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[michaeljb]

I remember reading people theorize about this happening, and well I've just started a game where it happened. I saw it right away, but my opponent didn't realize it till I had bought my Young Witch.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/27n2hse0xpjkbkg/page%201.png
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pfyff6viwggsvdn/page%202.png?m
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k141k5cjp2ybkg7/opponent%20didnt%20see%20young%20witch.png?m


Just tried to bump this thread at getsatisfaction, but I can't log in there. Says they've emailed me a verification code, but my inbox disagrees.

[Beyond Awesome]

Instead of bumping the thread, you should create a new one with those screen captures, I think. To be honest, I think that is messed up. Already, it is messed up that an 11th card is on the next page. But, having an opponent miss YW isn't cool because it costs $4.

[michaeljb]

Well either way I have not had success logging on to getsatisfaction, so...yeah

[ftl]

I posted it there

[michaeljb]

I have now been able to log on...through facebook

[kn1tt3r]

Well, technically there's nothing wrong about YW being on the second page, but yeah, it's somewhat... inconvenient. The issue is not really about Young Witch, it's about sorting kingdom cards by their cost, no matter what.

I suppose it would be quite simple to always put the bane card to the second page, but I don't really see a big problem with the way it is now. With all those additional supply and non-supply piles existing today (especially after Dark Ages), a second page is actually quite common and you get used to it very quickly.

[SirPeebles]

The bane on the second page would be worse than YW, in my opinion.  That big fancy bane graphic is what catches my eye immediately and alerts me that there is a YW and an 11th card.

[Morgrim7]

Is having two pages really that big of a problem?

[loppo]

Is having two pages really that big of a problem?

having two pages is not the problem. The problem is autoplay syndrome. You are so used to playing with 10 cards, that it sometimes slips past you that this time there is an 11th card.

I think the problem could be solved if at hte beginnig a little animation would show the 2nd page with all the content. So you are informed that this game you have additional cards. that would solve most situations.

[Emeric]

I think the problem could be solved if at hte beginnig a little animation would show the 2nd page with all the content. So you are informed that this game you have additional cards. that would solve most situations.

nice idea ! Showing all the card on a popup at the start of the game with the "ok" button on the second page solves the "non problem"

[Davio]

Is having two pages really that big of a problem?

Two pages is a problem if you know you can do it with one.
Just collapse the card images or something.

[SCSN]

What is very annoying, though, is that if you want to buy a card on the second page, it flips back to the first both after you first click "play treasures", and after each subsequent purchase (which makes, say, emptying the ruins pile quite a hassle).

[SirPeebles]

Is having two pages really that big of a problem?

Two pages is a problem if you know you can do it with one.
Just collapse the card images or something.

It's not like we're trying to fit just one more card.  You need to be able to fit

10 - Kingdom Cards
3 - Copper/Silver/Gold
3 - Estate/Duchy/Province
1 - Curse
2 - Colony/Platinum
1 - Potion
1 - YW's Bane
5 - Prizes
1 - Ruins
1 - Spoils
1 - Madman
1 - Mercenary

Currently those latter ten cards go onto a second page (well, it's not necessarily the bane itself, but you know).  So they currently have things set up so that it will just barely never spill onto a third page.  That sounds like better design than we generally give them credit for. 

Now let's sit back and watch Guilds causes spillage to the third page.

On the other hand, there are still plenty of things to make the two page system -- which I think is a reasonable model -- more user friendly.

[hsiale]

It's not like we're trying to fit just one more card.

Prizes, Spoils, Madman and Mercenary can be on the second page. They are not in the Supply. Important thing is to fit all Supply piles on the first page (because they can trigger game ending). So the only thing that needs to be added is bane and Ruins.

[ftl]

What is very annoying, though, is that if you want to buy a card on the second page, it flips back to the first both after you first click "play treasures", and after each subsequent purchase (which makes, say, emptying the ruins pile quite a hassle).

Ugh, yeah. Once Peddler was on the second page for me, and I had a bunch of buys, and I clicked twice on the "buy peddler" button... but it flipped pages between my two clicks and so I accidentally spent $3 on something I completely didn't need.

[Morgrim7]

It is your duty to overcome autoplay syndrome. Dont blame it on goko.

[werothegreat]

Is having two pages really that big of a problem?

Two pages is a problem if you know you can do it with one.
Just collapse the card images or something.

