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[Jimmmmm]

You can't "recruit" the Survivor. Imagine it's 4/3/1.

Mafia: I'm Mafia. Survivor, you will help us no-lynch, because if you don't, we WILL kill you tonight, and you lose. If you do, you're guaranteed to win with us.

Now the Survivor could try to call his bluff and risk it, but why? He has absolutely no reason to put his neck out for Town here and throw away a 100% win. So 4/3/1 is a loss for Town.

So 6/3/1 is lylo if Town tries to lynch Mafia, and has a 3/9 chance of doing so. If instead, they lynch the Survivor, then the next day they'll be at lylo, but with a 3/8 chance of lynching Mafia. Better odds, and one less Townie to mislynch. Sounds like optimal Town play to me.

Optimal town play is killing mafia.  There are very few edge cases where you would prefer to kill someone other than mafia.  And this isn't an SK we're talking about, who keeps killing.  It's basically a Tree Stump.

That's not what optimal means. That's like saying about a game of Dominion, "The optimal strategy is to get the most points." Optimal Town play is to give yourselves the best possible chance to lynch Mafia. Obviously as Town you'd rather kill Mafia than the Survivor. But in the above situations you'd MUCH rather kill the Survivor than a Townie, because if you kill a Townie you lose. And killing the Survivor actually helps your chances at killing Mafia.

[ashersky]

You can't "recruit" the Survivor. Imagine it's 4/3/1.

Mafia: I'm Mafia. Survivor, you will help us no-lynch, because if you don't, we WILL kill you tonight, and you lose. If you do, you're guaranteed to win with us.

Now the Survivor could try to call his bluff and risk it, but why? He has absolutely no reason to put his neck out for Town here and throw away a 100% win. So 4/3/1 is a loss for Town.

So 6/3/1 is lylo if Town tries to lynch Mafia, and has a 3/9 chance of doing so. If instead, they lynch the Survivor, then the next day they'll be at lylo, but with a 3/8 chance of lynching Mafia. Better odds, and one less Townie to mislynch. Sounds like optimal Town play to me.

Optimal town play is killing mafia.  There are very few edge cases where you would prefer to kill someone other than mafia.  And this isn't an SK we're talking about, who keeps killing.  It's basically a Tree Stump.

That's not what optimal means. That's like saying about a game of Dominion, "The optimal strategy is to get the most points." Optimal Town play is to give yourselves the best possible chance to lynch Mafia. Obviously as Town you'd rather kill Mafia than the Survivor. But in the above situations you'd MUCH rather kill the Survivor than a Townie, because if you kill a Townie you lose. And killing the Survivor actually helps your chances at killing Mafia.

I think your numbers are wrong, or we're not thinking about this the same way.

6/3/1 (town/mafia/survivor).  First, I'd note that that's 3 deaths, so it's N2.  Anyway, if it is day, any one town member has a 3/8 chance of hitting mafia (NOT 3/9, as you posit) with their vote (6+3-1=8).  Assume mislynch + NK.  Now we have 4/3/1 and scum wins.  Okay.  But to get to 6/3/1, that's 2 mislynches, an NK, and a blocked NK.  Day 3 at the earliest.  In a game with 13, 3 mislynches to lose sounds about right for an expert level game.  The bigger issue is that at 6/3/1, all three mafia claim, add survivor, and win anyway.

But assume one scum lynch in 2 days.  Now we're at 6/2/1 on D3.  Any one town member has a 2/5 chance  at lynching scum, and scum + survivor can't lynch anyone.  No reason to kill the survivor now, since that just drops things to 5/2 on D4 for lylo.  Mislynch and it's 4/2/1--mafia full claim and win.

I mean, I see your argument that survivor has it easier to just win with scum, so town should just kill them anyway.

But if that's the way to play it, you just auto-lynch the survivor on D1.  He has no house, so you can flush him out as a group.  Knowing the others' houses does nothing for you, so everyone house claims, the 13th player is lynched.  That's no fun for the survivor.

If I rolled survivor, I'd claim right away and find a way to convince both mafia and town to just forget about me.

[eHalcyon]

That's wrong ash. The point is that it is best to lynch survivor if it gets to the point where leaving him around could result in an early mylo or lylo. You certainly leave the survivor at the start of the game and you can keep him around if you hit scum once or twice, because if town is likely to win then survivor would only help that. But if scum pull ahead, it is better to just lynch the survivor than risk mislynching. That's what everyone is pointing out. At or just before the point where survivor would join scum, town needs to lynch survivor because he might s well be scum anyway and it makes it easier to lynch correctly after that.

[EFHW]

The survivor will have a house.

[EFHW]

The survivor will have a house.

I've nixed the survivor as neighborizer idea.

[EFHW]

How about this - the survivor is the Head of School, and can read all the QT's and post in each once a night.  There are 3 people in each house to start, making 13 players total.  They have the town powers and need a majority consensus to use them.  The survivor does not have a vig kill - all his/her power is in the access to the qt's.

[eHalcyon]

How about this - the survivor is the Head of School, and can read all the QT's and post in each once a night.  There are 3 people in each house to start, making 13 players total.  They have the town powers and need a majority consensus to use them.  The survivor does not have a vig kill - all his/her power is in the access to the qt's.

Is his presence known in each QT?  If so, that can break the game for the Survivor with a mass QT claim.

