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[Lekkit]

So the mini-quiz! I'm doing this from the top of my head without any rereading. I will make one after rereading and see how it differs.

mcmcsalot
yuma
Jimm
Insomniac
Ozle


mcmcsalot has been flying under my radar. I think he has expressed some reads and argued with a couple of people.

yuma has probably been one of the most vocal players, which is a reason to keep him around. I think he has said a few things that sounds off to me, but if I recall correctly those are mainly theory stuff that we seem to disagree on. Would like to keep him around.

Jimm reads town to me. It's a pity he hasn't said more. I could probably be swayed into voting for him if it came down to it since it would probably be one of the most informal lynches this game, but I would obviously prefer voting for someone I think is scum.

Insomniac hasn't really been here. Even though he has made some posts containing stuff, he hasn't struck me as either scummy or towny. I don't think he's the best lynch, since we really don't have much interaction with him besides people calling him lurky. He compiled a long case on someone, who I can't remember. I guess I'll have to go back and reread that.

Ozle is the other of the two very vocal players. Sounds really frustrated about being voted for without, according to him, a proper reason. I have a hard time believing that he would argue this much if he was scum after Kooshie was nailed for pretty much that. Between him and yuma, I would lynch Ozle, but if I had the the choice to not lynch either of them I would prefer that.

So in order of willingness to lynch to non-willingness to lynch I would put the off-wagoners like this:

mcmc, Insomniac, Ozle, yuma/Jimmmm

[Jimmmmm]

Jimm reads town to me. It's a pity he hasn't said more. I could probably be swayed into voting for him if it came down to it since it would probably be one of the most informal lynches this game, but I would obviously prefer voting for someone I think is scum.

You can lynch me, but please, no ties allowed.

[Lekkit]

Unfortunately I don't have time right now to do a reread and update the list. I'll be here for another 10 minutes and then I'll head home. I may be able to check in quickie later today or tommorow. But since I'll be playing a Netrunner tournament and meet my mother I don't know how much I'll be able to actually contribute. I could vote if needed.

[Lekkit]

Jimm reads town to me. It's a pity he hasn't said more. I could probably be swayed into voting for him if it came down to it since it would probably be one of the most informal lynches this game, but I would obviously prefer voting for someone I think is scum.

You can lynch me, but please, no ties allowed.

Ties?

[Lekkit]

Also, while I think time is valuable, I don't think we need to rush things. Most of the games take more time during the earlier days. In the absolute worst case scenario, we'll be playing a pseudo blitz game in the end.

[Lekkit]

But I agree that this day has taken a lot of time. I think ending it just before a weekend might not be a super duper move, though.

[Jimmmmm]

Jimm reads town to me. It's a pity he hasn't said more. I could probably be swayed into voting for him if it came down to it since it would probably be one of the most informal lynches this game, but I would obviously prefer voting for someone I think is scum.

You can lynch me, but please, no ties allowed.

Ties?

It will be an informal lynch.

[liopoil]

So, hammering a scum, that can be dodgy, sure I accepted that at the time I knew what it would look like, but I accepted that because I knew we were not going to do another lynch that day, and id rather save the valuable bankable days for future dates.
I explained this at the time, Ashersky thought it was a good idea.

This bit is scummy, as it seems like he knew kooshie was scum, because he said he accepted at the time that hammering scum can be dodgy... at the time he didn't know kooshie was scum though, if he is town!

[liopoil]

lekkit, you forgot arch in your off-wagon thing. It's great that lekkit and arch have started posting though...

[Jorbles]

Also, while I think time is valuable, I don't think we need to rush things. Most of the games take more time during the earlier days. In the absolute worst case scenario, we'll be playing a pseudo blitz game in the end.

We really haven't been rushing things we've been eating up a lot of our bankable days.

[Ozle]

So, hammering a scum, that can be dodgy, sure I accepted that at the time I knew what it would look like, but I accepted that because I knew we were not going to do another lynch that day, and id rather save the valuable bankable days for future dates.
I explained this at the time, Ashersky thought it was a good idea.

