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[Lekkit]

Archetype, I don't think I ever voted for Jimm, and I would never have done it to speed up his lynch. I just said that I wouldn't fight it that much and could probably be swqued to vote for him if there were no other possible lynch. You and Jimm both seem to think I was voting early for a town-read. That's not what I did.

[Jimmmmm]

You and Jimm both seem to think I was voting early for a town-read. That's not what I did.

Uh, no I never said that.

[Lekkit]

I know, but I get the feeling like I might as well had, in your eyes.

[yuma]

He's also been leading the Town. A lot. I've played one game when he was scum, and have watched one with him as scum. And he is amazing at playing scum, especially when he's in that driver's seat position. This is more of just personal paranoia than actual evidence, but I just don't want this to be a repeat of M&Ms.

Ok... I am going to say this again, mostly because it is the only defense I have...

You call my play as scum, "amazing." I thank you for the compliment. But I ask you to actually look at my behavior this game and see if it fits the category of "amazing scum play." Because I think if I am playing as scum, the last thing I want to do is completely ignore my partner when their wagon gets to 4 votes. At that point "amazing play" is to either defend really hard, a la M&M, which you reference, or buss and make sure I am either on or contributing to that wagon. But, I didn't.

Now some will say, as I have mentioned before, "Well you were just planning on playing bad so that when you got in this situation you could argue that point! WIFOM!" And as I mentioned before, that is crazy talk. Because scum doesn't do stupid things to later go back and pull out that card. They just don't. Why? Because it is wayyyyy too risky! All it takes is one person noticing it and boom! You are some deep trouble with town. And scum--at least this guy when he is playing scum--doesn't like to do wildly risky and stupid things.

Furthermore, if I was scum, I would not have forgotten my town reads on mail-mi. I would have stuck to my guns and continued to vote Jimmm or mcmc all day2 long. But I didn't. I admit that this point is more debatable as people can argue once again, that I could have planned to play that way and hope that people would find me townier for it, but like I said, that style of play is practically suicide for scum.  Jumping all over the town isn't how I play scum. Again see M&M where I gunned for Qvist and mcmc all game long and tried to force those lynches through.

What is the takeaway... every game that yuma has played as scum as a veteran (I am not counting MIII, MV, where I learned a lot of lessons from bad scum play) he has either 1. defended his scum buddies ridiculously or 2. bussed his scum buddies (or been bussed by his scum buddy). Scum!yuma doesn't just sit by and watch his partner go down. Nor does he go bonkers all over the place voting. He maintains a consistent, constant pressure on a few individuals and sticks to that until it happens.

[yuma]

One more point I want to make:

Quote from: ashersky on March 29, 2013, 05:00:19 pm

FoS: Yuma

He's too good to trust, was off-wagon, and has been pushing an off-wagon lynch in a pro-town way.  He's successfully deflected any attention away from him by driving the convo.  See MnM for textbook Yuma scum.

I don't think you can FoS yuma for playing in a pro town way. So unfair. Yeah, he is one of the very few guys who are capable of playing this type of a game as scum, but still. Playing in a (seemingly) pro-town way and well simply CAN NOT make him more scummy!! Unless you claim he (seemingly) plays town better as scum?

The above is a quote from eevee that--sorry I pulled from the print screen, hence the funky quoting format--applied here. I know it is a slightly different situation, but I think the premise of what eevee is saying here still applies.

Here ash was voting for me because I am "too good to trust" and because I was "being pro-town."

And eevee comes in and says that voting for me for being "pro-town" is unfair. Basically saying that just because I am good at being scum doesn't mean I am being scum in this game.

I realize that no one is voting me just because of this. But I have seen a lot of people basically say, "I have been tricked by him before and I don't want to be again."

I would urge you to put that idea out of your mind, because it isn't something that is concrete or evidence, it is just yourself playing mind games with yourself. And focus more on the actual evidence. If you think the actual evidence points in my direction, then, sure vote for me. I will understand, you will be wrong, but I will understand. But don't vote for me just because you want to make sure you aren't being tricked by me.

[Eevee]

I realize that no one is voting me just because of this. But I have seen a lot of people basically say, "I have been tricked by him before and I don't want to be again."

I definitely think like this though. Your defense is starting to make sense, I feel an urge to unvote. But, scum yuma has done it so many times before - fooled me completely. So, you delivering a believable defense for your scummy actions IS different than someone else doing it. We have evidence of you being crafty, slick and winning games as scum because of it. Of course we are worried you are pulling one over on us again.

