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[Ozle]

I'll be honest if you had hammered I would be less suspicious of you and would not consider you to be a good lynch for today.

Do you REALLY think I would have announced I was going to hammer and then NOT hammered?
Seriously?
So what I should have done to attract LESS suspicion was to not allow Kooshie a defence or any last minute town to say anything before we went into twilight/night?

As far as I am concerned there really shouldn't be a question about this, I was clearly going to hammer.   Xeiron is town, so theres no way i could have had any contact with him to convince him to hammer instead. He just came out of nowhere and hammered.


And if you believe me that I was going to hammer, then your statement above should mean you dont think I am going to be a good lynch today.

You believed I was going to hammer so much earlier that you forgot I didn't even hammer for the first half of this day.


So my question is:
 do you think I was about to hammer?
Because if the answer is Yes then you shouldn't think I am a good lynch today by your admission above.

If the answer is No then presumably you think im the sort of playing who announces he is going to hammer and then not hammer would not be a really really stupid move for scum

[Ozle]

Deflecting is only scummy if you are derailing a lynch on scum, Ozle. Kooshie was scum.

Yes, if you know 100% he is scum then it is deflecting, I didnt I was considering other reads.

Your point basically says: If you are scum then it proves you are scum.
However, if I am not scum, then I dont know Kooshie is going to flip scum, so I should be giving out other reads.

Nobody knew Kooshie was scum at that point, so I was giving out reads on other people.

So the MINUTE somebody presents a case, if I dont know whether they are scum or not I should just shut up and not say a SINGLE THING about anyone else because thats deflecting?

Seriously?

No wonder town never wins these games anymore if giving out reads on people other than the current DAY ONE Wagon is not supposed to be done.

Is there a reason you and Ashersky keep coming back to the word deflecting and no one else does? Even though neither of you have ever explained what I should have been doing.

I didn't know Kooshie was scum, there was a wagon forming, what should I have been doing?!?!
Because apparently giving reads on other people is scummy.

Shall I just sit on my hands next time?

[Ozle]

Also, isn't there a quote from Eevee somewhere saying that if he is scum and away he usually finds excuses to keep posting and getting involved......whereas he doesnt both so much when he is town.

Was that in this thread?

Because he is supposed to be off enjoying London according to the VLA! I wasn't expecting to see him over the weekend, Londons not that boring!

[yuma]

Sorry this is hard for me from an itouch but I'll try to explain and if that doesn't work will dobehen I get home

if you had hammered kooshie. That would have put you on wagon. And thus off the radar for me. I would nit be looking at you as closely. However that doesn't mean you wouldn't be scum it just means that i think you would not be the lynch for today.

However you didn't hammer. And I am not saying you would not have had xeuron not. I think you would have. So if you are scum it really sucks for you because now instead of being out of the spot light and on wagon you are in the spot light and off wagon so people are looking at you.

As for whether or not hammering scum as scum I'd good play, like I said, I think it is. And I think that is what you were trying to do. But because of xeirion you didn't and that isn't good for you and if you are scum is probably very frustrating.

Does that make sense? If not I'll try again when I am at a real comp.

[Ozle]

Sorry this is hard for me from an itouch but I'll try to explain and if that doesn't work will dobehen I get home

if you had hammered kooshie. That would have put you on wagon. And thus off the radar for me. I would nit be looking at you as closely. However that doesn't mean you wouldn't be scum it just means that i think you would not be the lynch for today.

However you didn't hammer. And I am not saying you would not have had xeuron not. I think you would have. So if you are scum it really sucks for you because now instead of being out of the spot light and on wagon you are in the spot light and off wagon so people are looking at you.

As for whether or not hammering scum as scum I'd good play, like I said, I think it is. And I think that is what you were trying to do. But because of xeirion you didn't and that isn't good for you and if you are scum is probably very frustrating.

Does that make sense? If not I'll try again when I am at a real comp.

I understand what you are trying to say, but your explanation makes you started with the idea that I am scum and worked backwards.
Start with a neutral position of not knowing anything about my alignment, and try to think through the thought process I have said I went through.

• You think I would have hammered
• If i had hammered you wouldnt look at me

Now if I put them together I would assuming that it would shorten your offwagon odds. Except you have put those two together and decided it makes me more scummy than anyone else off wagon.

Basically you are voting for me in the offwagon group because you consider me on wagon because I was going to hammer.