This bit is scummy, as it seems like he knew kooshie was scum, because he said he accepted at the time that hammering scum can be dodgy... at the time he didn't know kooshie was scum though, if he is town!

What?

I wrote that about 15 minutes ago, we all know today she is scum.
Hammering Kooshie was going to be dodgy whether she was town or scum considering I had not voted for her before, thats what I knew.
There are commas there, meant to imply that its separate. It was in response to the fact that I switched and hammered. I suppose thats what happens when you have to repeat the same thing hundreds of times. I can write it out in bigger sentences for you if you like?

In full:

I hammered a scum, that can look dodgy
I accepted that at the time I knew what it would look like when I hammered Kooshie because I had not had my vote on her at all, but I accepted that because I knew we were not going to do another lynch that day, and id rather save the valuable bankable days for future dates.

Better?

[Jimmmmm]

Vote: mail-mi is where I'm leaning at the moment. Would also vote for sudgy. Undecided on Ozle, but I fully support a deadline.

[Ozle]

Vote: mail-mi is where I'm leaning at the moment. Would also vote for sudgy. Undecided on Ozle, but I fully support a deadline.

Except the deadline that you proposed and then let pass by?

[Jimmmmm]

I never said I'd do anything at the given time.

[Ozle]

I never said I'd do anything at the given time.

That is a fair and true point

It was Ashersky that proposed the deadline and didnt stick to it, you just asked to extend it till Midnight, which was perfectly acceptablerequest

[Jimmmmm]

I gave Ozle a bit of a re-read. He could very well be scum. But at this stage I think sudgy or mail-mi are more likely to be. Ozle has been very loud and in people's faces, but it is coming across as quite natural, like he's just saying what he thinks. Now that can be replicated as scum, and hats off to him if he's doing that, but I think more often it isn't. So I will support the Ozle lynch if it's the only way of getting us to night. But mail-mi has been super sheepy and provided very little in terms of reasons for voting, and I don't really buy sudgy's reasons for voting for me.

[yuma]

Real quick post from work.

I guess this is something I don't understand is how people can be voting for people on the kooshie wagon, especially people like me who were off. I mean if there were obvious scum on wagon I would say vote for them. But there isn't. None of the on wagon players are greatly more scummy than those off. And at this point the only thing we know 100 percent is who voted for scum and who didn't. That is huge! And every time we make a case, and I have done it too, on some one on wAgon we are ignoring that evidence.

And like I said people off wagon should be especially willing to vote off wagon since they "should" know that they are town thereby eliminating one more person from the pool of potential scum.

If people disagree tell me. But thus far I have just seen people agree with this in one post and then vote in wagon shortly thereafter!

[Jimmmmm]

Just for reference,

On: liopoil, Eevee, Jorbles, sudgy, Lekkit, mail-mi, ashersky, raerae
Off: mcmcsalot, yuma, Jimmmmm, Insomniac, Ozle, sparky5856Arch

If I had to pick someone off, I would have to look more closely at mcmc and Insom.

[Ozle]

Yuma, (well anyone else as well)

I am struggling to get my head round the fact that if I was scum, and I therefore knew Kooshie was scum I would leap onto the wagon and draw so much attention to myself.

Im not a complete noob at this game, if I was scum and saw 2 of us off wagon and 1 on, I would have got on much earlier to prevent such a thing from happening because the obvious thing when scum is lynched is to look at the people who didnt vote for them them

Im struggling to see that if I was scum why I would jump on the known scum wagon at such a dramatic and obvious point calling attention to myself.


Does that fit what you all know of me?
That I'm such a a newb at playing scum that knowing Kooshie was scum, I would draw attention to myself with such a late hammer.


I want everyone to ask themselves this:
If you were scum and off wagon, would you have jumped up and said you would hammer at the last minute?

I bet you wouldn't....and while I am sure a lot of you are better scum player than me, I think it would be a fundamental thing of scum NOT to draw attention to themselves like this.


