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[sudgy]

I already said about 837495 times already, those were for pressure.

[nkirbit]

Also, I have a townread on raerae.  She seems to be her normal self, a lot different than she was in MXXII.

Can you support this?  I've never read MXXII, but I'm skimming it now and am not convinced that she is "a lot different" there.  That doesn't necessarily implicate her.. she may simply be experienced enough to make her town and scum selves similar.  But support your case please.

[Eevee]

Also, I have a townread on raerae.  She seems to be her normal self, a lot different than she was in MXXII.

Can you support this?  I've never read MXXII, but I'm skimming it now and am not convinced that she is "a lot different" there.  That doesn't necessarily implicate her.. she may simply be experienced enough to make her town and scum selves similar.  But support your case please.

I don't agree with this. Raerae is pretty good, she won't be caught because she is similar or not. She'll feel similar or not for reasons outside her alignment.

[Eevee]

I already said about 837495 times already, those were for pressure.

What pressure though? Wasn't it fairly obvious I simply couldn't get to the forums and that I would start posting once that changed again. At the very minimum what you did was a very poor way of using your vote, I don't know if it's particularly mafia-y, but maybe you did it to seem active and scumhunty without actually commiting to anything.

[sudgy]

I already said about 837495 times already, those were for pressure.

What pressure though? Wasn't it fairly obvious I simply couldn't get to the forums and that I would start posting once that changed again. At the very minimum what you did was a very poor way of using your vote, I don't know if it's particularly mafia-y, but maybe you did it to seem active and scumhunty without actually commiting to anything.

I didn't notice that you were gone, that's why I changed later.   I caught up in this thread before I caught up in the V/LA thread.

Also, I have a townread on raerae.  She seems to be her normal self, a lot different than she was in MXXII.

Can you support this?  I've never read MXXII, but I'm skimming it now and am not convinced that she is "a lot different" there.  That doesn't necessarily implicate her.. she may simply be experienced enough to make her town and scum selves similar.  But support your case please.

I don't agree with this. Raerae is pretty good, she won't be caught because she is similar or not. She'll feel similar or not for reasons outside her alignment.

She was ultra-lurky (it was justified for the first bit but afterwards not much) and not asking many questions there.

[Eevee]

I think "questionsasking raerae = town raerae" is just SUCH an oversimplification. You really think that's something she wouldn't realize to do as scum just as well?

The explanation about reading this thread before VLA thread makes sense, if true.

[nkirbit]

I'm only comparing day ones here, because I think that's all that's fair to compare and all that I really want to read at this point, but after the point she subbed in, I don't view her as lurking at all.

[nkirbit]

Anyway, I mostly agree with Eevee's comeback post.  I'm not as convinced as he is that TA is town, but I'm not as convinced as I earlier was that he is scum.  This being said, I want to go back and re-read raerae, because either:

1) I get a scumread on raerae and will be happy supporting that lynch; or
2) I get a null or town-read on raerae, and a lot of my worries about the support of Lio's bandwagon get ameliorated, and I get much comfortable voting Lio.  At this point I'd want to re-read him.

But off I go to re-read raerae.  Back in a bit!

[EFHW]

We're coming down to deadline, so time to solidify my reads.  BTW, I will be around until 5 and then after 8, probably not in between.

TA: I voted for him because of this:

Again, you are finding me scummy for not meeting criteria that you yourself do not meet.  Do you see why I think you're being unfair?

Yes I can, but context matters, also. I'm not talking about number of votes, I'm talking about reads unsupported by votes.

I think the fact that you're attempting to discredit my case rather than defend yourself speaks volumes, as well.

The bolded part struck me as scummy - it is illogical to fault nkirbit for attacking his case and "speaks volumes" is the kind of dramatization scum use to try to increase the apparent significance of what they are seeing.  TA later said he meant "discredit me", but that is also illogical to attack him for, and is not what nkirbit seemed to be doing.  This kind of scummy argument will always get my vote.  I also think it is unhelpful for town to have these protracted arguments that go around in circles.

Now, this does not mean I find TA the scummiest, and I am not going to argue for a TA lynch today.

I think Xeiron and sudgy are scummier than TA and would vote for either of them.  I agree with Eevee's and nkirbit's assessments of them as seeming to vote without much thought or careful reasoning.  I would like to know why raerae is against a sudgy lynch.

Liopoil could be a lot more active, but I don't currently find him scummy.  If he continues to lurk like this, that may change. 

Mail-mi does seem scummy, but isn't around to claim so that will have to wait for another day.  I think it is strange for Eevee to say that mail-mi's lack of content is so egregious it isn't even scummy.  It's totally scummy, and I wonder if Eevee is looking for an excuse not to vote for mail-mi.

raerae is towny except for her reluctance to take stances.  She promised them closer to deadline - I think we're there now!

While Eevee's backing off of mail-mi seems odd, we haven't really seen enough to know if he is scummy or not, and I don't want to pursue him as a lynch right now.

For the sake of unmuddling the vote counts since I don't want to push a TA lynch today, I'll unvote.  But I have my eye on you TA!

[sudgy]

I think "questionsasking raerae = town raerae" is just SUCH an oversimplification. You really think that's something she wouldn't realize to do as scum just as well?

The explanation about reading this thread before VLA thread makes sense, if true.