The question you SHOULD be looking at is, why were the people off wagon, not willing to vote Kooshie?
What do you people off wagon think else was going to happen Day 1?
Where was the other momentum?
If they did not think Kooshie wagon was happening, why were they not trying to push for something else?
Did they give a reason why they didnt want to vote Kooshie?
They were content to sit there, and do nothing, unwilling to lynch a scum for no reasons.

[Eevee]

Ozle, it's not "you are scum so you are scum". It's "deflecting away from a scum lynch supports the 'ozle is scum'-narrative quite strongly".

[Eevee]

Also, isn't there a quote from Eevee somewhere saying that if he is scum and away he usually finds excuses to keep posting and getting involved......whereas he doesnt both so much when he is town.

Was that in this thread?

Because he is supposed to be off enjoying London according to the VLA! I wasn't expecting to see him over the weekend, Londons not that boring!

Going to sketch then dstrkt (or something like that), come and spot a wild Eevee!

[Ozle]

Ozle, it's not "you are scum so you are scum". It's "deflecting away from a scum lynch supports the 'ozle is scum'-narrative quite strongly".

But your argument only works if you KNOW i am scum

If I am scum, its deflecting
If I am town its giving reads.

You dont know which one I am, therefore it could be either.

If I am town, I would do exactly the same thing I would do as if I am scum?

You can only know its deflecting or reads after the fact.

And this goes for EVERYBODY


What you also have to ask, the people who are off wagon, were they giving reads on anyone?
I assume they were.
So why were they not deflecting?

[Ozle]

Also, isn't there a quote from Eevee somewhere saying that if he is scum and away he usually finds excuses to keep posting and getting involved......whereas he doesnt both so much when he is town.

Was that in this thread?

Because he is supposed to be off enjoying London according to the VLA! I wasn't expecting to see him over the weekend, Londons not that boring!

Going to sketch then dstrkt (or something like that), come and spot a wild Eevee!

No idea about Sketch, but Dstrk isnt my sort of place. They would probably make me wear a decent shirt and proper shoes to get in!

I tend to go to the slightly less commercialised clubbing places!
Tomorrow were going to a bar that has a bowling alley in it, and also 80/90's arcade machines and consoles!

[yuma]

The question you SHOULD be looking at is, why were the people off wagon, not willing to vote Kooshie?
What do you people off wagon think else was going to happen Day 1?
Where was the other momentum?
If they did not think Kooshie wagon was happening, why were they not trying to push for something else?
Did they give a reason why they didnt want to vote Kooshie?
They were content to sit there, and do nothing, unwilling to lynch a scum for no reasons.

This is a legitimate question. I'll try to answer for myself and see if I can find what others were saying at the time.

yuma - wasn't on the kooshie wagon, never really talked about the kooshie wagon, mostly because the last time I post before the day ended was when the wagon wasn't noticeable or worth talking about.

mcmc - argued heavily against the kooshie wagon, at least that is the impression I got from before, but now I am not seeing it. I did see this:

As for me three targets, I believe I mentioned it but jorble asked again so I will clear it up. I did not say "we" should be looking at yuma, mail-mi, and kooshie. I said raerae should look at them. You were correct yuma was because I simply have a hard time reading him and we disagreed a bit so I wanted raerae to give her insight. As for mail-mi and kooshie, I had slight scum reads on both and new raerae played very closely with mail-mi and especially kooshie in the newbie game so I figured she would have a good read on them.

really the only time it is very apparent he is against the lynch is the hammer falls

Ugh very scummy on xeiron hammering befor people say anything and hammering out of the blue(no posts previously) and a vote change in that same post my vote will be on him tomorrow. Also still don't think kooshie is scum sorry I didn't argue harder. But his wagon will give us a lot tomorrow.

this is still suspicious however

sparky/arch - sparky was for the kooshie lynch pretty early on, but never actually on it. Expressed hesitation to put kooshie to L-1. This is suspicious.

Ozle - expressed that kooshie wasn't the best lynch early, but that it was an ok day1 lynch, then expressed willingness to hammer, had opportunity stolen.

insomniac - doesn't say anything about kooshie and wasn't around for the wagon at all. This is suspicious out of omission, but not out of commission.

Jimmmm - same as insomniac.


So to reiterate:

Jimmm, yuma and insomniac really make no reference to kooshie all day1. None support or deflect in regard to the wagon, but all were a little absent at the time of the wagon build up and the hammer. Hard to read this because it is hard to know what they would have done if they were around.

Mcmc - argued agains the lynch.

Ozle, sparky/arch - both expressed willingness to hammer but neither did.

