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[EFHW]

I think the Survivor (if you still want to include it) should become a Compulsive X. That way the factions would have to persuade the Survivor to help them, but I would feel bad for the Survivor since they misss out on all the fun QT stuff. Maybe instead a 1-shot House of their choice joining?.

Or Houses could try to recruit on N0.

The problem with houses recruiting is they may try to recruit the same people.  In the original plan, a different house was created each night, including N0.  We could keep that structure, make the survivor the neighborizer, and have three people in each QT instead of 2.  Each house would have one "mini-game" re: their one-shot power.

If the neighborizer is killed, the role could shift randomly to someone not yet in a house.  They may or may not have access to the already existing QTs

[EFHW]

I'd want to roll Survivor.  Claim D1, promise never to vote or use your shot, and just wait for the game to end to win with whomever is there.  Killing the survivor helps no one, so there's no incentive to lynch.

Wouldn't killing the Survivor help scum?  They need to reduce the non-Death Eater population.

[mcmcsalot]

I'd want to roll Survivor.  Claim D1, promise never to vote or use your shot, and just wait for the game to end to win with whomever is there.  Killing the survivor helps no one, so there's no incentive to lynch.

Wouldn't killing the Survivor help scum?  They need to reduce the non-Death Eater population.

no because the survivor can win with scum, so once the death-eaters plus survivor have the majority they win, say a 2 scum, 1 survivor, 3 town scenario. If scum is caught they can say if survivor helps lynch scum the scum will kill the survivor, if they no lynch scum wins with survivor. This means 2 scum, 1 survivor, 5 town is mylo.

Moreover with 14 players, scum wins at 3 scum, 1 survivor, 4 town. So 3 mislynches are allowed.
Without survivor, 14 players, scum wins at 3 scum 3 town. So 4 mislynches are allowed.

[EFHW]

I'd want to roll Survivor.  Claim D1, promise never to vote or use your shot, and just wait for the game to end to win with whomever is there.  Killing the survivor helps no one, so there's no incentive to lynch.

Wouldn't killing the Survivor help scum?  They need to reduce the non-Death Eater population.

no because the survivor can win with scum, so once the death-eaters plus survivor have the majority they win, say a 2 scum, 1 survivor, 3 town scenario. If scum is caught they can say if survivor helps lynch scum the scum will kill the survivor, if they no lynch scum wins with survivor. This means 2 scum, 1 survivor, 5 town is mylo.

Moreover with 14 players, scum wins at 3 scum, 1 survivor, 4 town. So 3 mislynches are allowed.
Without survivor, 14 players, scum wins at 3 scum 3 town. So 4 mislynches are allowed.

So survivor gets counted with the scum, as scum, for the wincon? 

I wouldn't have thought that. I could see them deciding to join in to help scum win, but I would have thought that with 6 town, there would need to be 3 actual scum to win.  Doesn't the inevitable scum win you are describing depend on at least one scum and the survivor having been identified?  So the scum win should not be automatic just based on numbers. 

[Jimmmmm]

I'd want to roll Survivor.  Claim D1, promise never to vote or use your shot, and just wait for the game to end to win with whomever is there.  Killing the survivor helps no one, so there's no incentive to lynch.

Wouldn't killing the Survivor help scum?  They need to reduce the non-Death Eater population.

no because the survivor can win with scum, so once the death-eaters plus survivor have the majority they win, say a 2 scum, 1 survivor, 3 town scenario. If scum is caught they can say if survivor helps lynch scum the scum will kill the survivor, if they no lynch scum wins with survivor. This means 2 scum, 1 survivor, 5 town is mylo.

Moreover with 14 players, scum wins at 3 scum, 1 survivor, 4 town. So 3 mislynches are allowed.
Without survivor, 14 players, scum wins at 3 scum 3 town. So 4 mislynches are allowed.

So survivor gets counted with the scum, as scum, for the wincon? 

