

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1832
  • Shuffle iT Username: Drab Emordnilap
  • Luther Bell Hendricks V
  • Respect: +1887
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2013, 09:47:18 am »
0

Wow. Throne Room is already really good; it doesn't need to be better.
Logged

Nic

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
  • Respect: +85
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2013, 05:31:08 pm »
+2

I was actually thinking about this yesterday; I like the idea of making it grab curses, but it feels like it has a niche as half of a combo; just that it's not worth the price otherwise. I was considering a house rule the next time they came up, which could be put on the card:

Scout                                             ACTION - $0*

+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed
Victory cards into your hand and the rest back in any order.
---------------------------------------
This card costs $2 more for each dual-type victory card in
the Kingdom, but not more than $4.


Would free scouts be OP if you were just using them to clean up your next hand and peek at your next cards? If so, $2/3/4 would work just as good as $0/2/4.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 05:35:40 pm by Nic »
Logged

Nic

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
  • Respect: +85
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2013, 09:46:06 pm »
0

I haven't played with Black Market, but I'm curious if the wonky rules are necessary for something. I'm sure this topic has been done to death, but I couldn't find any threads on it.

Black Market             ACTION - $3
+$2
+1 Buy
Reveal the top 3 cards of the Black Market deck.
You may buy at most one of them during your
Buy Phase
. At the start of Clean-up, put the unbought
cards on the bottom of the Black Market deck in any order.

(Before the game, make a Black Market deck out of
one copy of each Kingdom card not in the supply.)


It doesn't combo with Tactician anymore, and you have an actual +Buy rather than a virtual buy, but is it substantially different otherwise?
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2479
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2013, 09:49:11 pm »
+3

you can use that to buy two non-black market cards. (e.i., in the supply). This makes it strictly better than woodcutter.
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2013, 01:40:32 am »
+1

you can use that to buy two non-black market cards. (e.i., in the supply). This makes it strictly better than woodcutter.

But it is written that you can only buy "at most one of them".

I think it would get confusing if multiple BMs were played.  Let's say that you play TR-BM.  You reveal three cards, then you reveal another three cards.  What happens in the Buy phase?  Are you still restricted to buying just 1/6?  If you can buy 2/6, are you restricted to only buying one from each set of 3?  When you return cards to the bottom, do you have to do it in the correct order (that is, one set and then the next)?

It would make tracking difficult, and IRL it could end up requiring too much table space depending on how many BMs you manage to play in a single turn.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3413
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2013, 04:24:15 am »
+1

Black Market is a promo anyway even though it's considered canon. We get to thank Isotropic for that. :)
So in my view it doesn't need "fixing" as you can decide how to set up the BM deck to your own liking.

What does need fixing is, in my view, Scrying Pool.
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck and either discard it or put it back.
Then reveal cards from the top of your deck until revealing one that isn't an Action.
Put all of your revealed cards into your hand.

So I just removed the "opponent-Spy" part as I think it's mighty strong without it and it makes it even more cumbersome to play. Usually you can play a couple of them in a row and it would be better if you're not hindering opponents more than necessary.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2479
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2013, 06:56:22 am »
0

I believe the "at most one" is reffering to cards in the black market deck. it would need to be at most one for both, which is easily remedied.
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2013, 03:07:36 pm »
0

I believe the "at most one" is reffering to cards in the black market deck. it would need to be at most one for both, which is easily remedied.

Oops, I misread your statement.  I thought you were saying you could buy multiple BM cards, not non-BM cards!  Nic's post already covered that though, since he mentioned that you would have a real +Buy instead of a virtual one.
Logged

KingZog3

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3163
  • Respect: +1380
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2013, 06:40:17 pm »
0

The only fix I've seen here that's really needed are the Adventurer and Goons ones. Throne Room needs no fixing, especially not +$. Black Market could use fixing maybe, but I see it more as a card for a fun/wacky game, not a competitive game.

What does need fixing is, in my view, Scrying Pool.
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of your deck and either discard it or put it back.
Then reveal cards from the top of your deck until revealing one that isn't an Action.
Put all of your revealed cards into your hand.
I agree with this, but it's not a fix, more of a convenience. The Spy effect is weak, a only slows the game down. No one buys it for the attack, and would essentially never change a game with it taken out without weakening the card.
Logged

Nic

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
  • Respect: +85
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2013, 06:16:34 pm »
0

you can use that to buy two non-black market cards. (e.i., in the supply). This makes it strictly better than woodcutter.