[Insomniac]

@Yuma I'm going to make a big post a bit later today but it's hard to feel like its worth the investment if when I post no one even acknowledges the post which is what I was getting at.

When I made my last post, it was like I never even made the post because STILL no one has remarked on it but you, and that was to say your saying things we already said before. Well thats nice and I read what you said before, that doesn't mean I don't want to have a discussion with it now because I clearly do.

The post I will make later will be some voting analysis, something that we aren't doing for some reason and are still stuck on the day 1 wagon for even though we have another wagon we could look at.

[yuma]

looking forward to see what you have to say

[Jorbles]

I realize that no one is voting me just because of this. But I have seen a lot of people basically say, "I have been tricked by him before and I don't want to be again."

I definitely think like this though. Your defense is starting to make sense, I feel an urge to unvote. But, scum yuma has done it so many times before - fooled me completely. So, you delivering a believable defense for your scummy actions IS different than someone else doing it. We have evidence of you being crafty, slick and winning games as scum because of it. Of course we are worried you are pulling one over on us again.

I feel like we're getting a bit past the actual reasons for voting for yuma, which are that his voting history is scummy. At least for me, it doesn't have to do with this meta argument about being tricked or not tricked, or at least not mostly. yuma's voting (and lack of voting) makes him one of the scummier players in the game in my eyes.

[yuma]

I realize that no one is voting me just because of this. But I have seen a lot of people basically say, "I have been tricked by him before and I don't want to be again."

I definitely think like this though. Your defense is starting to make sense, I feel an urge to unvote. But, scum yuma has done it so many times before - fooled me completely. So, you delivering a believable defense for your scummy actions IS different than someone else doing it. We have evidence of you being crafty, slick and winning games as scum because of it. Of course we are worried you are pulling one over on us again.

I feel like we're getting a bit past the actual reasons for voting for yuma, which are that his voting history is scummy. At least for me, it doesn't have to do with this meta argument about being tricked or not tricked, or at least not mostly. yuma's voting (and lack of voting) makes him one of the scummier players in the game in my eyes.

I acknowledge that and have in previously and do not dispute your reasons for voting me, but what I am saying is that of the three other players that fit into the same bill as me (Arch, Jimm, Ozle), I am the one being voted because in addition to the things you say above, people are worried that I am being super sneaky. And I think that is a problem, because it means they are putting their feelings and worries over actually finding out who among us is more likely to be scum. I continue to maintain that the most likely and the more logical is Archetype.

[Robz888]

Vote Count 3.5

Archetype (1) -- yuma
Lekkit (3) -- Archetype, sudgy, raerae
Ozle (1) -- ashersky
yuma (3) -- Eevee, Lekkit, Jorbles

Not Voting (4) -- Ozle, mcmcsalot, Jimm, Insomniac

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. There are 18 days remaining. Deadline is May 6 at 7:00 PM.

[yuma]

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is May 6 at 7:00 PM.[/b]

So the day started April 11 at ~ 2 forum time. I would suggest a soft deadline for one week later, April 18 at the same time (2 pm forum time). I don't think we want to take the time to go into the next weekend.

Could we push it back to the 19th? I will be v/la the 17th and 18th with zero access.

I suppose we could do that. But if we do Friday we need the deadline to be morning or mid-morning forum time... The earlier the better Friday as Friday nights forum time are dead around here lately.

I know I am not an IC, but I feel like I am the only one interested in making sure we meet our soft deadline. Which is April 19 at 2 pm forum time.

[sudgy]

Sorry guys, been relatively busy.

Anyway, my scummy-ish reads are Lekkit, yuma, and Archetype.  Raerae, for lurking, is in between scummy-ish and null.  Can't think of anybody I have a big town read on.

[ashersky]

So help me lynch Ozle.  He's in "Barcelona," which is clearly some made up fairy tale land to cover his scummy lurking.

[sudgy]

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is May 6 at 7:00 PM.[/b]

So the day started April 11 at ~ 2 forum time. I would suggest a soft deadline for one week later, April 18 at the same time (2 pm forum time). I don't think we want to take the time to go into the next weekend.

Could we push it back to the 19th? I will be v/la the 17th and 18th with zero access.

I suppose we could do that. But if we do Friday we need the deadline to be morning or mid-morning forum time... The earlier the better Friday as Friday nights forum time are dead around here lately.

I know I am not an IC, but I feel like I am the only one interested in making sure we meet our soft deadline. Which is April 19 at 2 pm forum time.

I'll decide my final vote after Insomniac's post.

