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[StrongRhino]

I know TR-Treasure Map doesn't work, but would a TR on a Treasure Map with two other Treasure Maps in your hand work?

[math]

Treasure map says, "If you did trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck."

You play TR-Treasure Map with 2 Treasure Maps in hand.  You play Treasure Map, trash it and a Treasure Map from your hand, and gain 4 Golds.  Now you play Treasure Map again and trash a Treasure Map from hand.  However, you cannot trash the one from play because it lost track of itself, so you don't gain any Golds.

[Morgrim7]

For the same reason you cant trash a Mining Village twice. Or Embargo. Or Pillage. Or any self-trashers.

[Davio]

Treasure map says, "If you did trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck."

You play TR-Treasure Map with 2 Treasure Maps in hand.  You play Treasure Map, trash it and a Treasure Map from your hand, and gain 4 Golds.  Now you play Treasure Map again and trash a Treasure Map from hand.  However, you cannot trash the one from play because it lost track of itself, so you don't gain any Golds.

Lose track has nothing to do with it. It's just that you can only trash a single TM once.
No card ever loses track of itself I think, lose track only happens when cards can't find other cards.

[WanderingWinder]

Treasure map says, "If you did trash two Treasure Maps, gain 4 Gold cards, putting them on top of your deck."

You play TR-Treasure Map with 2 Treasure Maps in hand.  You play Treasure Map, trash it and a Treasure Map from your hand, and gain 4 Golds.  Now you play Treasure Map again and trash a Treasure Map from hand.  However, you cannot trash the one from play because it lost track of itself, so you don't gain any Golds.

Lose track has nothing to do with it. It's just that you can only trash a single TM once.

But isn't the reason for that because of the lose track rule? I would think this would be the point. I could well be wrong here.

[Drab Emordnilap]

You can't trash the one from play because its already in the trash. It can't go to the trash a second time because its already there.

If Treasure Map said "trash or return to the supply" instead of trash, you could throne it, trash it and one from your hand, then play it again, return it from the trash to the supply (with the third from your hand), and get 8 golds. I think.

[GendoIkari]

You can't trash the one from play because its already in the trash. It can't go to the trash a second time because its already there.

If Treasure Map said "trash or return to the supply" instead of trash, you could throne it, trash it and one from your hand, then play it again, return it from the trash to the supply (with the third from your hand), and get 8 golds. I think.

I *think* that's right... but I also seem to remember last month I mentioned that a card can never lose track of itself, and someone provided an example that proves that wrong. But with any of the "trash this; if you do" cards, I believe the reason you can't Throne them isn't lose track, it's simply that the definition of "trash" is to move a card from some non-trash location into the trash pile. A card in the trash can never be "trashed" because it already is "trash."

[SirPeebles]

You can't trash the one from play because its already in the trash. It can't go to the trash a second time because its already there.

If Treasure Map said "trash or return to the supply" instead of trash, you could throne it, trash it and one from your hand, then play it again, return it from the trash to the supply (with the third from your hand), and get 8 golds. I think.

I *think* that's right... but I also seem to remember last month I mentioned that a card can never lose track of itself, and someone provided an example that proves that wrong. But with any of the "trash this; if you do" cards, I believe the reason you can't Throne them isn't lose track, it's simply that the definition of "trash" is to move a card from some non-trash location into the trash pile. A card in the trash can never be "trashed" because it already is "trash."

A card never loses track of itself due to movement it directly caused.  It can certainly lose track of itself if some external force moves it before it's done resolving itself.

[Asper]

For the same reason you cant trash a Mining Village twice. Or Embargo. Or Pillage. Or any self-trashers.

Mining Village is a good example. Embargo and Pillage are not. The reason Mining Village fits is that trashing the card is conditional to recieving the +2$, just as trashing TM itself is for gaining the Golds. Throning Embargo doesn't change the amount of Coin or Embargo Tokens given out, even though the card isn't trashed on second play. Pillage is the same (though usually the attack won't have an effect the second time).

[popsofctown]

So does Throne Room lose track of Mining Village, or not?

[KingZog3]

So does Throne Room lose track of Mining Village, or not?

It has nothing to do with losing track. Mining Village says "If you do, +$2." So you play it once with TR, then trash it for $2, then try to trash it again, but you didn't since it was already trashed, so the "If you do" condition is not fulfilled. Embargo just says $2 and place a token. That happens whether it is trashed on not, so you CAN throne room it.

I know TR-Treasure Map doesn't work, but would a TR on a Treasure Map with two other Treasure Maps in your hand work?

Treasure Map  requires you trash two copies each time, then "If you do, gain 4 Golds etc... You TR it. It says to trash it, so you do, then trash a second copy, so you do. You then gain 4 Golds because you trashed the Treasure Map from play and the one in your hand. The second time you cannot trash the Treasure Map that was in play because it is already trashed. However, you MUST trash the second Treasure map that was in your hand, because the card says you must. You do not get another 4 Golds though, so really you wouldn't want to TR the initial Treasure Map.