The main thing was, when she WAS scum, she acted quite a bit different.

[Eevee]

I think mail-mi is scummy, just not scummy in the context of analyzing the xeiron-mailmi-sudgy - trio.

[nkirbit]

I think "questionsasking raerae = town raerae" is just SUCH an oversimplification. You really think that's something she wouldn't realize to do as scum just as well?

The explanation about reading this thread before VLA thread makes sense, if true.

The main thing was, when she WAS scum, she acted quite a bit different.

Sorry, I just don't see the difference between raerae here and raerae in bankers day 1.  After she was subbed in, she was active from what I'm reading.

[Eevee]

I agree, but I don't claim to be able read raerae very well at all. She always seems the same to me.

[nkirbit]

Okay!  Here's my re-reading of raerae.

She starts off the early game by asking players specific questions about things they have posted.  I like this, and think it's a good way to get information.  This caused me to have a townread on her.  Going back and re-reading, it is worth noting that a decent amount of questions were never going anywhere.  It is somewhat assuming that she questions TA's definition of active contributor when he called me one, considering what happened.

She votes Lio when he ignores her questions, and follows the vote up by asking myself and EFHW our opinions of Lio's ignoring her questions.  She continues to put fairly heavy pressure on him, but her entire reason for the pressure is Lio missing some questions.

I find it extremely odd that she initially shared no opinion of myself and TA voting for each other, had no questions, anything of that sort.  It's clearly been the biggest event of the day, yet she didn't comment on it until she was explicitly asked to by me, at which point she said she wasn't convinced with either.  Everyone else that she's had issues with, she's immediately hit with a question.  If TA and my cases were both bad, why weren't they hit by questions?  I don't know.  In fact, here she says:

Raerae, what do you think of TA's case and my case?  You haven't commented on either.

I'm not sold on either of them.  Your vote on him did feel like an OMGUS (oh my god you're stupid) vote.  What interests me is your rather loud reaction to two votes and a single case on you.

Fair enough.  But if it interested you so much, why didn't you ask me about it?  That seems to be how you react to every other situation that's interested you.

She states that she thinks TA vs nkirbit is townvstown based on the lack of responses.

Recently, she said her vote was on Sudgy, but she'd be okay with EFHW or Xeiron.  What happened to Lio?  Did I miss a reason why you're not suspicious anymore?

I honestly have no idea what to make of this.  I do think it's odd that she didn't probe into the TA vs nkirbit issue, and isn't suspicious of Lio any more and hasn't said why, but I have no idea if that makes her scummy or not.

[nkirbit]

Also:  Both raerae and EFHW aren't going to be back until 8pm.  TA is about to get on an airplane and come home, but there's certainly going to be bad traffic in the area, and I'm not sure when he's getting back.

Should we consider moving the deadline back an hour or so to leave more room for discussion?  Or leave it where it is?

[nkirbit]

Or never mind.  Leave it where it is.  If we're an hour late, we're an hour late.. moving it back won't help that.

[liopoil]

wow, lotsa posts, I'm here, will catch up and look at mail-mi. On raerae, I agree she played differently than normal in bankers but this isn't like that, this is more like what I remember from DS9 and another dinner party. As such I lean town on her.

[Eevee]

nkirbit, your thoughts on sudgy and xeiron?

[liopoil]

Lio,xeiron, efhw, were your votes made because of pressure by myself and nkirbit or because you thought we were most likely to turn up scum?

I thought you were quite likely to flip scum. Since then I've changed my mind.

[nkirbit]

On Sudgy:

He feels scummy to me.  Posts like these are so sheepy, and that comes off as suspicious.

Vote: nkirbit

I agree with TA's case, and I feel like he has been over-defending.

I think his jumping between voting me, then eevee, then back to mail-mi, then back to me in so few posts was odd.  His read on raerae is odd to me since I've read day one of bankers after raerae about 5 times since sudgy posted that and I just don't see any way whatsoever that raerae was lurking day1 of that game.  Maybe it happened later, but I don't think we should be comparing day3 of another game to day1 here.. they're just so different.

But, I had these same feelings about Sudgy in another game, and he was town.  So I'm uneasy about voting him.  He does look scummy, but I don't particularly trust my ability to read him.

[Eevee]

I'm fine with being sheepy to an extent (as some people just are like that), but taking a scummy position in a sheepy way is what makes it suspicious to me.

[nkirbit]

Which scummy position are you referring to?

I'm going to be back in about an hour or so, hopefully.

[liopoil]

Mail-mi:

13 posts, totally absent for a while now on V/LA.

He's the first to bring up lovers. Doesn't say much when he is here. misses raerae's questions just like me.

ugh, we probably shouldn't lynch him. But man, being totally gone for however long... a week? is really bad...

And ugh, I don't know who to lynch.

[Eevee]

The one you just quoted. The way I see it, here are the possible reactions to the nkirbit-twistedarcher argument, from towniest to scummiest.

"seems like town on town"

"nkirbit is right, vote: ta"

"ta is right, vote: nkirbit"


And the more time someone takes before commiting to any of these three, the scummier he is (I could see scum waiting to see which side will "win" before choosing their opinion).

[liopoil]

you could also say: "obv. scumteam, I'll lynch whichever." That one I think is the most anti-town but it would really depend on wording.