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[Jimmmmm]

Also, Jimm, if you don't mind me asking. Which night was the TM bought?

No idea. All I know is that it was gone when I arrived ini the room.

[ashersky]

Well, we could possibly catch liars, since there's bound to be overlap in where we've all been.  No one refuted any of Jimmmmm's map-claim, for example.  Had anything he said been a lie, and one of us had been in that room, we could have confirmed it as such.

We know scum already knows the entire layout.  We know that a power exists for others to learn the layout.  It's the 3rd day at this point, so we've all possibly explored a fair amount.  I don't think the negatives (giving too much info to scum) are there.

Claiming what was available in each room is probably more dangerous, but claiming what we know about what the map looks like could be helpful.

Ok, so reading this post again (and I want to make sure everyone does now) I find two things very odd.  Let's break it down.

We know scum already knows the entire layout.  We know that a power exists for others to learn the layout.  It's the 3rd day at this point, so we've all possibly explored a fair amount.  I don't think the negatives (giving too much info to scum) are there.

This is the key to my first point. I don't think there was a consesus as to if it was scum that bought the Treasure Map. The PMs in the opening post mentions that scum share map vision. Nowhere does it say that they automatically gain the whole layout. So no. We don't all know that scum already knows the entire layout.

But let's assume that they do, or that they at least have explored a fair amount of the bank. Let's move to my second point.

Well, we could possibly catch liars, since there's bound to be overlap in where we've all been.  No one refuted any of Jimmmmm's map-claim, for example.  Had anything he said been a lie, and one of us had been in that room, we could have confirmed it as such.

If scum know the whole layout of the bank, why lie? The only thing we would get out of it is confused townies or townies trying to not give away their hand, but being pressed to do so. To claim in order to find liars is in the scenario you point out a VERY ANTI TOWN thing to do.

As I said this doesn't make any sense to me at all. Saying we could catch liars while no scum would lie just sounds ridiculous to me. Also, I'm still not convinced that it was scum who bought the TM.

Had you, you know, been around all game instead of lurking through it, you would have seen the multiple times its been mentioned that scum has more info and can see the map.  We also know that the TM exists so town may have the same info now.  We also know there have been multiples of cards in the bank.

[yuma]

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is May 6 at 7:00 PM.[/b]

So the day started April 11 at ~ 2 forum time. I would suggest a soft deadline for one week later, April 18 at the same time (2 pm forum time). I don't think we want to take the time to go into the next weekend.

Could we push it back to the 19th? I will be v/la the 17th and 18th with zero access.

I suppose we could do that. But if we do Friday we need the deadline to be morning or mid-morning forum time... The earlier the better Friday as Friday nights forum time are dead around here lately.

[raerae]

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is May 6 at 7:00 PM.[/b]

So the day started April 11 at ~ 2 forum time. I would suggest a soft deadline for one week later, April 18 at the same time (2 pm forum time). I don't think we want to take the time to go into the next weekend.

Could we push it back to the 19th? I will be v/la the 17th and 18th with zero access.

I suppose we could do that. But if we do Friday we need the deadline to be morning or mid-morning forum time... The earlier the better Friday as Friday nights forum time are dead around here lately.

I totally understand and support that and certainly don't expect the game to not go forward because of me but still wanted to ask. If everybody else is in favor of the 18th, I will just have to cast my final vote on the 16th and go from there.

Also, trying to reread mcmc, he seems weird.

[ashersky]

I think it is weird town!mcmc though.  That idea he floated about knowing then not then deciding the tell and not tell...too much confusion to be a scum gambit.

[Lekkit]

Had you, you know, been around all game instead of lurking through it, you would have seen the multiple times its been mentioned that scum has more info and can see the map.  We also know that the TM exists so town may have the same info now.  We also know there have been multiples of cards in the bank.

Show me proof that they do. All I can find is that they share map vision. Nothing about them knowing the whole map. And even if they do, why do you think they would lie about the layout of the bank?

[ashersky]

Had you, you know, been around all game instead of lurking through it, you would have seen the multiple times its been mentioned that scum has more info and can see the map.  We also know that the TM exists so town may have the same info now.  We also know there have been multiples of cards in the bank.

Show me proof that they do. All I can find is that they share map vision. Nothing about them knowing the whole map. And even if they do, why do you think they would lie about the layout of the bank?

Only scum could prove it, clearly.  The assumption we've all had all game is that they can.  I think it was originally posited by mail-mi.

I don't know why they would lie.  Maybe there is something they want to keep town from knowing?

