Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[LastFootnote]

I don't usually make Duration cards, but I thought I'd post this one, since I came up with it out of the blue.

Barge
Types: Action - Duration
Cost: $5
Coppers you play this turn produce $1 at the start of your next turn.

The Coppers stay in play, along with the Barge to remind you what's happening.

[AJD]

Wording revision?

"At the start of your cleanup phase this turn, set aside all Coppers you have in play. At the start of your next turn, play the Coppers again."

...That's not exactly the same effect as your statement, since Mint, Mandarin, and Counterfeit can interfere with it; but it's much easier to keep track of.

[LastFootnote]

Wording revision?

"At the start of your cleanup phase this turn, set aside all Coppers you have in play. At the start of your next turn, play the Coppers again."

...That's not exactly the same effect as your statement, since Mint, Mandarin, and Counterfeit can interfere with it; but it's much easier to keep track of.

Hmm, I don't have a strong objection to that wording, but could you explain how it's easier to keep track of?

[AJD]

Wording revision?

"At the start of your cleanup phase this turn, set aside all Coppers you have in play. At the start of your next turn, play the Coppers again."

...That's not exactly the same effect as your statement, since Mint, Mandarin, and Counterfeit can interfere with it; but it's much easier to keep track of.

Hmm, I don't have a strong objection to that wording, but could you explain how it's easier to keep track of?

Well, mainly because with your wording, Coppers that have been trashed or top-decked through Herbalist, Mint, Mandarin, or Counterfeit still produce $1 next turn (actually Coppers trashed through Counterfeit might produce $2 next turn), even though you don't have them there to remind you. (And I can't tell, from your wording, what it would do with Coppers played via Black Market before the Barge.) My wording makes it contingent on the Copper cards in play, rather than Copper being played, which is harder to track.

[AJD]

Also, in any event, your "The Coppers stay in play, along with the Barge to remind you what's happening" reminder would have to be on the card also, like:

—————
While this is in play, during your cleanup phase, do not discard Copper from play.

This also has weird effects if you should gain a Mandarin when it's not your turn, by the way.

[enfynet]

I don't usually make Duration cards, but I thought I'd post this one, since I came up with it out of the blue.

Barge
Types: Action - Duration
Cost: $5
Coppers you play this turn produce $1 at the start of your next turn.

The Coppers stay in play, along with the Barge to remind you what's happening.

You may discard any number of Coppers.
Now and at the start of your next turn: +$1 for each Copper discarded this way.

That should make tracking a bit easier.

[One Armed Man]

You may discard any number of Coppers.
Now and at the start of your next turn: +$1 for each Copper discarded this way.

That should make tracking a bit easier.

Not as easy as the set-aside version. It a large turn in a multiplayer, I may forget how many coppers I discarded and it will be difficult to remember.

[enfynet]

Alternatively:

Set aside any number of Copper from your hand. +$1 for each Copper set aside.
At the start of your next turn, put any cards set aside this way into your hand.

(my wording might be rusty, I haven't used Haven in a while)

[eHalcyon]

Part of the appeal for me is storing away Copper that could make them miss the reshuffle, so I'm not fond of the discarding version.

The set aside version might be a little confusing with Coppersmith, but no more than Black Market.

[enfynet]

Setting aside just means they aren't played this turn. Discarding means they aren't played either turn. Give the bonus $X to the action instead of the Copper and you avoid confusion with Coppersmith.

[LastFootnote]

AJD has convinced me that the set-aside wording is better. eHalcyon is correct that part of the idea is to make Coppers skip the reshuffle. Also, the discard version has too many tracking issues for my taste. Thanks for the idea, though.

I will update the OP with new wording.

EDIT: Hmm, I like enfynet's set-aside wording, too. I'll weigh the options and decide in little while.

[eHalcyon]

Setting aside just means they aren't played this turn. Discarding means they aren't played either turn. Give the bonus $X to the action instead of the Copper and you avoid confusion with Coppersmith.

The confusion is on the next turn, in that Coppers played before Coppersmith won't produce extra coin.

[Asper]

Setting aside just means they aren't played this turn. Discarding means they aren't played either turn. Give the bonus $X to the action instead of the Copper and you avoid confusion with Coppersmith.

The confusion is on the next turn, in that Coppers played before Coppersmith won't produce extra coin.

Not if, as with enfynets wording, the Copper is put in your hand instead of played.

[eHalcyon]

Setting aside just means they aren't played this turn. Discarding means they aren't played either turn. Give the bonus $X to the action instead of the Copper and you avoid confusion with Coppersmith.

The confusion is on the next turn, in that Coppers played before Coppersmith won't produce extra coin.

Not if, as with enfynets wording, the Copper is put in your hand instead of played.

I was responding to his comment directly, where he said that giving "the bonus $X to the action instead of the Copper" would avoid the confusion.  It doesn't if the Coppers are still played at the start of the next turn.  Yes, putting them in hand would fix it.

[Asper]

Setting aside just means they aren't played this turn. Discarding means they aren't played either turn. Give the bonus $X to the action instead of the Copper and you avoid confusion with Coppersmith.

The confusion is on the next turn, in that Coppers played before Coppersmith won't produce extra coin.

Not if, as with enfynets wording, the Copper is put in your hand instead of played.