I think it would get confusing if multiple BMs were played.  Let's say that you play TR-BM.  You reveal three cards, then you reveal another three cards.  What happens in the Buy phase?  Are you still restricted to buying just 1/6?  If you can buy 2/6, are you restricted to only buying one from each set of 3?  When you return cards to the bottom, do you have to do it in the correct order (that is, one set and then the next)?

It would make tracking difficult, and IRL it could end up requiring too much table space depending on how many BMs you manage to play in a single turn.

Okay, both of those are good points. Given the wording, I had figured it would work just like you said; lay down the cards in two rows of three, buy at most one card from each row, and return the leftovers in any order. But I see your point that it's not substantially simpler than just resolving the buy during your action phase.

I'm still curious as to whether a $0 Scout is balanced, though.
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2013, 06:49:05 pm »
+2

I'm still curious as to whether a $0 Scout is balanced, though.

I think having $0 cost piles makes three piling on megaturns too easy, especially with KC and a power +Buy card like Goons or Wharf or Bridge. I would rather just not use the card.
Logged

gman314

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 589
  • Respect: +281
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2013, 07:01:07 pm »
0

I'm still curious as to whether a $0 Scout is balanced, though.

I think having $0 cost piles makes three piling on megaturns too easy, especially with KC and a power +Buy card like Goons or Wharf or Bridge. I would rather just not use the card.

Well, with Bridge as your power + Buy, you were probably going to end up with some $0 piles anyways. :D
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2013, 08:09:50 pm »
0

Well, with Bridge as your power + Buy, you were probably going to end up with some $0 piles anyways. :D

Yes, that's true. Let's go with Wharf and Goons then.
Logged

Schlippy

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +60
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2013, 11:36:21 am »
0

I think Transmute for $4 would be an awesome card.
How about leaving it at the $0/P cost and adding the line "In games using this, when you gain a Potion, you may gain a Transmute."?
Logged
I do upload some Dominion videos on youtube now. :)

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5347
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2013, 06:10:14 pm »
0

I'm still curious as to whether a $0 Scout is balanced, though.

I think having $0 cost piles makes three piling on megaturns too easy, especially with KC and a power +Buy card like Goons or Wharf or Bridge. I would rather just not use the card.

How about:
+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed
Victory cards into your hand and the rest back in any order.
---------------------------------------
Setup: If possible, add an additional kingdom card with the Victory type to the supply.

Edit 2: It's still not good... But at least it gets a chance to be a bit better.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 08:10:32 pm by Asper »
Logged

Drab Emordnilap

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1832
  • Shuffle iT Username: Drab Emordnilap
  • Luther Bell Hendricks V
  • Respect: +1887
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2013, 06:52:09 pm »
+1

I know other people have suggested it already, but I think my favorite fix to Scout is to make it a Victory card worth 1VP.
Logged

NoMoreFun

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2013
  • Respect: +2131
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2013, 09:36:18 am »
+1

I know other people have suggested it already, but I think my favorite fix to Scout is to make it a Victory card worth 1VP.

Well, it's strictly worse than Estate, but at least it's an improvement.
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2013, 12:50:18 pm »
0

I know other people have suggested it already, but I think my favorite fix to Scout is to make it a Victory card worth 1VP.

Well, it's strictly worse than Estate, but at least it's an improvement.

Is that a joke?  It would very much not be strictly worse...
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9709
  • Respect: +10765
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2013, 12:56:10 pm »
+1

I know other people have suggested it already, but I think my favorite fix to Scout is to make it a Victory card worth 1VP.

Well, it's strictly worse than Estate, but at least it's an improvement.

Is that a joke?  It would very much not be strictly worse...

Someone on F.DS is talking about Scout... and you have to ask if it's a joke?  ;)
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2013, 01:02:12 pm »
0

I know other people have suggested it already, but I think my favorite fix to Scout is to make it a Victory card worth 1VP.

Well, it's strictly worse than Estate, but at least it's an improvement.

Is that a joke?  It would very much not be strictly worse...

Someone on F.DS is talking about Scout... and you have to ask if it's a joke?  ;)

But it's talking about modified Scout!  Modified Scout is not Scout.  ::)

(Also, "strictly inferior/superior" are abused terms on f.ds.)
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5347
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2013, 01:10:11 pm »
0

I know other people have suggested it already, but I think my favorite fix to Scout is to make it a Victory card worth 1VP.

Well, it's strictly worse than Estate, but at least it's an improvement.

Is that a joke?  It would very much not be strictly worse...

Someone on F.DS is talking about Scout... and you have to ask if it's a joke?  ;)

But it's talking about modified Scout!  Modified Scout is not Scout.  ::)

(Also, "strictly inferior/superior" are abused terms on f.ds.)