Another question -- each house can neighbourize?  What happens if they neighbourize each other?  I mean, mechanically someone simply has access to multiple neighborhood QTs, but thematically it doesn't work well.

[ashersky]

How about this - the survivor is the Head of School, and can read all the QT's and post in each once a night.  There are 3 people in each house to start, making 13 players total.  They have the town powers and need a majority consensus to use them.  The survivor does not have a vig kill - all his/her power is in the access to the qt's.

Is his presence known in each QT?  If so, that can break the game for the Survivor with a mass QT claim.

Another question -- each house can neighbourize?  What happens if they neighbourize each other?  I mean, mechanically someone simply has access to multiple neighborhood QTs, but thematically it doesn't work well.

I think neighborizing is out completely now.  Random rolls into each house.

[EFHW]

I think neighborizing is out completely now.  Random rolls into each house.

Right, AND the survivor is not in the QT under his/her real name.  Kind of like mcmc pretending to be Eevee.  They'd be "Professor MacGonagall".  Not sure if I spelled that right.

[mail-mi]

I think neighborizing is out completely now.  Random rolls into each house.

Right, AND the survivor is not in the QT under his/her real name.  Kind of like mcmc pretending to be Eevee.  They'd be "Professor MacGonagall".  Not sure if I spelled that right.

She's the head of Gryffindor. They'd be "Professor Dumbledore"

[eHalcyon]

RELEVANT

[EFHW]

I think neighborizing is out completely now.  Random rolls into each house.

Right, AND the survivor is not in the QT under his/her real name.  Kind of like mcmc pretending to be Eevee.  They'd be "Professor MacGonagall".  Not sure if I spelled that right.

She's the head of Gryffindor. They'd be "Professor Dumbledore"

Sadly, Dumbledore has died.

[EFHW]

RELEVANT

!

[liopoil]

I'd suggest, to make town stronger (right now I think scum is too good), all four heads of houses Town PRs. since they are conf. town PRs, I think they should be able to post in their QT as their flavor name, so as not to give themself away if there is scum in the QT.


Also, I'd suggest making the survivor a jailkeeper, to give teams more incentive to get on their good side. I'd scratch the kill too.


Is there a reason not to reveal flavor?

[Archetype]

I like the idea of head of houses talking under pseudonyms. You should also make them be able to talk as much as they want instead of just once.

Kind of turns every QT into a less bastard "Eevee QT" 

[liopoil]

agree with arch. I'd also make the scum power a plain 2-shot rolecop, which learns house and role.

[Archetype]

I'd also make the scum power a plain 2-shot rolecop, which learns house and role.

This. Scum needs some sort of power.

I really think you need to change the Gryffindor power though. I kind of want the Slytherin and Hufflepuff powers changed, but this is your game so you shouldn't do everything I say. But definitely change the Gryffindor power, it's essentially a Lightning Rod, which ruins the fun for the majority of the other roles while it's alive.

[EFHW]

I'd also make the scum power a plain 2-shot rolecop, which learns house and role.

This. Scum needs some sort of power.

I really think you need to change the Gryffindor power though. I kind of want the Slytherin and Hufflepuff powers changed, but this is your game so you shouldn't do everything I say. But definitely change the Gryffindor power, it's essentially a Lightning Rod, which ruins the fun for the majority of the other roles while it's alive.

It is different from a lightening rod because they have to specify one player to protect, they don't get to protect everyone like lr does.

[EFHW]

A lot of things have changed, so read through it again before commenting please!

[ashersky]

You've settled on "regular" for this game's category, correct?

[yuma]

and I maintain that any game that has anything to do with "hate" or "double voting" shouldn't be listed as a normal game. It is a complete deviation from the most basic, fundamental, rules of the game in way that I believe shouldn't be considered "normal."

[ashersky]

and I maintain that any game that has anything to do with "hate" or "double voting" shouldn't be listed as a normal game. It is a complete deviation from the most basic, fundamental, rules of the game in way that I believe shouldn't be considered "normal."

I don't think there's double-voting here.

The Hated and Loved powers are the only things not "ordinary" in any sense.  I think Hated is accepted as a standard modifier at mafiascum, though.  Plus, the set-up is open, so I think that's better than not.

There are too many VTs to be RMM, and there are no real Bastard elements, given it's an open set-up.  I think regular mafia works for this.

[yuma]

those are good points. I think I have a bias against "hated" ever since I was hated in ozle's first game and was lynched day1....

But I do think it is a role that needs to be treated very carefully, and I do think it probably has been here, as it is susceptible to manipulation.

[ashersky]

those are good points. I think I have a bias against "hated" ever since I was hated in ozle's first game and was lynched day1....

But I do think it is a role that needs to be treated very carefully, and I do think it probably has been here, as it is susceptible to manipulation.

What needs clarified somewhere is whether the person who is Hated knows they are Hated.  (Same for Loved.)

If they know they are Hated, they can claim right away, and then there is wifom on whether they are Slytherin or not.  A Hated fakeclaim is risky, but technically possible, too.  But being able to claim it takes away the swinginess.

If the Hated/Loved modifiers are silent/passive, then you run into the annoyance factor.  You can run everyone up to L-2 every day, but that's a pain, plus waiting around for vote counts, and only if the mod puts L-1 on the vote counts for you....

tldr: clarifying if the players have knowledge of being hated/loved.

[EFHW]

The loved/hated person will be informed of their new status and that it lasts one day.