It's not like we're trying to fit just one more card.  You need to be able to fit

10 - Kingdom Cards
3 - Copper/Silver/Gold
3 - Estate/Duchy/Province
1 - Curse
2 - Colony/Platinum
1 - Potion
1 - YW's Bane
5 - Prizes
1 - Ruins
1 - Spoils
1 - Madman
1 - Mercenary

Currently those latter ten cards go onto a second page (well, it's not necessarily the bane itself, but you know).  So they currently have things set up so that it will just barely never spill onto a third page.  That sounds like better design than we generally give them credit for. 

Now let's sit back and watch Guilds causes spillage to the third page.

On the other hand, there are still plenty of things to make the two page system -- which I think is a reasonable model -- more user friendly.

Guilds doesn't have anything other than kingdom cards, so unless one of them adds an extra pile like YW (which I doubt), it's not going to.

[philosophyguy]

It is your duty to overcome autoplay syndrome. Dont blame it on goko.

I find this attitude really unfortunate. I've talked about this before, but part of good UI design is making it so that users are actively discouraged (whether consciously or unconsciously) from making mistakes. This is why the community pushed hard for an undo button with playing treasures on iso. It's why we clamored to not autoplay coppers when you can buy a GM. It's why we pushed Goko to visually distinguish between trashing, discarding, and playing, and why we requested more descriptive buttons than "Done."

In this case, there's several mistakes that occur relatively often because of the way the UI is structured. It could be fixed by putting all the supply piles (so not Madmen, Spoils, Prizes, etc.) on one page. Since part of Goko's pitch was to play anywhere, on any size screen, resizing the icons to fit an extra two piles (the bane and ruins) should be extremely easy for their system.

Saying that Goko should fix their interface doesn't absolve players from autoplay syndrome—you can't claim autoplay as an excuse to replay the game in a tournament, and for good reason—but it does show that Goko is providing a subpar product that they should have the capacity to fix. And I for one will keep pushing Goko to do so, because I think this is enough of a play issue to be worth spending coding time on.

[Beyond Awesome]

It is your duty to overcome autoplay syndrome. Dont blame it on goko.

I find this attitude really unfortunate. I've talked about this before, but part of good UI design is making it so that users are actively discouraged (whether consciously or unconsciously) from making mistakes. This is why the community pushed hard for an undo button with playing treasures on iso. It's why we clamored to not autoplay coppers when you can buy a GM. It's why we pushed Goko to visually distinguish between trashing, discarding, and playing, and why we requested more descriptive buttons than "Done."

In this case, there's several mistakes that occur relatively often because of the way the UI is structured. It could be fixed by putting all the supply piles (so not Madmen, Spoils, Prizes, etc.) on one page. Since part of Goko's pitch was to play anywhere, on any size screen, resizing the icons to fit an extra two piles (the bane and ruins) should be extremely easy for their system.

Saying that Goko should fix their interface doesn't absolve players from autoplay syndrome—you can't claim autoplay as an excuse to replay the game in a tournament, and for good reason—but it does show that Goko is providing a subpar product that they should have the capacity to fix. And I for one will keep pushing Goko to do so, because I think this is enough of a play issue to be worth spending coding time on.

I agree with everything you just said. There is no reason why we should settle for a subpar product.

[Morgrim7]

Then dont play Goko. What good will it do? I think its time to accept that Iso is gone.

[eHalcyon]

Then dont play Goko. What good will it do? I think its time to accept that Iso is gone.

iso was only brought up in this thread as an example of when the community pushed for better UI.  This was not an "I wish we still had iso" thread.  The whole point of this thread is that Goko is what we have, so we should push for it to be the best it can be.  And that includes better UI.  The community pushed for iso to have better UI and dougz kindly obliged; why shouldn't we push for Goko to do better and expect them to respond?

[Morgrim7]

eHal, do you really think that Goko is going to fix the second-page thing? How would they do that? Re-size the screen?

[DStu]

eHal, do you really think that Goko is going to fix the second-page thing? How would they do that? Re-size the screen?

resize the images?

[Morgrim7]

eHal, do you really think that Goko is going to fix the second-page thing? How would they do that? Re-size the screen?

resize the images?

Small images. VERY small.

[eHalcyon]

eHal, do you really think that Goko is going to fix the second-page thing? How would they do that? Re-size the screen?

resize the images?

Small images. VERY small.

As someone (Davio?) pointed out, their platform should already be designed to have resizeable images, to accommodate different screen sizes. Squeezing an extra 2 cards should be doable. In fact, I remember seeing a mockup that did it.

But even if they couldn't do it, an opening animation (as suggested earlier in this thread) would be helpful.