Strictly or not, it's worse than Great Hall on many occasions.
Logged

NoMoreFun

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2013
  • Respect: +2131
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2013, 01:11:09 pm »
+3

I know other people have suggested it already, but I think my favorite fix to Scout is to make it a Victory card worth 1VP.

Well, it's strictly worse than Estate, but at least it's an improvement.

Is that a joke?  It would very much not be strictly worse...

He didn't say "Action/Victory"
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2013, 01:13:53 pm »
+1

I know other people have suggested it already, but I think my favorite fix to Scout is to make it a Victory card worth 1VP.

Well, it's strictly worse than Estate, but at least it's an improvement.

Is that a joke?  It would very much not be strictly worse...

He didn't say "Action/Victory"

Oh snap.
Logged

Julle

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 118
  • Respect: +572
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2013, 02:52:45 am »
+1

Here's my "fix" for Scout:

Scout

Action 4$
+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand.
If none of the revealed cards were victory cards, put one of them into your hand.
Put the rest back in any order

So it's always at least a cantrip.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9709
  • Respect: +10765
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2013, 09:32:14 am »
0

Here's my "fix" for Scout:

Scout

Action 4$
+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand.
If none of the revealed cards were victory cards, put one of them into your hand.
Put the rest back in any order

So it's always at least a cantrip.

That's a VERY powerful card, actually....
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Mr Anderson

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 233
  • Respect: +191
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2013, 10:46:10 am »
+1

In my opinion, Chancellor would be more powerful if he/she/it would be non-terminal, so:

Chancellor: 3$
+1 Action
+1 Buy


You may immediately put your drawpile into your discard pile.

Maybe this one would be better, though:
Chancellor: 4$
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy

You may...

So you do not waste a card in your hand to get to 5$, and Chancellor does not conflict with the other terminals you want to play more often because Chancellor is no longer a terminal.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11817
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12870
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2013, 02:52:39 pm »
0

Minion
$4 Action - Attack
+1 Action
+$1
Each player discards his hand and draws 4 cards.

I hate getting stuck with a 4-card hand that I don't like against Minion players while they're still playing their Minions. This should fix the "problem": at least now I can hope for a better 4-card hand, though it's now significantly weaker (it resembles Peddler) so I made it a $4. Another possible solution:

Minion
$4 Action - Attack
+1 Action
Choose one: +$2; or each player with 5 or more cards in his hand discards it and draws 4 cards and each other player may do the same.


Both cards are also interesting because they're Attacks even though they do the Attack part thing to all players.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2013, 02:55:27 pm »
0

Minion
$4 Action - Attack
+1 Action
+$1
Each player discards his hand and draws 4 cards.

I hate getting stuck with a 4-card hand that I don't like against Minion players while they're still playing their Minions. This should fix the "problem": at least now I can hope for a better 4-card hand, though it's now significantly weaker (it resembles Peddler) so I made it a $4. Another possible solution:

Minion
$4 Action - Attack
+1 Action
Choose one: +$2; or each player with 5 or more cards in his hand discards it and draws 4 cards and each other player may do the same.


Both cards are also interesting because they're Attacks even though they do the Attack part thing to all players.

That first one doesn't work.  Sometimes you get a crappy 4 card hand and hope for a second Minion to give you a better one... but sometimes you will have a perfectly good 4 card hand and a second Minion wipes it out.  Not to mention, a chain of Minions would slow the game down immensely because everyone will be reshuffling over and over again.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11817
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12870
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2013, 03:03:04 pm »
0

That first one doesn't work.  Sometimes you get a crappy 4 card hand and hope for a second Minion to give you a better one... but sometimes you will have a perfectly good 4 card hand and a second Minion wipes it out.  Not to mention, a chain of Minions would slow the game down immensely because everyone will be reshuffling over and over again.
It works just fine, wiping out good cards too is intentional. Slowing the game down is a problem IRL though, but not online.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2013, 03:06:44 pm »
0

In my opinion, Chancellor would be more powerful if he/she/it would be non-terminal, so:

Chancellor: 3$
+1 Action
+1 Buy


You may immediately put your drawpile into your discard pile.

Maybe this one would be better, though:
Chancellor: 4$
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy

You may...

So you do not waste a card in your hand to get to 5$, and Chancellor does not conflict with the other terminals you want to play more often because Chancellor is no longer a terminal.
Making Chancellor non-terminal has a logistics problem. It makes you shuffle A LOT more.
Logged

KingZog3

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3163
  • Respect: +1380
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2013, 03:28:34 pm »
0

In my opinion, Chancellor would be more powerful if he/she/it would be non-terminal, so:

Chancellor: 3$
+1 Action
+1 Buy


You may immediately put your drawpile into your discard pile.