I know this is a fundamental thing because I have just looked through Yuma's spreadsheets and I can see only a very tiny amount of scum hammering town, and no scum hammering thier own team scum in the history of F.DS.

Its just a stupid move to do. Scum does not simply hammer scum, especially not in the fashion I did it.

[mail-mi]

I'm going to compile all of Insom's posts:

Normally you aren't allowed to do anything veritably random in these.

So anyways the one thing that is interesting about the setup is we could disclose how much we explored. At first I thought this favoured mafia as it would let them know who has the most money/power role. BUT the better power roles are found by exploring so it could save our weak PRs at the cost of ones that could be stronger later. I don't know, food for thought.

Vote: Ashersky

Making sure you say something is an X-Tell in every post is not the way I've ever seen you play town.

Then he starts arguing with xeiron about no lynch:

We are 16 player right now.
As far as I understand, a odd number of living players is better for town.
Furthermore, chances that a cop will pop up will increase every night, so it appears to me that we want this game to carry on as many days as possible.

So isn't it best to no Lynch the first day?

Its never better to no lynch. Ever.

Its never better to no lynch. Ever.

Yes it is.
As explained in these links there are scenarioes where no lynch is optimal for town.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Happily_ever_after
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6420.0

I'm inclined to think this is such a situation, but I am not completly sure.

I disagree with the parity argument and Happily ever after is a scum win.

That's all the arguing.

Alright. Weekend over. I'm back and caught up. Am now firmly against claimin unless you have something worth claiming.

Re: Insom votes. I'm actually a bit torn on this one. I 100% like Ozle's vote. That one is legit. Ash and sudgy just posted a vote for me without backing it up because I was an easy vote at the time. Now here's my issue. I already found ash scummy. But sudgy? That guy decided to defend his vote on me after the fact which is way more scummy than I feel about ash right now so I will be putting my vote there for now. Vote: sudgy

I have no strong feelings on liopoli vs kooshie right now as I don't have a ton of back data on these players.

Eevee lurking is probably the most bothersome to me of their post CPU gets. Though I put far less into that stat since I have lurked as town and its just because I'm busy in RL (talking about masons vs monks right now)

It's funny how everyone's saying about yuma, "I don't have a Townread on you, therefore you must be Town."

Yuma is my strongest town read right now but I have a habit of reading him wrong lately. In games where he is scum though I tend to read his posts and think he has a strong point but expresses it in a way that is non confrontational and often forgettable. Here he has been much more confrontational and is one of the people I remember is playing this game the most

Then in #447 he says he had an auto correct mistake.

From Eevee: ins, do you then disagree with robz in that lurking is what I'd do as scum?

With Robz?

I think you'd lurk as scum or be active as scum, I don't think you have a set meta for how you play scum.

#567 complains about Xeiron's quickhammer

Defending his lurkiness:

Ok so yea I'm lurky but as I've said before this is my last mafia game for a long while, and I've been lurky in non mafia games too. Anyways meta aside, do any of you think I would let a team I'm scum with kill Xeiron, I mean really? No, no, no, Scum Insom would have let Xeiron lived and DEFENDED him the next day. Yes I play every game different and am not above lurking as scum (Ozle's game, when I failed to convince people to lynch scum!Eevee) or lurking as town (Masons and Monks). But I'm town here.

Ozle, I did not start in a hallway.

#637 compliments sudgy's vote on him...

#640-642 starts to get frustrated, says that people aren't reading his posts.

Asks me if he is being sincere angry, asks why anger is scummy:

From mail-mi: Whoa, Insomniac, getting a little angry? Lurk and then come back super mad is scummy to me. vote: insom

I get angry as town all the time, but yes I can also fake angry as scum, so am I being sincere this game or not. Also why is anger scummy?

#708 votes for Sudgy again, says he is being "just as active as everyone else."