[Watno]

I think they said they're working on a more flexible UIthat will actually use the whole screen and fix the second page problem. Don't remember where that was though.

[LastFootnote]

I think I've said this before, but the unofficial iOS version of Dominion had basic cards on one page and Kingdom cards on another, and you pushed a button to move between them. You had to traverse both pages in every game, so you'd never forget it was there. It's a great solution for phones and tablets, where tapping an icon is no big deal.

For players with computers, it would be annoying to have to click the icon. Solution: have a keyboard shortcut that switches the pages. I'd like to see more keyboard shortcuts in general. One of the first things I suggested to Goko was to have a key you could press to simultaneously expand and collapse the info for the other players. It gets really annoying clicking each little portrait by hand, especially when it's their turn and the portraits are moving targets.

[michaeljb]

I'd like to see more keyboard shortcuts in general.

+9001

Wait, I just noticed you said "more"...are there already some keyboard shortcuts I don't know about?

[DStu]

I'd like to see more keyboard shortcuts in general.

+9001

Wait, I just noticed you said "more"...are there already some keyboard shortcuts I don't know about?

alt+f4

[michaeljb]

I'd like to see more keyboard shortcuts in general.

+9001

Wait, I just noticed you said "more"...are there already some keyboard shortcuts I don't know about?

alt+f4

My Mac is immune to your trickery!

Reminds me of a redditor with a troll name, press-control-w

[Jacob marley]

Problem is, it's fine to say make the icons smaller when you are playing on a 22" widescreen monitor (like I do at home) but maybe not so fine when you are playing on an iPhone.  I can see where making the icons smaller to fit more on could make the iPhone version unplayable.

[eHalcyon]

Problem is, it's fine to say make the icons smaller when you are playing on a 22" widescreen monitor (like I do at home) but maybe not so fine when you are playing on an iPhone.  I can see where making the icons smaller to fit more on could make the iPhone version unplayable.

Use pages where necessary.  Use pages on the iPhone.  But it's kind of ridiculous to force the same layout on every machine.  When you have a larger screen, why not make use of the extra real estate?

For mobile devices, they could save room by offering a no-images option.  Androminion got by just fine with a single screen, AND it includes a log.

[shMerker]

Then dont play Goko. What good will it do? I think its time to accept that Iso is gone.

Is anyone even talking about Iso? The way this issue has been presented it sounds like it's a problem for people who have only played on Goko. What is anyone harming by bringing up a problem with the UI design?

[Schlippy]

Problem is, it's fine to say make the icons smaller when you are playing on a 22" widescreen monitor (like I do at home) but maybe not so fine when you are playing on an iPhone.  I can see where making the icons smaller to fit more on could make the iPhone version unplayable.

Use pages where necessary.  Use pages on the iPhone.  But it's kind of ridiculous to force the same layout on every machine.  When you have a larger screen, why not make use of the extra real estate?

For mobile devices, they could save room by offering a no-images option.  Androminion got by just fine with a single screen, AND it includes a log.

I'd like to second that. It is kind of annoying that goko only uses about a third of the available space on a 1080p display.

[GendoIkari]

Is having two pages really that big of a problem?

Absolutely, yes. Aside from the fact that it leads to actual issues such as people not knowing what cards are available in the Kingdom and having to page back and forth to get to the piles you want to look at; it also displays a huge lack of planning by Goko to think about their interface before implementing it. It shows that they weren't thinking very much about how the game of Dominion is actually played, either in real life or online. It's terrible from a user interface perspective, a Dominion perspective, and a programming perspective.

[markusin]

I feel like the UI options that are available are not obvious at all. For example, there's that tiny blue arrow you use to flip to the next set of cards in your discard pile when using cards like scavenger or counting house. That should be more obvious. I remember a thread about the annoyance of not knowing what all the knights do when knights are in the kingdom, but there's that small click-able box that displays all the differently named cards in the kingdom.

For me, I didn't find it fair to have to learn the hard way that your cards get played if you click on them through the chat dialog box. I just wanted to focus my cursor on it. It makes sense for the chat to work like that, since it can pop up at any moment in the middle of your turn, but having the chat box be far away from your hand is something I'd personally like to see. I suppose it's not that hard to adapt to the Goko's UI after playing enough games, but it can be really discouraging when that kind of stuff happens the first few times.

I'm thankful that Goko has worked out so many of its old issues, but there's always room for improvement and I think it's important for us, the users of the product and avid players of Dominion, to speak up about implementation problems and counter-intuitive design.