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[Jorbles]

I think ashersky pointed out that yuma was suspecting Eevee yesterday, but the way I remember it was yuma suspecting ashersky (and myself).

Also ashersky's accusation gives me way too much credit. I'm not some master scum player.

I do kinda get the feeling that ashersky is taking the shotgun blast approach to finding a mislynch here. At least it feels that way. Declaring all 5 players who aren't himself or IC to be prob!scum isn't helpful and just confuses things. @ash, If you are town this isn't a good way to go about doing things. If you're scum well keep it up I guess.

[Eevee]

I would really like for everyone to explain why they are a bad lynch actually. No "because I'm town"'s, but rational arguments explaining why your actions make more sense for town / why someone else's actions make more sense for scum.

My answer:
I was the second to join the Kooshie wagon liopoil created, my push had a significant impact on it happening. Sparky/archetype was my 2nd biggest suspect already day 1 and I never dropped that suspicion. I didn't participate in the town lynches (and additionally Jimmm, if I'm right about you I fought very hard to save you too).

I havent really done anything scummy in my opinion, if there is something I'd be glad to defend myself.

[raerae]

Ash's pasta tests, flip-flopping reads, and self-vote are absolutely infuriating.  For example, he finds Eevee's perfect voting suspicious and my 50% correct voting record scummy.  So, basically, if you voted this game, you are scummy.  Also interesting, sudgy is obviously IC, that is clear and was clear yesterday but Ash was the only one refusing to believe it.  Suddenly, he and sudgy are the only two clear townies left.  He was trying to cook something up with that yesterday and nobody was coming to dinner so he let it drop, same thing he's doing today.

His self-vote is just so frustrating if he's town but I don't think that's the case.  He pushed that hard in the beginning until we all believed he was just normal town ash and then let off.  Eevee pointed this out so now he's back at it.  I mean, scum wouldn't self-vote this late in the game, right?  That would just be suicide, right? 

So the yuma kill makes sense instead of a sudgy kill.  Yuma was the townleader, is a bit of bulldog, and suspected Ash.  Scum simply couldn't afford to leave that big of a threat alive this late in the game. 

[raerae]

In response to Eevee:

I have not played a great game.  Fully admit that and my only excuse is my real life has been real busy and I haven't been able to devote as much time as I should have to this game.  I helped kill Kooshie and Arch.  Regarding Arch, however, I don't think a lot of towncred can be gained by anybody not previously suspecting Arch on that lynch since the slip was less of a slip and more of a spill.  I stuck my neck out for Jimmmmm D2 and still hold to that read.  Yuma roleblocked me and there was still a kill.  I know that doesn't and shouldn't absolve me of suspicion but I still think it hold some water. 

[Eevee]

Thank you raerae. Btw, isn't it sort of interesting people who suspected Jimm have been killed off and it's just his heaviest (?) supporters left?

[sudgy]

Alright, I'm going to say this now, I wasn't saying it yet because I thought it would make scum want to NK me (but I think nothing else can make me much more NK-able than I am now).  I have access to the Jailed (lynched) Players QT.  I've been trying to send them messages (saying things they said (and then lekkit just said that I read his mind...)), but they haven't seen anything.  Now, the most interesting thing that I've seen in there is that Archetype said that the bus was amazing.  Now, he's scum, so he might be trying to make us look on wagon, so I'll look off wagon (after he said that I was even more suspicious of yuma but then suddenly yuma died).

Off wagon (excluding town): ash, Insom, Jorbles

Jorbles: I haven't noticed him much this game.  Either is scum blending in really well, or just a townie, which I'm leaning towards.

Insom: I've had a scumread on him for almost the whole game (for his scummy lurking (I have two different classifications of lurking, one is scummy the other isn't)).

Ash: I know I would never play like that.  Now, of course, I'm not him, but I think he's trying to be so crazy that we think he can't possibly be scum.  Also, there is his tunneling of Jorbles.

I think the scummiest of the three is Vote: ashersky.

[raerae]

Thank you raerae. Btw, isn't it sort of interesting people who suspected Jimm have been killed off and it's just his heaviest (?) supporters left?

Makes me a bit uncomfortable to be honest...

[Jorbles]

Answering Eevee's post, sorry about the novel:

Okay first off, why am I a bad lynch? I was early on the Kooshie wagon, not perhaps as early as Eevee, but only a few posts after him if I recall correctly. I don't think this should really absolve me, I wasn't pursuing it that hard, I just thought it was a better case than anything else that had been presented that day.