So ozle... you ask why others didn't hammer. The answer is that 1. they thought kooshie was town (mcmc), 2. weren't online to express anything (yuma, Jimmm, Insomniac) or 3. they wanted to give kooshie a last chance to respond.

Of this I can't really find Jimmm, yuma or insomniac suspicious (for this reason, I think it is plausible to have other suspicions about them in regard to other things). I can and do find mcmc suspicious and I can find and do find you and sparky/arch suspicious.

Like I said before I am basically willing to lynch anyone off wagon (really with the exception of insomniac), because I think that is the biggest supporting evidence. I think scum arguing against a lynch is just as likely as scum wanting to buss. Neither are ideal situations, but scum getting lynched day1 is never an ideal situation for scum.

[yuma]

Unofficial

sudgy (1) -- Insomniac
Ozle (6) -- ashersky, mcmcsalot, raerae, yuma, Eevee, sudgy {L-2}
ashersky (1) -- Ozle
Archetype (1) -- liopoil
mail-mi (1) -- archetype, Jimmmm
Insomniac (1) -- mail-mi, Jorbles

Not Voting (3) -- Lekkit

I'll keep my vote on ozle. He is our best chance to lynch today atm, is suspicious enough for me--equivilant to the others off wagon--and more suspicious than anyone else on wagon, his arguments notwithstanding. Ozle it isn't that your arguments dont' make sense. Often they do. But really scum is always going to have a strong argument, especially good scum. And if you were in mcmc's situation, or my situation or Jimmm's situation, you would have a strong argument about what you would/wouldn't do as scum. But those arguments hold no water. Because they aren't substantiated. All I have are facts. And the fact is that you weren't on the wagon. Expressed willingness to hammer when previously you weren't interested. That is enough for me to keep my vote on you.

[Ozle]

All I have are facts. And the fact is that you weren't on the wagon. Expressed willingness to hammer when previously you weren't interested

I still fail to see how this makes any logical sense.
Im suspicious for wanting to get on the wagon and had the opportunity stolen, and suspicious for not being on the wagon.
If you believe I was prepared to hammer then your including me in both groups
Ok, next time we'll all just sit around and do nothing and waste another 10 days DAY ONE shall we?


No wonder town hardly ever win if this is the sort of play we are encouraging from the people leading the votes against me:


Im not allowed to give reads unless its about the current wagon. Just in case a DAY ONE Wagon is scum.
Anybody who hammers a scum player is scummy
Anybody who changes thier mind about a player is scummy, especially if they change thier mind about a scum.
Anybody who tries to get on THE ONLY LYNCH GOING on DAY ONE to end the day (And stated this at the time) is scummy
Anyone who tries to save some valuable days instead of just sitting on thier hands is scummier than people who defended the lynch of scum and just sat there.

Because thats why Eevee, Yuma and Ashersky are voting for me apparently.
And the rest of the people on me have just sheeped them.

Unbelievable.

So basically I am getting lynched for:
A) Giving Reads on people Day 1 instead of voting on an unknown player early and lynching them
B) Trying to hammer someone who turned out to be scum
C) Trying to save town bankable days. (I mentioned this quite a bit on Day 1)

So, what I should have been doing is
A) Ignoring the reads on other people because I didnt know whether the current lynch candidate is scum or not
B) Not hammering scum
C) Try to extend Day 1 into a useless pointless drawn out exercise when there was only going to be one outcome

Im getting lynched for doing townie things!

Now, could someone explain to me how a Town SHOULD have acted on Day 1?
Because it seems like Day 1 went like this:
Liopoil gives a short read on Kooshie that was basically 'not posting much content'
Everybody else sheeps that read
The rest of the people sit on thier hands and do nothing pretty much.

and I'M the scummiest person to you people that are voting for me?

Please.

Remember the good old days where we didnt try to second guess everything and did things properly without trying to think somebody is 4 moves ahead and 'aaahh but thats what you want me to think so I shall think this, unless thats what you think I would think, etc....)


Trying to hammer someone is now a scum move apparently.
Yuma has stated Insomniac has done that once in a game (missed that one, was a lot of games to look through!).Ok, so its possible.

Now go and look at alllllll the other normal games, allll of them. How many times has scum been hammered by town and town has done it. All of the rest! Wow, thats possibly 50/60/100 -1 or more?
You want facts Yuma, how about that for a fact?
Scum dont hammer scum in 99.9% of cases, and never on day 1

Now you could say Im clever enough as scum to do that all you like, but the fact remains, if I was scum I could have quite happily sat it out and none of this would be happening right now. I would have had no need to draw attention to myself, and it would be other people who did it, and plus they would have drawn the day out considerably.