#825 defends himself from mcmc's post about him being lurky

Again with the sudgy case:

Alright, so you won't be getting it today (it's my birthday just logged on quick to check on this game). But I still think Sudgy is very scummy and I will compile my case on the matter tomorrow. If Jimmmmm get's lynched today I'll have it prepared for Day 3. Please EVERYONE note the bold section, we can infer mafia will, so you may be able to derive information from that on Day 3 in the unlikely case I am the night kill.

Then in #1080 we finally have the case on sudgy. I hope you all remember that, cuz it would be confusing to copy and paste it.

Next post explains why the first quote is empty in post #1080.

Gives kooshie-sudgy interactions:

Kooshie Sudgy interactions.

From Sudgy there is two times that he mentions Kooshie after RVS, one actually neutral to me, the other looks scummy. (Neutral->Day 1, Scummy->Day 2)

From sudgy: This is turning into MXXI...  I'm starting to think either liopoil or kooshie is scum...  Right after liopoil makes a big case on kooshie...

This is before there is TOO much heat on kooshie and initially seems townie, but he could just be placing himself on the psuedo wagon in case kooshie did get lynched, I probably lean a bit of a townie read from this post, although I'm still fairly confident that sudgy is scum. After this he becomes the 4th vote on the wagon however two of the votes for kooshie came AFTER he voiced his pseudo support (there was only one vote liopoli at the time of this post).

From Sudgy: Looking at you quote, I see Kooshie (a townie) gave Jimmmmm a townread.  When I don't think many people could give him a townread.  This is enough to push me over to Vote: Jimmmmm.  This is L-1, nobody else vote until he's said some things.

This is the one on day 2 where he gives Kooshie town status.


I was surprised to notice that Kooshie DIDN'T MENTION SUDGY AT ALL. However she didn't mention most players, here is a list of players she does mention.
Liopoli
Ashersky
Patpatpat
Jimmmmm
Yuma
Raerae
Jorbles
Mail-mi
Lekkit

many of them just in passing.

I suspect there is at least 3 scum in a game this size so I suspect one of them would have been mentioned and the other not mentioned but this is more of a hunch then anything really concrete.

Gives reads:

I lean town on Jimmm. He doesn't have much content despite his larger post count than me but I lean town because he map claimed and stated he would self hammer (though he didn't)

Aside from Sudgy as scum and Yuma as town I don't have a strong read on many people right now and as such most of you are "slightly scummy"

Yuma is town because there is no way scum yuma would have on numerous occasions stood against my lynch when it would have been so easy to just let it happen.

And his last post is...

Ash Jimm already claimed pages back

Other than the sudgy case, there is not much content. Where are you man! Vote: Insomniac

I don't think that Ozle is scum, he's beenn very townie in his defense.

[sudgy]

Does Ozle, as town, usually do this?  His defense seems a bit much (if he was scum).  I'm going to Unvote yet again, and would be willing to vote for Insomniac (I forgot he was here) because of his still general lurkiness, somewhat tunneling me, and just seeming a bit generally scummy to me.

[Jorbles]

I can get behind an Insomniac lynch. It's better than an Ozle one, though I'd prefer a Jimmmmm lynch.

[Jorbles]

I guess I should vote. Vote: Insomniac.

[Eevee]

Deflecting is only scummy if you are derailing a lynch on scum, Ozle. Kooshie was scum.

[yuma]

Wring. Insomniac hammered his partner sparky in mxii in the second day. This gave him huge town credit and he went onto win the game.

However to your point why you didn't get on the kooshie wagon earlier? I don't know why didn't you? When you posted that lekkit was sheeping and thar the kooshie case wasn't as good kooshie was at 3 or 4 votes out of 9. You didn't post again, probably because you weren't online until he was at l1. At that point you were an eager beaver to lynch. I'll be honest if you had hammered I would be less suspicious of you and would not consider you to be a good lynch for today. I would have looked at you closely in later days however. But instead xeuron hammered instead. Look I know you are a good player and all I am saying is that I think trying to get onto a partners wagon that you know is going to happen IS good scum play that vets will do. Staying off completly is what newbs do or players that don't have a chance to buss cause the wagon formed while they were away.