Day 2 I was a little all over the place, but who wasn't that day was so long. I divided my suspicions between Jimmmm, Insomniac and sudgy. I defended sparky, yuma and Ozle. I admit defending sparky looks bad, but I still think sparky's d1 play looked towny, even though I've been proved wrong. I expressed willingness to lynch him or Lekkit for lurkiness until they both started being (more) active.

Day 3 I wanted to lynch Archetype most of the day. Though I also suspected yuma and Jimmm. My votes make it pretty clear I was trying to lynch Archetype. I still don't think Jimmmm is cleared btw. ashersky's tunneling on me really starts this day. His case is basically that I seem towny to him so therefore I must be scum. This case is getting more and more annoying because everything I do looks scummy to him. If I do something towny he thinks it's me just doing it to score townpoints and therefore it's scummy, if I do something scummy it's me making a mistake and just scummy. Nothing I can do will make him read me anything but scummy. Anyhow eventually I get frustrated that no one seems to want to lynch Archetype and go with the consensus vote, Lekkit. I thought Lekkit was just lurky in general and so wasn't a terrible lynch we were wrong, but I didn't want the day to drag on like d2 had.

Day 4 I am still suspecting Archetype and yuma. I've started looking harder at yuma, but then Archetype makes his slip and we all want to vote for him. I don't think we can learn much from day 4 since we were all clearly ready to vote for Archetype.

Okay so why am I bad lynch? If you think I was busing then I guess I'm a good lynch, but that would mean I was busing two of my team mates one of them for multiple days. That's a lot of working against my team mates if you think I'm scum. I might bus sometimes as scum, but this isn't the case here.

Who's a good lynch?
Not eevee who I think is probably the towniest non-IC. I should probably look more closely at him since I have this read on him, but I can't remember why. Will do that next.
ashersky's erratic play is looking more and more like an affectation to make people think he's just playing too weirdly to be scum. He's been tunneling on me a lot of the game, which seems totally weird to me and just adds to this. I've had a horrible time reading him this game, but that might be because he's trying to make himself really hard to read deliberately. So he'd be one of my top choices to lynch. The only problem I have with this is if he's scum then who fits as a possible partner for him? Something we need to look into no matter who we lynch.
Insomniac could be lurking as scum, but he has read as genuinely frustrated in the game. I think he's probably town. He wouldn't be my first choice to lynch anyways.
raerae has been V/LA for much of the game which makes her hard for me to read. Her voting patterns don't look as scummy to me as some other players. She wouldn't be my first choice, but is a possible scum player.
Jimmmm still feels scummy to me, but this could be residual from previously suspecting him. His voting has been scummy in a way similar to Archetypes. I could see him as scum.

[Jorbles]

Thank you raerae. Btw, isn't it sort of interesting people who suspected Jimm have been killed off and it's just his heaviest (?) supporters left?

Makes me a bit uncomfortable to be honest...

I've suspected Jimmmm on and off most of the game. I still suspect him, and which Jimmmm detractors have been killed off and when?

[Eevee]

Well, most of the people were suspecting Jimm at one point or another, as he was VERY close to being lynched. This game is so darn large, going to back to check the facts is a very daunting task. That's actually why I asked for these "cases on ourselves", just helps the other players to remember. I think Jorbles "defended" himself well.

Can someone explain why Insomniac's play feels towny? I dont think it's actively scummy, but have trouble comprehending what makes it seem towny, especially considering we are in a situation where noreads are pretty damn scummy due to poe.

My top suspects now are ashersky, Insomniac and raerae.

[Jorbles]

@sudgy: What are the dead players saying now that they know you can hear them? Are there any inconsistencies they've noticed?

[sudgy]

@Eevee: You shouldn't lynch me because I'm town

@Jorbles: Lekkit actually gave me a bit of the case on ashersky, and mail-mi agrees.  Lekkit isn't surprised that I can hear them.  The only inconsistencies that they noticed was Kooshie noticing the inconsistency in the food...

[sudgy]

Also, @Lekkit: I didn't say hi to everyone because the thread was locked at that time.  I was thinking of instead saying that people who have access to the QTs shouldn't claim it.

[ashersky]

The only scenario that makes any sense at the moment is that you're trying too hard to be Towny, self-sacrificial ashersky. This is not the situation for a Townie to be falling on his sword. And saying "Ask Eevee" is a ludicrous defense. If Eevee is Town, then suggesting lynching you is something that he believes has a relatively good chance of helping Town. If you're Town, then suggesting lynching yourself is something that you know will be bad for Town. So unless you can give a very good reason why it would be good for Town, you seem to be trying too hard.