And if any of you say I didn't hammer scum that is the same as saying I wasn't intending to hammer scum, I just stated it and didnt intend to do it, that would possibly have been the worse move a scum could do, so don't even consider accusing me of that.

[yuma]

Ozle...

I am voting for you because

1. you weren't on the wagon
2. your defense isn't compelling enough (both what I have looked at myself and what you have said)
3. you have the most votes at the moment out of the handful of people that I would be willing to vote

Everything else is just meh...

Other things to the side of that. 1. you haven't offered up another lynch option, at least not a viable one. You are still voting for ashersky! He isn't getting lynched today. 2. there have been more than 1 scum hammer on scum. I dont' even think you looked at my spreadsheet.... Other examples are aplenty (although like you said, no day1 and most are toward the lategame. However, scum rarely gets lynched day1 so isn't a very good sample size to look at)... Examples include isnom on sparky in MXII, ehunt on themunch in MXVI, Lekkit on ashersky in MXVIII, Robz on mcmc in MXIX, sparky on Grujah in ZM7--although I think that lost scum the game--, and I can't say about rmm or bastard games.

I understand your frustration if you are town. I am a bit frustrated as well. I am frustrated that this day has gone on soooo long. I am frustrated jimmm didn't get lynched. I am frustrated that day1 ended with a derphammer, making all of this ridiculous stuff necessary. But for you to extrapolate what I am saying into absolutes the way you are is complete nonsense. Every game is different and I suggest that town play the best game each game. All I know right now is that I want to lynch off wagon, you are off wagon and your defense isn't a compelling enough reason for me to switch elsewhere. Like I said, the only compelling reason for me at this point to change my vote is if someone else off wagon looks more likely to be lynched than you. But you haven't done anything to further that cause (and maybe you feel like you shouldn't) so my vote sticks. Sorry man. I think this conversation has gone on far enough and is just being distracting, so I am done.

[sudgy]

I realized that nobody has been looking at yuma.  I did a reread of him.

Early on, the main thing I see from him is that he vehemently argues against mapclaiming.  Which doesn't say much, it could be town suggesting something towny or scum trying to get towncred.

Now this jumped out to me a bit:

2. in the past few games there has also been a movement of scum toward the top of the posting board. See Robz in MXIX, myself in MXIX and in MXX. Scum just isn't lurking as much anymore!!! And that is great! Here is why, and is something I have said from the very beginning. It is hard to post as scum. It really, really is. As scum in multiple previous games I can attest to this. It is super, super hard. To come up with stuff to say that isn't incriminating, that doesn't have slips, that you are able to maintain throughout a game is very very difficult. And eventually, if--and this is the catch!!--you post enough, you will slip up. You will make a mistake somewhere ala Frisk in MVIII or sparky in MIX.

It could also be read as, "If someone posts an insane amount, they must be town."  Now, who here has been posting quite a bit?  Himself (and others too, but we're just looking at you right now).

this is just speculation but from what I understand, mafia kills are somewhat dependent on location in the bank yes? So maybe xeiron made the most sense from that perspecitve... he had somethign they wanted and somehow knew that... I don't know. And don't want to go into speculating too much except to say that there are intangibles that we don't know about.

When did Robz tell us that mafia kills are dependent on where we are in the bank?

He suggested looking off wagon for the mafia.  What if two of them were on, and he was trying to deflect things?

Also, he seemed to be tunneling somewhat on Jimmmmm and Ozle...

All in all, yuma's given me the read of "seems like town too much, not sure if it's town or scum."  He's done a fair bit in this game, if we know his alignment it might clear up a fair bit of things.  All of this leads me to Vote: yuma.

[yuma]

sudgy...

point 1. remember who I was voting for day1? Do you remember? It was lio. He was the highest poster day1. in the quote you completely ignore the context. I was saying that while lio was posting a lot, that doesn't make him town as a lot of scum players have been posting high amounts. You are competely interpreting this statement wrong and out of context.

point 2. maybe you also didn't read the part where I say, "this is just speculation" I don't think robz told us that anywhere, but that is how I understood it, and still kinda understood it. SPECULATION!

point 3. If two are on... which I highly doubt it would make sense for scum!yuma to deflect off wagon. But again, I highly doubt it, instead I am saying "Guys, come look off wagon where I am!!!" See my point?

point 4. Are you reading this game? I have voted for ashersky, mail-mi, Jimmm, Ozle, archetype. I would be willing to vote for mcmc. Really are you reading?