[Insomniac]

Alright so let's have a look see at the two wagons that resulted in a lynch. Color coding some things for clarity (Green are conf town, red are conf scum)

Kooshie - liopoil, Eevee, Jorbles, sudgy, Lekkit, mail-mi, ashersky, raerae, xeiron
Off wagon - mcmcsalot, yuma, jimmmm, Insomniac, Ozle, sparky (Archetype)

mail-mi -  Jimm, liopoil, Lekkit, Archetype, raerae, yuma, Ozle, mail-mi


Let's have a look at some relevant intersections then shall we. Listing only still alive players
Off Kooshie, On Mail-mi - yuma, Jimm, Ozle, Archetype

ON Kooshie, ON Mail-mi - Lekkit, raerae

ON KOOSHIE, OFF MAIL-MI - Eevee, Jorbles, sudgy, ashersky

On Neither - mcmsalot, Insomniac

This is a listing of all 12 still alive players. 3 of which are scum.

Now for the rest of this post I will use OFF,ON notation to denote whether you were on the kooshie wagon and on the mail-mi wagon respectively

OFF-ON is the most OBVIOUSLY scummy place to be. Now we've seen yuma here before but really I mean huge town vibe this game for me. I suspect probably 1 of the remaining 3 is in this pair.

ON-ON - Now we're looking at something. If I had a scum team of 4 in a 16 person game, I would BUS THE CRAP outta that person day 1. I actually think THIS is one of the scummiest places to be the other one being.

ON-OFF -This might look towniest, but i think its tied for scummiest, ON-OFF implies knowledge about peoples roles, knowledge that scum have, sure some townies probably ended up in here by dumb luck but man this is where I want to look (Bus for town cred, dissassociate for town cred)

OFF-OFF - Well I'm town, im not opposed to lynching mcmc, but eh, I don't think its particularily scummy to be here.


So to answer the pops quiz
Scummiest to least scummy
sudgy > Eevee/Jorbles/ashersky > Lekkit/raerae > Jimm/Ozle/Archetype > mcmcsalot/yuma >>>>> Insomniac

I can't vote for sudgy. You can bet on me placing a Vote: ashersky though. (I could be convinced to vote for anyone today other than mcmcsalot yuma, but prefer, Eevee/Jorbles/Ash/Sudgy)

[yuma]

Thanks, Insomniac.

Really fresh, different way of looking at the state of things. I am going to look at this a bit more closely and think about it over dinner and will get back to you with my thoughts. I suggest everyone do so as well.

[yuma]

I will ask what separates ash from eevee/jorbles?

[Insomniac]

I will ask what separates ash from eevee/jorbles?

Ash is seperated from Eevee/Jorbles in that I had a scummy read on ash from his day 1 Eevee Tell, Scum Tell, town Tell, etc attitude. The other 2 are fairly scummy to though, just ash had done something I actually thought was scummy as opposed to being lurky undercontributers (like myself)

[ashersky]

I will ask what separates ash from eevee/jorbles?

Ash is seperated from Eevee/Jorbles in that I had a scummy read on ash from his day 1 Eevee Tell, Scum Tell, town Tell, etc attitude. The other 2 are fairly scummy to though, just ash had done something I actually thought was scummy as opposed to being lurky undercontributers (like myself)

Thanks for noticing I was around.  You know, how you weren't?

[Insomniac]

I will ask what separates ash from eevee/jorbles?

Ash is seperated from Eevee/Jorbles in that I had a scummy read on ash from his day 1 Eevee Tell, Scum Tell, town Tell, etc attitude. The other 2 are fairly scummy to though, just ash had done something I actually thought was scummy as opposed to being lurky undercontributers (like myself)

Thanks for noticing I was around.  You know, how you weren't?

How is this helpful at all? Notice how I have provided analysis, most people would try to refute it instead of taking a shot at the person who provided it. Unless of course they are a politician.

[ashersky]

Alright so let's have a look see at the two wagons that resulted in a lynch. Color coding some things for clarity (Green are conf town, red are conf scum)

Kooshie - liopoil, Eevee, Jorbles, sudgy, Lekkit, mail-mi, ashersky, raerae, xeiron
Off wagon - mcmcsalot, yuma, jimmmm, Insomniac, Ozle, sparky (Archetype)

mail-mi -  Jimm, liopoil, Lekkit, Archetype, raerae, yuma, Ozle, mail-mi


Let's have a look at some relevant intersections then shall we. Listing only still alive players
Off Kooshie, On Mail-mi - yuma, Jimm, Ozle, Archetype

ON Kooshie, ON Mail-mi - Lekkit, raerae

ON KOOSHIE, OFF MAIL-MI - Eevee, Jorbles, sudgy, ashersky

On Neither - mcmsalot, Insomniac

This is a listing of all 12 still alive players. 3 of which are scum.