[Lekkit]

And assuming something is the same as knowing? You still seem unsure about why they would lie. I think it's more likely that a townie would lie than scum. And yet that was your reason for why we should map claim.

[ashersky]

And assuming something is the same as knowing? You still seem unsure about why they would lie. I think it's more likely that a townie would lie than scum. And yet that was your reason for why we should map claim.

The reason I suggest X claiming in every game I play is because it is always bad for scum.  They have to lie, or risk being caught as scum.

[mcmcsalot]

I really don't think map claiming will catch scum there is no reason for them to lie, and they could just give a minimal portion of the map. Also that mail-mi lynch was terrible, I supported only because he said he would self vote which is unacceptable. I still don't understand why we didn't lynch jimm/insom/ozzle. All better lynches in my opinion.

[Eevee]

Vote: mcmc

[Eevee]

Also that mail-mi lynch was terrible, I supported only because he said he would self vote which is unacceptable.

For this gem.

[Jimmmmm]

Hmm yeah, doesn't seem to be saying that it's a terrible lynch here:

Ugh, I really don't know about a mail-mi lynch, but I guess the way he's not fighting against it reads scummy to me, he relatively new and knows we have a tendency to attack people tha are overly defensive. So I think he is purposefully playing cool as he thinks that will save him. I think scum mail-mi thinks of this plan. So I could possibly vote for him if the deadline approaches

Oh the Jimm wagon is gone, okay ill reread mail-mi when I get on my computer later today, and of course ill announce intent before doing anything.

(bolding mine)

Now the bolded part could just be a general comment about mail-mi's playstyle, but to me it reads like mcmc is saying "I think he's scum". So, distancing himself from a lynch and then trying to do the "Towny" thing of giving intent, and then following that the next day with calling it terrible ("that mail-mi lynch", as if he had nothing to do with it).

And of course this happened before mail-mi said he would self-vote, and it certainly looks like pre-empting support.

[yuma]

Also that mail-mi lynch was terrible, I supported only because he said he would self vote which is unacceptable.

For this gem.

I see your point, but I have something of the same feeling that mcmc is expressing and said as such a day or so ago.

I do regret moving onto the mail-mi wagon. Looking back that should be obvious, but at the time I should have known better. Did know better in fact but was so frustrated by the lack of movement and the stalling everytime we got close to someone off wagon.

It was a bad lynch. We know that certainly now because he flipped town. But it was also a bad lynch from the start and we need to hold those--including myself and mcmc--who were participants accountable for it. But just because someone says it was a bad lynch retroactively doesn't make them scum. I am interested in doing more of what Jimmm did above in analyzing how people joined the mcmc wagon and will probably be something that I do later this weekend. If someone else wants to do it before, they are welcome to, however.

[mcmcsalot]

Guys I don't know what to say, I pushed the jim and insom lynch so hard I burned myself out, go back and check. After those lynches dissipated my participation dropped dramatically. The quote was me saying while I don't think mail-mi is scum the way he is reacting to the wagon on him reads very scummy to me. Now add the fact that he self hammered and he was playing crazy scummy toward the end.

[Jimmmmm]

If you're Town mcmc, I think I can relate to what you're feeling. In DS9 I got burned out a bit on big cases on Eevee and shraeye, and they both turned out Town, and you actually, and for a while I thought you were Town as well, and I just didn't really know which way to go after that. On the other hand, this is a bit different in that if you actually think one of us is scum you can keep arguing for it and providing evidence.
Also, your thoughts on mail-mi sound like how I felt about the Cuzz lynch in DS9. For ages I thought he was Town, and then he started acting really scummy in my opinion, and I was really torn. But then, I didn't think he was such a bad lynch in the end, just one which I disagreed with.

[Ozle]

Hi guys, sorry ive not been around mch, not posting much due to illness, but i am reading.

I think these are the topics that need commenting on:

Sudgy not a good lynch obviously.
The Oracle should not claim unless claiming actually stops a lynch they know is wrong (so if they got two townies they should stay silent unless those people are being lynched.) or if they found scum, wait to watch intections.
It should be noted though that just buying the Oracle should NOT be given townie points, scum would be just as likely to buy it to keep it out of our hands.

For those people that joined the Mail-mi wagon because they felt it was the only viable lynch.....now you know how i felt day1 (and got so much heat for it)

Mcmc, yeah im leaning that scum way on him a bit, but not massively.

Happy with the soft deadline!

Think hats covered everything, as i said, will still be reading just not posting as much on forums in general tilli feel better.