I wouldn't have thought that. I could see them deciding to join in to help scum win, but I would have thought that with 6 town, there would need to be 3 actual scum to win.  Doesn't the inevitable scum win you are describing depend on at least one scum and the survivor having been identified?  So the scum win should not be automatic just based on numbers.

I think the point is that the Survivor can claim and work together with scum to at least get a no-lynch.

[EFHW]

So then wouldn't town want to lynch the survivor, especially since early on it's very hard to find scum?

[eHalcyon]

You have to think of Survivor as anti-town and account for the possibility that he will side with scum.  If he claims, he should probably be lynched unless he is actually helping the town out.

[EFHW]

If we make the Survivor the neighborizer, then some very complicated strategies could arise.  Maybe the Survivor would want to put scum with town, rather than trying to isolate them.

[Jimmmmm]

So then wouldn't town want to lynch the survivor, especially since early on it's very hard to find scum?

If Town/scum/Survivor is 4/3/1, then scum/Survivor can work together to force a no-lynch. During the night, scum must kill a Townie (since if they kill the Survivor the Town will pick them off one-by-one), making it 3/3/1. Then scum/Survivor can simply lynch a Townie, giving the win to scum/Survivor.

[EFHW]

So then wouldn't town want to lynch the survivor, especially since early on it's very hard to find scum?

If Town/scum/Survivor is 4/3/1, then scum/Survivor can work together to force a no-lynch. During the night, scum must kill a Townie (since if they kill the Survivor the Town will pick them off one-by-one), making it 3/3/1. Then scum/Survivor can simply lynch a Townie, giving the win to scum/Survivor.

The premise was Ashersky's #18, that he would claim D1.

[EFHW]

If the survivor neighborizer is killed and new one appointed, that player's alignment could (would need to?) change to survivor.

[Jimmmmm]

So then wouldn't town want to lynch the survivor, especially since early on it's very hard to find scum?

If Town/scum/Survivor is 4/3/1, then scum/Survivor can work together to force a no-lynch. During the night, scum must kill a Townie (since if they kill the Survivor the Town will pick them off one-by-one), making it 3/3/1. Then scum/Survivor can simply lynch a Townie, giving the win to scum/Survivor.

The premise was Ashersky's #18, that he would claim D1.

Oh ok. Missed that. I guess in that case Town would want to kill the Survivor before you get to this stage.

[Jimmmmm]

Yes. So ash is wrong, it would be bad for the Survivor to claim straight away.

[mcmcsalot]

Yes. So ash is wrong, it would be bad for the Survivor to claim straight away.

Yes town cod lynch survivor if they claimed D1 but you really want to try to lynch scum because if town+survivor has the bigger numbers survivor wants to help lynching scum.

[Jimmmmm]

I think the question is not "Do we lynch the Survivor?" but "When do we lynch the Survivor?" You'd rather lynch scum early on, but if you get to the point where the Survivor can help scum win the next Day, the Survivor has to go. I guess based on that a claimed Survivor would want to help Town win so it doesn't come to that.

[mcmcsalot]

Oh yea I just figured it out, if survivor ever claims or is found they will lynch survivor. Because once the survivor is known, they can be nk'd by scum. If they ever get to a point where they are working with town, the final scum player can nk survivor making survivor lose. So in any scenario survivor will only be allowe to live if they cooperate with scum to create a majority and
Lynch or no lynch for a scum victory. Town doesn't want that to Halle and needs to lynch a claimed survivor. A hidden survivor can be more flexible and work towards a town win.

This means as far as survivor, it is essentially an anti-town power. They will never be more helpful to town than a vt. I can see that giving survivor a power makes it potentially better for town but has the potential to be even worse.

[EFHW]

This means as far as survivor, it is essentially an anti-town power. They will never be more helpful to town than a vt. I can see that giving survivor a power makes it potentially better for town but has the potential to be even worse.