Summary: It has to do with the "If you do" part of the card. Look at Madman. You can't TR it and I believe it even says that in the rule book.

"Nothing will prevent you from returning Madman to the Madman pile, but you may fail due to playing Madman via Procession, Throne Room, or King's Court. So, for example, if you Procession a Madman, you get +2Actions, return madman to the madman pile, draw a card per card in your hand, get another +2Actions, fail to return Madman to the Madman pile and so not draw cards a second time..."

You fail to trash Treasure Map a second time, so you may not get the second 4 Golds.

I hope that was clearer than others. Again, nothing to do with losing track of cards.

[DStu]

So does Throne Room lose track of Mining Village, or not?

It has nothing to do with losing track. Mining Village says "If you do, +$2." So you play it once with TR, then trash it for $2, then try to trash it again, but you didn't since it was already trashed, so the "If you do" condition is not fulfilled. Embargo just says $2 and place a token. That happens whether it is trashed on not, so you CAN throne room it.
...
I hope that was clearer than others. Again, nothing to do with losing track of cards.

I think the question here is why can't you trash cards that are already in the trash?". When you e.g. also can play cards that are already in play.  And that's where the answer from most is "lose track" 

[eHalcyon]

So does Throne Room lose track of Mining Village, or not?

It has nothing to do with losing track. Mining Village says "If you do, +$2." So you play it once with TR, then trash it for $2, then try to trash it again, but you didn't since it was already trashed, so the "If you do" condition is not fulfilled. Embargo just says $2 and place a token. That happens whether it is trashed on not, so you CAN throne room it.
...
I hope that was clearer than others. Again, nothing to do with losing track of cards.

I think the question here is why can't you trash cards that are already in the trash?". When you e.g. also can play cards that are already in play.  And that's where the answer from most is "lose track"

I think the "trash" action is defined as: "move a card from [specified location] to the trash", where the location is always from play (e.g. Treasure Map, Mint), from hand (e.g. Chapel) or from a deck (e.g. Lookout, Saboteur).  If a card is already in a trash, as on the second play of TMap via TR, then you cannot move it from the location to the trash.  You cannot trash a trashed card.  But TR lets you play a played card a second time.

[AJD]

So does Throne Room lose track of Mining Village, or not?

It has nothing to do with losing track. Mining Village says "If you do, +$2." So you play it once with TR, then trash it for $2, then try to trash it again, but you didn't since it was already trashed, so the "If you do" condition is not fulfilled.

Losing track comes up with Possession, though. If it's a Possession turn, here's what happens:

Play Throne Room
...Play Mining Village once
......Get +1 card, +2 actions
......Trash the Mining Village
.........Possession sets aside the Mining Village
......Get +$2
...Play Mining Village a second time
......Get +1 card, +2 actions
......Try to trash the Mining Village, but fail—not because it's already in the trash (it's not), but because it's lost track of itself due to being moved by Possession
......Don't get +$2

[KingZog3]

So does Throne Room lose track of Mining Village, or not?

It has nothing to do with losing track. Mining Village says "If you do, +$2." So you play it once with TR, then trash it for $2, then try to trash it again, but you didn't since it was already trashed, so the "If you do" condition is not fulfilled.

Losing track comes up with Possession, though. If it's a Possession turn, here's what happens:

Play Throne Room
...Play Mining Village once
......Get +1 card, +2 actions
......Trash the Mining Village
.........Possession sets aside the Mining Village
......Get +$2
...Play Mining Village a second time
......Get +1 card, +2 actions
......Try to trash the Mining Village, but fail—not because it's already in the trash (it's not), but because it's lost track of itself due to being moved by Possession
......Don't get +$2

Yes this is true. The Lose Track rule happens with specific card interactions. I was just talking about normal playing of cards that say "Trash this. If you do..."

[Jeebus]

The lose-track rule kind of has to do with why you can't trash a self-trasher twice, even though in normal circumstances nobody needs to think about this quite so technically. It's easier just to say "you can't trash it because it's already in the trash". That's true anyway, but it's not the whole truth.

First of all "trashing" is defined as moving a card to trash, so when a card is already in the trash, it can't be trashed. But the reason a self-trasher stays in the trash, is lose-track. This first came up when people asked exactly why you couldn't trash Mining Village twice with Throne Room, and in fact it's the first time Donald explained the lose-track rule, which he realized was needed even for just those two cards, but he hadn't caught it when making the Intrigue rulebook.