Now for the rest of this post I will use OFF,ON notation to denote whether you were on the kooshie wagon and on the mail-mi wagon respectively

OFF-ON is the most OBVIOUSLY scummy place to be. Now we've seen yuma here before but really I mean huge town vibe this game for me. I suspect probably 1 of the remaining 3 is in this pair.

ON-ON - Now we're looking at something. If I had a scum team of 4 in a 16 person game, I would BUS THE CRAP outta that person day 1. I actually think THIS is one of the scummiest places to be the other one being.

ON-OFF -This might look towniest, but i think its tied for scummiest, ON-OFF implies knowledge about peoples roles, knowledge that scum have, sure some townies probably ended up in here by dumb luck but man this is where I want to look (Bus for town cred, dissassociate for town cred)

OFF-OFF - Well I'm town, im not opposed to lynching mcmc, but eh, I don't think its particularily scummy to be here.


So to answer the pops quiz
Scummiest to least scummy
sudgy > Eevee/Jorbles/ashersky > Lekkit/raerae > Jimm/Ozle/Archetype > mcmcsalot/yuma >>>>> Insomniac

I can't vote for sudgy. You can bet on me placing a Vote: ashersky though. (I could be convinced to vote for anyone today other than mcmcsalot yuma, but prefer, Eevee/Jorbles/Ash/Sudgy)

I find most of this very useful, and flawed.

I like the on/off notation, so I think we should stick with that, but for ease of reading, I'll use N/F, F/N, N/N, and F/F (N = on, F = off).

I think F/N is the most obviously scummy, as mentioned.  I think any "newbie" scum will fall into this category.  I think any "veteran" scum will know that this is the scummy pairing, and therefore would avoid it like the plague if possible.  The caveat here is if the veteran scum is also lurking--they may not have been able to get on/off wagon like they wanted to.

I think F/F is null, and more bad town play than scummy play.  F/F means you aren't using your vote (your only weapon as town) and you aren't around enough to know what's happening.

N/F and N/N are the most interesting places to look, in my opinion.  The question to ask is, what's the likely composition of the remaining three scum members?  We had a newbie scum lynched D1 and a newbie mistake NK on N1.  I'd argue that we've looking for at least 50% newbie scum team.  So F/N.  The veteran leader of that scum team, though, is probably in N/F or N/N.  I think veteran scum was on Kooshie early, and did NOT join the town wagon on D2.

So Insom and I agree that N/N is a place to look, but disagree on the relative scumminess of N/F and F/F.

[ashersky]

I will ask what separates ash from eevee/jorbles?

Ash is seperated from Eevee/Jorbles in that I had a scummy read on ash from his day 1 Eevee Tell, Scum Tell, town Tell, etc attitude. The other 2 are fairly scummy to though, just ash had done something I actually thought was scummy as opposed to being lurky undercontributers (like myself)

Thanks for noticing I was around.  You know, how you weren't?

How is this helpful at all? Notice how I have provided analysis, most people would try to refute it instead of taking a shot at the person who provided it. Unless of course they are a politician.

See my next post, which includes analysis.  Way to jump the gun to make me look scummy.

[ashersky]

Further on Insom's analysis:

I think the mcmc/Insom pair has some merit in investigating.  Both are vet scum, but have different reasons for not being on either wagon.  Insom wasn't around for Kooshie; mcmc vehemently defended Kooshie.  Insom wasn't around for mail-mi; not sure why mcmc didn't vote for mail-mi.

I can see scum!Insom choosing to lurk his way through.  But I can see town!Insom just not caring because he's a VT in a mafia game he doesn't really want to be in anyway.  So I don't think Insom is more likely to be scum than town, so I don't think he's a good lynch.

I can see scum!mcmc deciding to play the "crazy defend a partner on D1" gambit, so scum points for D1.  I don't have a good read on mcmc's D2, but I can see him arguing the "look, I wasn't on the town wagon" card for more town points. 

Of the pair, mcmc is the better lynch, and more likely to be scum, I say.

[ashersky]

Off Kooshie, On Mail-mi - yuma, Jimm, Ozle, Archetype

Common sense tells us we NEED to lynch from this group.  Ozle is scum, but the yuma lynch would be mighty informative.  I'd rather lynch scum.