Does having the survivor help balance this game, then?

[mcmcsalot]

I think the question is not "Do we lynch the Survivor?" but "When do we lynch the Survivor?" You'd rather lynch scum early on, but if you get to the point where the Survivor can help scum win the next Day, the Survivor has to go. I guess based on that a claimed Survivor would want to help Town win so it doesn't come to that.

Claimed survivor has to "help town"(it's not like they know who scum is so they would just be scum hunting) but claimed survivor as I described will never win with town. I mean I guess scum would want to continue not killing survivor till the end. I was thinking scum would bitterly take survivor down with them. But it all depends on if the scum thinks they will get lynche the next day or not.

[mcmcsalot]

This means as far as survivor, it is essentially an anti-town power. They will never be more helpful to town than a vt. I can see that giving survivor a power makes it potentially better for town but has the potential to be even worse.

Does having the survivor help balance this game, then?

I would think so, it definety weakens town. Though only slightly.

[ashersky]

I still disagree.  If I'm the survivor, I claim D1 immediately, and broker a deal with town and scum.  Why? 

1)  I win no matter who wins, so long as I don't die.  That's all I care about.  Not town, not scum, just surviving to win.
2)  I have an NK.  That means I can affect the game at night at any point that I'm still alive, including killing claimed PRs, etc. if I want.
3)  I have a vote.  That means I can affect who gets lynched during the day.

Why do those things matter?  It's in the best interest of town that I NOT use my NK, since I'm most likely going to hit town (see town vigs in almost every game).  It's also in the best interest of town that I NOT vote, since anti-town voters help mislynch more often, especially since I don't have partners to bus.  That means that with 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch, but without my vote, scum needs 50% of town or more to mislynch (8 votes out of 13 players, 10 of whom are town means if ALL 3 scum vote for one town player, you still need 5 town votes).

So then, why won't scum NK me?  Because I inflate their team for the endgame.  As mentioned, I basically count as a 4th member, and give town one less mislynch for the game.  3 scum, 3 town is a scum win (generally, not taking into account JK and such).  With survivor, scum with with 4 town alive.

The greatest risk is a spiteful town lynching survivor anyway.

[Jimmmmm]

But if scum start winning, Town will have to lynch you to avoid you counting as a 4th scum member.

[liopoil]

I would assume that survivor doesn't count like that. scum wincon is "you win when you control half the town or nothing else can prevent that from happening". "the town" is all living player, so in a situation with two scum, two town, and a survivor, scum only controls 2/5 of the town.

[EFHW]

I still disagree.  If I'm the survivor, I claim D1 immediately, and broker a deal with town and scum.  Why?  ....
....  It's in the best interest of town that I NOT use my NK, since I'm most likely going to hit town (see town vigs in almost every game).  It's also in the best interest of town that I NOT vote, since anti-town voters help mislynch more often, especially since I don't have partners to bus. 

These seem like good reasons to lynch the survivor if he or she claims.  Especially since D1 is most likely going to be a mislynch otherwise.  What's in it for town to keep the survivor alive?

[ashersky]

I still disagree.  If I'm the survivor, I claim D1 immediately, and broker a deal with town and scum.  Why?  ....
....  It's in the best interest of town that I NOT use my NK, since I'm most likely going to hit town (see town vigs in almost every game).  It's also in the best interest of town that I NOT vote, since anti-town voters help mislynch more often, especially since I don't have partners to bus. 

These seem like good reasons to lynch the survivor if he or she claims.  Especially since D1 is most likely going to be a mislynch otherwise.  What's in it for town to keep the survivor alive?

Lynch mafia, not scum.

If I'm town, I'm going to argue to keep the survivor around the keep mislynch numbers down.  I might try to convince him to join town, especially if we get a scum lynch.  He's the wildcard, and more useful alive than dead.

[EFHW]

I revised the house plans and weakened town's powers.  Tell me what you think.