[Ozle]

Had you, you know, been around all game instead of lurking through it, you would have seen the multiple times its been mentioned that scum has more info and can see the map.  We also know that the TM exists so town may have the same info now.  We also know there have been multiples of cards in the bank.

Show me proof that they do. All I can find is that they share map vision. Nothing about them knowing the whole map. And even if they do, why do you think they would lie about the layout of the bank?

Only scum could prove it, clearly.  The assumption we've all had all game is that they can.  I think it was originally posited by mail-mi.

I don't know why they would lie.  Maybe there is something they want to keep town from knowing?

I agree with ash that scum clearly have more info on the map, for a start there was 4 of them moving around and comparing notes, thats bound to give them a massive picture, plus there was jimmm and mail-mi's map claims that added to hat knowledge. If scum do not have a pretty good layout of all the bank id be surprised!

Although im not sure they would lie much, there are very few lies they could actually get away with, because no matter what they have seen, town will probably have seen it as well (except i know there is at least one area town can't go, because i tried and got told i couldnt)

[yuma]

(except i know there is at least one area town can't go, because i tried and got told i couldnt)

please explain this further. and I can't believe I am saying this... but please be a little more specific if you would. Especially regarding the "tried" part of your sentence.

[Ozle]

(except i know there is at least one area town can't go, because i tried and got told i couldnt)

please explain this further. and I can't believe I am saying this... but please be a little more specific if you would. Especially regarding the "tried" part of your sentence.

It's fine, not giving anything away.

I found a Red Room, for scum killed players (which is mentioned in the beginning post) I thought I could go in there and talk to the people, turns out I couldn't.

[yuma]

(except i know there is at least one area town can't go, because i tried and got told i couldnt)

please explain this further. and I can't believe I am saying this... but please be a little more specific if you would. Especially regarding the "tried" part of your sentence.

It's fine, not giving anything away.

I found a Red Room, for scum killed players (which is mentioned in the beginning post) I thought I could go in there and talk to the people, turns out I couldn't.

sorry, can you explain how you tried a little bit more?

[Ozle]

Yes.....paraphrasing Mod response of course

"Robz, can I move into the Red Room please"
"The Red Room is a Captured Vault where the scum nightkill players go, you do not have the right equipment to go there"

So obviously there is something out there that lets town go into those rooms (Opening post says scum can always see the QT's of those rooms, I thought it might be handy if someone in town had that access as well, as implied by the first post)

Again, none of this is really new information, all mentioned in the opening posts, apart from possibly the fact that town players need an item to get in there, but I've not seen one yet.

[yuma]

thanks, the reason I asked is that when I entered a room that was next to a red one a while back I immediately received a PM from Robz explaining what was in the room I was currently in as well as saying that I wasn't able to go into the Red Room. What I found curious is that it appears that you attempted to go into the room and then received the response from Robz whereas I just received an immediate response saying I couldn't go in w/o my even asking to do so.

However, from what you said it appears to me that rather than this being suspicious there was just a very slight inconsistency from Robz in terms of how he modded information about the red room because something you said above makes me believe what you are saying is true, and thus have a little bit more of a town read on you.

[mcmcsalot]

I believe someone has the equipment to go into that room. I am not sure if what happened to me happened to anyone else, but I would assume it did. I actually think scum players would not have had this event happen to them. It is possible we create IC's by claiming if this event occured to you. If we want to say nothing about this event that is fine, I have made mistakes about what I have claimed so far so I am going to let you guys decide. But with nothing else said I tend to think this may have something to do with what ozzle was talking about earlier.

[yuma]

The Oracle should not claim unless claiming actually stops a lynch they know is wrong (so if they got two townies they should stay silent unless those people are being lynched.) or if they found scum, wait to watch intections.

This is kinda were I was going, however, because apparently the oracle is a 1-shot there are no more opportunities for the power to be used during the night. And we don't want the oracle to go to his grave via NK with the information that he has been given--and given the amount of people that have discussed this I think mafia might have a reasonable chance of hitting him tonight--therefore it is probably best that the oracle claim before this day is over. Or at least everyone should make a list of scum to town (the oracle could put the two he investigated as the most town) so that if the oracle does die during the night we can go back and reference that and not lose that valuable info?

And you a right claiming oracle does not guarantee town and that is something we will have to take into consideration, but I regardless of the oracle's alignment I would be more inclined to give townie status to those that were investigated. However, my bet is that if scum bought the oracle, they just won't claim it and won't have used it and just stashed it away to keep it from town.