Again, if you say so.  You are wrong, and you've seen others be wrong about me in the same ways as a fellow player and a mod.  Think about it.

Also, reading your bolded sentence, you seem to be concurring with the idea that lynching town today is a good idea.  So you are being extremely hypocritical to call me out for it when you yourself say "suggesting lynching you is something that he believes has a relative good chance of helping Town" instead of "...he believes has a relatively good chance of hitting scum."

Would you like me to try less hard to help town?  That's backwards to me.

[ashersky]

Also ashersky's accusation gives me way too much credit. I'm not some master scum player.

False.  Patently false.  The only reason you (we) lost LOLCats was the Bastard nature of the game.

[ashersky]

I mean, scum wouldn't self-vote this late in the game, right?  That would just be suicide, right? 

If I'm scum, who is my remaining partner?  And wouldn't he/she be furious with me?

[Eevee]

I dont see much downside for scum to self-vote here. I mean town should be really freaking worried they'll die, much harder for scum to get quicklynched.

Ashersky, I think you dodged Jimm's question. You are willing to die for this town, we get it. However, everything anyone else does is scummy to you, what information would we get from your flip?

Can anyone think of any scum pairs other than sudgy-X we can eliminate due to earlier days?

[ashersky]

I dont see much downside for scum to self-vote here. I mean town should be really freaking worried they'll die, much harder for scum to get quicklynched.

Ashersky, I think you dodged Jimm's question. You are willing to die for this town, we get it. However, everything anyone else does is scummy to you, what information would we get from your flip?

Can anyone think of any scum pairs other than sudgy-X we can eliminate due to earlier days?

You say this, and yet for two straight days you have called me scummy for not offering myself up to be lynched.  Which is it?

Well, unless I'm faking a fight with all of you, ashersky-X doesn't work.

Why does my flip help?  When you know I'm town, it'll change your reads on everyone else.  Like, if you think X, Y, and ash are scummy, now you are at a 50% chance with your reads.  You can also see my interactions with people for what they are--honest, pro-town attempts to win this game.

It's not like I'm dead set on lynching myself.  I'm just being absolutely clear that I will if that's what the town demands as the price for proving my innocence.

[Eevee]

I still dont see any concrete information we would get from your flip. None! I would be able to deduct you from my suspect pool, but that holds true for any other lynch.

I have hard time believing you could actually want to be the lynch as town, so your self-vote reads insincere to me. Scum is insincere. I don't claim to KNOW you are scum, I was pretty darn sure in helsinki mafia and you were town. I dont think your actions today are helping us find the real scum if you are town, though.

[ashersky]

I still dont see any concrete information we would get from your flip. None! I would be able to deduct you from my suspect pool, but that holds true for any other lynch.

I have hard time believing you could actually want to be the lynch as town, so your self-vote reads insincere to me. Scum is insincere. I don't claim to KNOW you are scum, I was pretty darn sure in helsinki mafia and you were town. I dont think your actions today are helping us find the real scum if you are town, though.

Lurkers aren't helping (Insom?).  I'd lean toward lynching there.

I think scum may have killed yuma to leave only one clear mislynch to work toward today (me).

Separately, I really don't think we should be going for the information lynch today.  It's too late in the game for that.  We really should be trying to lynch mafia.  Lynching me for information is not optimal.

[Jorbles]

I still dont see any concrete information we would get from your flip. None! I would be able to deduct you from my suspect pool, but that holds true for any other lynch.

I have hard time believing you could actually want to be the lynch as town, so your self-vote reads insincere to me. Scum is insincere. I don't claim to KNOW you are scum, I was pretty darn sure in helsinki mafia and you were town. I dont think your actions today are helping us find the real scum if you are town, though.

What information could we get from lynching anyone at this point? The only info I can think we could get from lynching anyone would be if we lynched Jimmmm because if he was scum we could see who didn't hammer him when he was at L-1 before. That's not enough info for me to lynch someone. I can't think of any other concrete info we'd get from a lynch that favours lynching one player over another.

[Eevee]

Jorbles, I know. And still ashersky is voting for himself..

[Eevee]

It is sad how little we have to go on in terms of interactions here. Makes this very hard.

[ashersky]

Jorbles, I know. And still ashersky is voting for himself..

Should I unvote?

[Eevee]

Jorbles, I know. And still ashersky is voting for himself..

Should I unvote?

You should let me dictate where your vote lies for the rest of the game. I still encourage you to make contributions and scumhunt as hard as possible, just leave the actual deciding to me.