Maybe this one would be better, though:
Chancellor: 4$
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy

You may...

So you do not waste a card in your hand to get to 5$, and Chancellor does not conflict with the other terminals you want to play more often because Chancellor is no longer a terminal.
Making Chancellor non-terminal has a logistics problem. It makes you shuffle A LOT more.
I don't think that should be a reason to not change a card. I don't really think it needs changing. Sure it's weak, but there are still times I buy it.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2013, 07:17:04 pm »
+2

Making Chancellor non-terminal has a logistics problem. It makes you shuffle A LOT more.
I don't think that should be a reason to not change a card.

That's because you've never played an IRL game against someone who plays a string of cantrip-Chancellors and shuffles his deck 7 times in a row. Dominion is primarily a physical card game and these things matter.

I don't really think it needs changing. Sure it's weak, but there are still times I buy it.

Chancellor and Woodcutter are two very similar Base Set cards that are renowned for being underpowered. I wonder if they could be combined into one good card.

Chancellor
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Buy. +$2. You may immediately put your deck into your discard pile.

I'm guessing that's still fairly priced at $3, though I could be way off base.
Logged

Tables

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2817
  • Build more Bridges in the King's Court!
  • Respect: +3349
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2013, 08:20:30 pm »
0

Making Chancellor non-terminal has a logistics problem. It makes you shuffle A LOT more.
I don't think that should be a reason to not change a card.

That's because you've never played an IRL game against someone who plays a string of cantrip-Chancellors and shuffles his deck 7 times in a row. Dominion is primarily a physical card game and these things matter.

I don't really think it needs changing. Sure it's weak, but there are still times I buy it.

Chancellor and Woodcutter are two very similar Base Set cards that are renowned for being underpowered. I wonder if they could be combined into one good card.

Chancellor
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Buy. +$2. You may immediately put your deck into your discard pile.

I'm guessing that's still fairly priced at $3, though I could be way off base.

I expect it is. The two parts don't synergise in an obvious way (although I could see it being possible), and honestly what you pay for is a terminal silver + small benefit, this just has two small benefits.
Logged
...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

A Drowned Kernel

  • 2015 World Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1067
  • They/Them
  • Respect: +1980
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2013, 08:35:34 pm »
0

It's a very odd idea, but I think that it would be interesting if Chancellor worked as an attack.

Chancellor
Action/Attack - $3

+$2

Each play either puts his deck into his discard pile or doesn't, your choice.


Might lead to a lot of AP but could be fun.
Logged
The perfect engine
But it will never go off
Three piles are empty

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2479
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2013, 08:47:18 pm »
0

chancellor with +buy makes it combo with counting house better, which is cool.
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2013, 09:43:12 pm »
0

chancellor with +buy makes it combo with counting house better, which is cool.

Not really if its terminal, because you cannot use CH and the +Buy on the same turn anyway. Maybe its easier to get the extra Copper and something else as well, but no big difference, at least for Province games.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2013, 12:26:00 am »
0

The two parts don't synergise in an obvious way (although I could see it being possible), and honestly what you pay for is a terminal silver + small benefit, this just has two small benefits.

I think the two parts synergize in that you mostly want to use the deck flipping while you're building your deck up, and the extra buy allows you to split an early $8 or $9 into a couple of good cards that you immediately get to shuffle into your deck.

But still, it may be perfectly acceptable at $3.
Logged

Mr Anderson

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 233
  • Respect: +191
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2013, 02:48:17 am »
0

Yes, one of the reasons why I decided to make Chancellor non-terminal was to strengthen Counting House, therefore it also got +1 Buy. But you often do not buy Chancellor because it is terminal and likely collides with your Witches, for example, so why not make it non-terminal. I understand your fear that you need to shuffle your deck a lot, but in many cases you can do that in your opponent's turns and it does not take five minutes to shuffle your deck. Additionally, with a chapel trimmed deck, you shuffle your deck every turn as well, and nobody complained.

I agree that even a +Buy on the terminal Chancellor would increase its power significantly.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2013, 10:47:41 am »
+1

Yes, one of the reasons why I decided to make Chancellor non-terminal was to strengthen Counting House, therefore it also got +1 Buy. But you often do not buy Chancellor because it is terminal and likely collides with your Witches, for example, so why not make it non-terminal. I understand your fear that you need to shuffle your deck a lot, but in many cases you can do that in your opponent's turns and it does not take five minutes to shuffle your deck. Additionally, with a chapel trimmed deck, you shuffle your deck every turn as well, and nobody complained.