[mail-mi]

I'm keeping my vote on insom but if Ozle is getting lynched, I'll vote for him.

[yuma]

I'm keeping my vote on insom but if Ozle is getting lynched, I'll vote for him.

what does this even mean?

He has 6 votes on him. One more and you would be willing to hammer? Why not just vote for him now so someone else can hammer and we can end this day? Or are you saying that you don't want to vote for him, but hope someone will put him to l-1 or hammer him?

just vote for him if that is what you want to do.

[mail-mi]

I'm keeping my vote on insom but if Ozle is getting lynched, I'll vote for him.

what does this even mean?

He has 6 votes on him. One more and you would be willing to hammer? Why not just vote for him now so someone else can hammer and we can end this day? Or are you saying that you don't want to vote for him, but hope someone will put him to l-1 or hammer him?

just vote for him if that is what you want to do.

This means that I'd rather lynch insomniac but if ozle becomes the only possible lynch (hes getting close) then I will vote for him.

[Ozle]

1. you weren't on the wagon - I tried to get on the wagon only the derp hammer stopped me! This is surely accepted fact

2. your defense isn't compelling enough (both what I have looked at myself and what you have said) - My defense is that everything i have been accused of doing are townie actions, I have done what town SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING. Nobody yet has come up with examples of what I should have done differently! This is my whole point. Tell me what I should have done day 1, please tell me. I have answered every single point that has been raised, most with the point that thats exaclty what town would have been doing in that point. By just saying 'thats what scum would do as well' gives me nothing to defend. This is why I am frustrated, the case against me is that I did town things, I have pointed out these things is what I would have done as town and nobody has yet answered me on that point. Yet someone like Ashersky has done noticibly scummy things (even admitted it himself!) and gets a free pass from you and others. My defence isn't compelling because there is nothing I can defend against because the two people are voting for me for doing townie actions and the rest are just sheeping!

3. you have the most votes at the moment out of the handful of people that I would be willing to vote - You switched your vote to me while Jimmm stilll had waay more votes, in fact you switched your vote to me after I had TWO VOTES ON ME. Asherskys (Who you yourself has said was suspicious, especially as he agrees with my reasoning over why I switched which is one of your main scumminess points, and Eevees who you two seem to be avoiding all contact with each other for now - Someone make a note of that in case one of them turn up scum) Who came right out the gate swinging for you and I.

ike I said, the only compelling reason for me at this point to change my vote is if someone else off wagon looks more likely to be lynched than you. But you haven't done anything to further that cause (and maybe you feel like you shouldn't) so my vote sticks.

What am I supposed to do?
Just roll over and let people build such a weak case on me? Of course not.
I've stated the people I will vote for, and would be happy to vote for any of them. But nothing will change your mind except a smoking gun, you said this aaaaages ago.

Also, how dare you throw "(and maybe you feel like you shouldn't)" that in there as an aside to imply I might not care!!!!
What part of the continued defense I am putting up implies I dont care.
Again, what would you have me do, I tried to get Jimmmm lynched, I tried to get Ashersky lynched. And then all of a sudden its swung to me, and I refuse to just roll over and die and let town bodge this.

[yuma]

Sorry man. I think this conversation has gone on far enough and is just being distracting, so I am done.

[Ozle]

Ok, I was hoping to save this to preent a mislynch later....but it looks like im doomed so I want to get this out into public Domain.

Which player bought the LOAN night 0?

Now, whoever bought it should know that actually this info is largely irrelevant to scum, because what the loan did was give you extra money Night 0 and then you lost some Night 1 so by the end of Night 1 the person who bought it had a net gain of 0 as if they hadn't bought.

As the next night is Night 2 I feel its safe for you to own up to this.

If you do I am pretty sure I can give you some good cred

[Ozle]

Sorry man. I think this conversation has gone on far enough and is just being distracting, so I am done.

Yes I know, I read your post the first time.

That does not mean I am going to let you say the same incorrect statements about me again and I wont reply.

I know why your voting for me, and when I flip and turn town hopefully if you are town you will re-evaluate what you see as scummy and instead of ignoring blatantly scummy actions you will look at them.

[yuma]

vote: mcmc 

[yuma]

no, really vote: ozle

[yuma]

but like I said before... if you can get enough people to go elsewhere, I probably will as well. But you haven't really tried to do that.