I was responding to his comment directly, where he said that giving "the bonus $X to the action instead of the Copper" would avoid the confusion.  It doesn't if the Coppers are still played at the start of the next turn.  Yes, putting them in hand would fix it.

Except that nobody made up such a solution.

If you are talking about enfynets set-aside solution, Coppers are put in hand there. -> Coppersmith no issue.
If you are talking about enfynets discard solution, Coppers are not played next turn, but the Action gives the bonus instead. ->  Coppersmith no issue.
That second solution is bad for tracking, though.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your concern probably is why enfynet worded the cards this way in the first place.

[enfynet]

Coin tokens (Pirate Ship) could be a "fix" of sorts for the discarding version. But if the goal of the card is to prevent them from being discarded at the end of the turn, then set aside is the correct solution.

[eHalcyon]

Setting aside just means they aren't played this turn. Discarding means they aren't played either turn. Give the bonus $X to the action instead of the Copper and you avoid confusion with Coppersmith.

The confusion is on the next turn, in that Coppers played before Coppersmith won't produce extra coin.

Not if, as with enfynets wording, the Copper is put in your hand instead of played.

I was responding to his comment directly, where he said that giving "the bonus $X to the action instead of the Copper" would avoid the confusion.  It doesn't if the Coppers are still played at the start of the next turn.  Yes, putting them in hand would fix it.

Except that nobody made up such a solution.

If you are talking about enfynets set-aside solution, Coppers are put in hand there. -> Coppersmith no issue.
If you are talking about enfynets discard solution, Coppers are not played next turn, but the Action gives the bonus instead. ->  Coppersmith no issue.
That second solution is bad for tracking, though.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your concern probably is why enfynet worded the cards this way in the first place.

AJD's first solution set aside and then played Copper at the start of the next turn.  That was what I was responding to when I said that there could be confusion with Coppersmith.  Then enfynet responded right afterwards about Coppersmith confusion.

[Awaclus]

This thread causes more confusion than Coppersmith.

[SirPeebles]

I don't think AJD's set-aside wording is feasible, since by consistently playing a Barge every turn allows one to play an ever increasing number of Coppers each turn without them ever returning to your deck.  This is because the Copper is played each turn.  The original wording does not play the Copper again, and so a follow up Barge the next turn will not prevent the Copper from being cleaned up.

[SirPeebles]

As for keeping track, just go with the original wording, and if you have a fresh Barge out when you reach your buy phase, then put any newly played Copper in with the row of newly played Duration cards.  That is, you would keep track of the Copper the same way that you would a Throne Room.  There's a bit of an issue if you play Copper via Black Market before playing Barge, since you wouldn't know to keep that Copper separate from retained Copper.

[AJD]

I don't think AJD's set-aside wording is feasible, since by consistently playing a Barge every turn allows one to play an ever increasing number of Coppers each turn without them ever returning to your deck.

Good point! I didn't think of that. That does sound overpowered.

The original wording does not play the Copper again, and so a follow up Barge the next turn will not prevent the Copper from being cleaned up.

The original wording still needs something along the lines of "During your cleanup phase, do not discard Coppers you played this turn" in order to have the intended effect. The original wording on its own doesn't keep those Coppers in play.

[AJD]

As for keeping track, just go with the original wording, and if you have a fresh Barge out when you reach your buy phase, then put any newly played Copper in with the row of newly played Duration cards.  That is, you would keep track of the Copper the same way that you would a Throne Room.  There's a bit of an issue if you play Copper via Black Market before playing Barge, since you wouldn't know to keep that Copper separate from retained Copper.

The problem with tracking with the original wording is with Herbalist, Mint, Mandarin, and Counterfeit. If you play Barge, play five Coppers, buy Mint, trash the Coppers, then the next turn the Barge still gives you +$5 even though there's no Copper in play to remind you that $5 is what you get. It's even more bizarre if you play Barge, play five Coppers, buy Wharf, and then your opponent Swindles your Wharf into a Mandarin—those Coppers get top-decked, and you still get +$5.

[AJD]

By the way, I'd play-test this at $4 and $3, which both seem more plausible to me than a $5 cost for this card. Caravan costs less than Laboratory for a reason, after all. The default assumption should be that a duration Coppersmith ought to cost less than Coppersmith; but the fact that it can make your Coppers miss a reshuffle might be enough to bump it back up to $4.

[Khyad Halda]

Why not give the coppers the caravan wording?

Coppers played this turn gain "At the start of your next turn, +$1"

They would implicitly stay in play due to the added text, as with Throne Room.

[Kirian]

I don't think AJD's set-aside wording is feasible, since by consistently playing a Barge every turn allows one to play an ever increasing number of Coppers each turn without them ever returning to your deck.

Good point! I didn't think of that. That does sound overpowered.

The original wording does not play the Copper again, and so a follow up Barge the next turn will not prevent the Copper from being cleaned up.

The original wording still needs something along the lines of "During your cleanup phase, do not discard Coppers you played this turn" in order to have the intended effect. The original wording on its own doesn't keep those Coppers in play.

How about this wording:

"Reveal any number of Coppers from your hand and set them aside; +$1 for each Copper set aside.  At the start of your next turn: discard all set-aside Coppers; +$1 for each Copper discarded."

This gets rid of the Mint/Mandarin issues, and removes the overpowered continuous-hold Coppers problem, but doesn't somehow change the wording on the Coppers themselves, and uses methods of keeping track that already exist.