Throne Room + Mining Village. Throne Room tells you to play the MV, which entails moving it from your hand to your play area. Then you get +2 Actions, trash it, and get +2 Coins. Then TR tells you to play it again, which means to move it to your play area from where it's expected to be. It's expected to already be in play, but something else moved it in the meantime, so it's not there and so can't be moved to your play area. Without the lose-track rule, TR would move MV back to play, and then MV could be trashed again.

The same is true of Throne Room + Treasure Map.

[Warfreak2]

Does Throne Room really try to move cards to the play area again before playing them the second time? For normal cards, that's impossible, they can't be moved to somewhere they are already. By my reckoning, a literal Throne Room would say "place an action card from your hand in the play area, then follow its instructions, then follow them again". Why would it need to move it into the play area a second time? Where would it think it was moving the card from, the second time, if not the play area already?

[Warfreak2]

As for the idea that the Mining Village can't be trashed a second time because it lost track of itself, I'm pretty sure that it's impossible for a card to lose track of itself.

[AJD]

Does Throne Room really try to move cards to the play area again before playing them the second time? For normal cards, that's impossible, they can't be moved to somewhere they are already. By my reckoning, a literal Throne Room would say "place an action card from your hand in the play area, then follow its instructions, then follow them again". Why would it need to move it into the play area a second time? Where would it think it was moving the card from, the second time, if not the play area already?

The point is just that Throne Room says to play it a second time, and part of playing a card is putting it into the play area.

[AJD]

As for the idea that the Mining Village can't be trashed a second time because it lost track of itself, I'm pretty sure that it's impossible for a card to lose track of itself.

Not true; Mining Village loses track of itself in the case of the Throne Room / Mining Village / Possession combo. In that case, MV tries to trash itself a second time but it can't, not because it's already in the trash (it's not), but because it's been moved by Possession to someplace other than where it expects itself to be.

[SirPeebles]

I'm pretty sure that it's impossible for a card to lose track of itself.

It is possible.  So long as something other than the card itself caused it to move.

Play three differently named action cards, and then play Counterfeit on a Horn of Plenty.  On the first play of Horn of Plenty, gain a Mandarin.  Mandarin's on-gain effect top decks your Horn of Plenty and Counterfeit.  Now Counterfeit plays your Horn of Plenty again (but can't put it in play by Lose Track).  This time gain an Estate.  Horn of Plenty now tries to trash itself since it gained a Victory card, but it has lost track of itself, and can't.  Oh, and then Counterfeit fails to trash the Horn of Plenty too.

[ednever]

It would work if Treasure Map read:

------
Trash this.
You may trash a Treasure Map from your hand. If you do gain 4 gold.
------

Another thought:
Treasure Map has the Throne Room wording problem. It's an edge case, but imagine if you played a Treasure Map, had a TM in hand, but for some reason didn't want to trash the in-hand TM. (Easy enough to make up some story as to why).
It has the problem that a player could cheat and there is no way to verify.
Ideally it should have the wording above, or it should end with, "...or reveal a hand with no Treasure Maps"

Ed

[Jeebus]

Does Throne Room really try to move cards to the play area again before playing them the second time? For normal cards, that's impossible, they can't be moved to somewhere they are already. By my reckoning, a literal Throne Room would say "place an action card from your hand in the play area, then follow its instructions, then follow them again". Why would it need to move it into the play area a second time? Where would it think it was moving the card from, the second time, if not the play area already?

It's weird to think about, yeah. Normally, TR tries to move the card from play to play the second time. Of course it doesn't work, not because of lose-track, but because it's already there. Theoretical card: "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it, trash it, then play it again." This would actually move the card back from trash to play. So the card would actually not end up in trash.

Anyway, playing a card means moving it to play, but it means other stuff too. If your proposed card text for TR were the actual text, it would never actually tell you to play the card. So if you Throned Witch, no Moat could be revealed since no Attack card was played.

[SirPeebles]

Does Throne Room really try to move cards to the play area again before playing them the second time? For normal cards, that's impossible, they can't be moved to somewhere they are already. By my reckoning, a literal Throne Room would say "place an action card from your hand in the play area, then follow its instructions, then follow them again". Why would it need to move it into the play area a second time? Where would it think it was moving the card from, the second time, if not the play area already?

Theoretical card: "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it, trash it, then play it again." This would actually move the card back from trash to play. So the card would actually not end up in trash.

Hmm.  I suppose that this card would lose track of Fortress.  Also, would it lose track of a self trasher like Feast?  Feast will have moved itself, so Theoretical card can't trash it.  But then Theoretical card would fail to find Feast in the trash to replay, right?

[Asper]

I think TR is weird sometimes. Donald stressed that it "locks in" on the card it plays, which is one of the reasons why TR-Band of Misfits works the way it does. So you choose a card, it locks in, you play it, resolve it, and play the locked card again, no matter where it is.

So lose track should play no role for TR, as it locks in anyhow... But wait a minute... Procession loses track sometimes, doesn't it?

Honestly, i don't know what to make of it.