I don't think you understand. I'm not talking about shuffling between turns. Non-terminal Chancellor would dramatically increase the amount of mid-turn shuffling.

For example, you suggested a cantrip Chancellor for $4. I play a CantripChancellor, draw a card, get +1 Action and +1 Buy, and discard my deck. Then I play another one. I have to immediately reshuffle in order to draw a card, after which I get another Buy and Action and discard my deck. Then I play another one and have to reshuffle again. See what I'm getting at?

A version without +1 Card wouldn't be as bad in this respect, but it would still cause an immediate reshuffle whenever you drew cards afterward. Not only does that slow things down, but it completely ruins the benefit of deck-flipping. Let's use Witch as an example, since you brought it up. I play a non-terminal Chancellor and discard my deck. Then I play a Witch. I immediately reshuffle because I have to draw 2 cards for the Witch. Now my discard is empty and my deck is full, which means that whatever card(s) I buy this turn (and my Witch) are going to take a very long time to be reshuffled into my deck. That's the exact opposite of what Chancellor's ability is for! The whole point of Chancellor is to get the card(s) you bought this turn (and to a lesser extent, recent turns) into your deck immediately!

Trusty Steed is the only current example of a card that can be non-terminal and flip your deck. But there's only ever one Trusty Steed in a game, and when was the last time you chose [+2 Actions/Gain 4 Silvers]? Usually if I'm gaining the Silvers, I choose +$2 or +2 cards to go along with it, but maybe that's just me.

EDIT: On a related note, I don't recommend deck-flipping abilities if your opponents are playing Witches. In general you want to avoid getting those Curses into your draw pile faster.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 11:05:04 am by LastFootnote »
Logged

Mr Anderson

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 233
  • Respect: +191
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #63 on: May 23, 2013, 11:21:52 am »
0

Ah, I did not think about that, you are right.
The only time that card would be alright are Counting House slogs, I guess.
Thanks for the clarification.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 11:24:22 am by Mr Anderson »
Logged

Mr Anderson

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 233
  • Respect: +191
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2013, 12:13:18 pm »
0

Bearing in mind your post, a wording for a fixed non-terminal chancellor could be:

Chancellor: 4$
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy

______________________
When you discard this card from play, you may put your draw pile into your discard pile.

That would solve the problem of mid-turn shuffles, would enable that you can play your good terminals more often, but it would no longer combo with Counting House :(

Or, more interesting:

Chancellor: 3$ (4$)
+2 Actions
(+1 Buy)

______________________
When you discard this card from play, you may put your draw pile into your discard pile.

That version could be useless in engines that draw your hole deck, though, and it does not add anything to your buying power, so you do not want to open with it.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 12:16:13 pm by Mr Anderson »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11817
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12870
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2013, 02:13:49 pm »
+2

That would solve the problem of mid-turn shuffles, would enable that you can play your good terminals more often, but it would no longer combo with Counting House :(
It would, with 5x Scheme.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

Mr Anderson

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 233
  • Respect: +191
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2013, 02:21:34 pm »
0

That would solve the problem of mid-turn shuffles, would enable that you can play your good terminals more often, but it would no longer combo with Counting House :(
It would, with 5x Scheme.

Sure. Thank you.
Logged

NoMoreFun

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2013
  • Respect: +2131
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2013, 07:24:28 pm »
0

Counting House:
Action - $6
+1 Buy
Look through your discard pile, reveal any number of Coppers from it, then put them into your hand.
---
When you gain this, put it anywhere in your deck.

EDIT: Made it $6 so you can't open with it.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 07:26:10 pm by NoMoreFun »
Logged

dominator 123

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 164
  • Shuffle iT Username: dominator 123
  • Notice the space
  • Respect: +369
    • View Profile
Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2013, 11:28:59 pm »
+1

What does need fixing is, in my view, Scrying Pool.
+1 Action
Reveal Look at the top card of your deck and either discard it or put it back.
Then reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal one that is not an Action.
Put all of your revealed cards into your hand
Fixed that for you.

Spy and oracle get you to reveal the top card of your own deck so as not to make it wordy. But if it is only a self-spy, like Duchess, then you don't need to reveal, just look at.

BTW, I think Adventurer and Thief should be conbined.

Adventurous Thief $5
Action-Attack

Each other player reveals cards from his deck until he reveals 2 treasure cards. He trashes one of them that you choose and discards the rest. You may gain any or all of the trashed treasures.
Logged
"Strictly Better" compares only effects and not cost, change my mind
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]
 

Page created in 3.771 seconds with 20 queries.