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[Ozle]

Pretty sure I posted my explanation for Kooshie intent to hammer.

It was a fairly weak case, but it did not look like we were able to build a case on anyone else, therefore it was the best case going and we were already using up bankable deadlines in DAY ONE

Someone needed to hammer or we would have spent aaaages day 1 faffing about not doing anything productive. It was Day 1, there was a case on someone, it was the only case we had and the only likely lynch so I stated intent to vote, it would have been the hammer so i waited for anything Kooshie was going to give us before hammering, which was the correct thing to do in the circumstance.

Did anyone have any real proper good to honest scum reads day 1? I doubt that, so I felt it was in towns best interest to get that lynch done.

Something I believe Ashersky wholehearted to agree with in time.

And Ashersky, do you really think I would be randomly fishing in the same timeframe that I posted people shouldn't be randomly fishing?
Do you really think I am that stupid?
Re-read it again, and the posts before and after, especially the bits in big bold letters.

[mcmcsalot]

I just lost an entire page of analysis and summary do to a slip of my hand on the keyboard apologies if this now comes out short.

1) Arch/Lekkit/Insom need to come in and comment on Jimm
  1A) Arch/Lekkit, I know there is alot to reread but I suggest prioritizing a jimm reread and lettingus know what you think. I understand you don't want to lynch before a full reread but we are wasting time somewhat and you can finish a reread during night.
  1B) Insom, if your town please start contributing more, mafia doesn't have to be anyone first priority but you have 19 posts in 1050, and when you have posted you have yelled at people being lazy and not willing to go back and read your posts. If your scum, keep it up I'll lynch you eventually!

2) Summary of confirmed non Jimm voters. If Jimm flips scum I really think his buddies are trying to save him and therefor not voting for him, depending on how the above three act, there may be scum in the below three.
  2A) Ash, reasons for no jimm vote are suspect, says there are better cases and makes me feel like he is trying to push people in other directions without being on record defending his buddy. Could also be because defending jimm isn't productive and scum hunting others is, towny due the the case hes made on ozzle.
  2B) Raerae, reasons are also suspect, says jimm wouldn't play scum this way but I find it hard to believe that is a strong enough reason. She may be artificially inflating this reasoning to avoid voting her scum buddy. Note she also has discussed jimm quite a bit more than the others.
  2C) Eevee, reason are similar to raerae along with finding jimms scrambling towny. I want to say eevee is town but his reason isn't all that much better.

3) Things to discuss today/tomorow depending on decision to lynch jimm or not.
  3A) Depending on if insom begins to contribute or not, his posts need to be reread to find any motives town!insom or scum!insom have for playing the way he is. Look for interactions with kooshie and any reads he has given on other players.
  3B) Ash's case on ozzle has merit. He was off K-wagon and deflected to someone I feel is towny with no real reason for coming around to saying he would vote for kooshie. Need to look at how he has acted about the jimm wagon. Ash has made some connections to ozzle and yuma, this needs to be looked at post yuma reread to see if anything can be made from it.
  3C) This is more for me, but I need to complete a yuma reread and decide how I feel about him, then use that to judge a few other people.
 
4) More people to look at that people have said are likely town that I'm not sure deserve this pass.
  4A) Ash has said liopoil is very likely town, not sure I agree, his play D2 has read very scummy to me but I will look again.
  4B) Mail-mi is still being discussed about, I have said I think he is town due to "bad play" and don't think there is much of a case but I will find my D1 opinions and any early D2 things I found.
  4C) Sudgy, I think I was suspicious of him D1 and now found him very towny D2, I think this has to do with how he acted toward kooshie but need to double check.

[mcmcsalot]

Ozzle, I don't feel you are a strong lynch candidate for today simply from reading ash's case. I still find your motives for voting for kooshie suspect. It was day 1 and yes it was a case, but as you saw more people were willing to vote for kooshie. I will look back to see if you said anything about it prior to stating intent to hammer. I think you may have wanted to jump on wagon at the end rather than wanting to end the day, the later being much scummier. To address something you have said, you don't seem to be pushing all that hard for any lynch at all today(again I will fact check) if you were so concerned with us taking to long to get a lynch D1 why have you not been here posting and calling for reads/opinions of non jimm voters.

Much of the reason I don't find you a good lynch candidate for today is I don't think your behavior D2 has been scummy, I doubt you were fishing.

[Ozle]

If Asherskys entire case on me is that I switched my vote to Kooshie then I am entirely comfortable with my rebuttal. Thats a pretty increbibly weak case but lets go through it point by point.

"Here is Ozle attacking someone I think, in retrospect, is most probably town.  So, attacking probtown, and if you read the context around the post, deflecting from a Kooshie wagon that may or may not pick up steam at that point to Eevee."

IN RETROSPECT is probably town, yeah, its easy to say liopoil is town now, but it didnt look that way yesterday, thats why Ashersky has used the word Retrospectively here.
I still think Eevee was a better lynch Day 1, but couldnt get any support.
Thats not defelcting, thats trying to build a wagon on someone, someone people should have been doing day 1 instead of just sheeping.


"Another Ozle post on Kooshie, defending Kooshie by calling the case "not strong" and trying to deflect to Eevee again."
Are you trying to say the case on Kooshie was STRONG? Because it wasn't. Was it? I cannot remember you giving any STRONG reasons for your vote on Kooshie. It was a case, it was the best case going, but it still wasnt a strong case. It was just a good meta read by liopoil.
And yes, at this point in the day I didn't feel we were yet locked into the Kooshie lynch and i still think Eevee was the best lynch.

Onto the next point.......oh wait, that was it. Yay.

And lets include in this great quote from Ashersky after I stated my intent to hammer......

I'm good with Ozle's reasons.

He is good with my reasons for my change of vote to Kooshie.
Thats quite an important quote to consider

Hopefully I have put your mind at rest now Ashersky?

is there anything else you would like me to address?

I have to assume that either you or Eevee is scum here trying to stop the lynch of a buddy, and obviously I want it to be Eevee because that means I was right Day 1

Also didnt Jimmmm himself propose a soft deadline of what seems like a week ago?

[Jimmmmm]

Yeah, we're just kind of flailing at the moment. I'm really struggling to follow this game, and for that I'm sorry to all the other Townies, you deserve better. But it doesn't really look like there are other decent options on the table at the moment. SO. Tomorrow morning my time (It's now 1am) I'll have a look at things and see if there is some more positive direction we can go in. Tomorrow afternoon if I haven't been able to come up with something, I will self-hammer, and get us into night. There's no point wasting another week on this and then lynching me. Again, I'm sorry.

[Insomniac]

Ok it's a bit later than intended but I got busy and Archetype said he needed till Tuesday anyways. So here we go the case on sudgy forgive the lack of linked quotes I did this from the print screen.

I'm going to Vote: ashersky because of the reasons people have stated.  This is 50% RVS though.

This was after RVS, he sheeps but he calls it RVS.

Unvote.

The 50% of RVS was actually wanting to see ashersky's reaction.  His reaction seemed towny enough to me.

So here was why he called it RVS, he wanted to see ashersky's reaction, but a better way to get a REAL reaction is to actually vote for ash without telling him you're vote has little meaning.

Pat needs to come here.  Vote: patpatppat

One of many times he votes for a lurker, which as I know from playing scum is an easy vote to lay down as scum

The next quote is where he seems to get really scummy and this isn't just my thoughts many people had a similar thought regarding this post of sudgy's

Vote: Insomniac

Where he literally jumps onto my wagon with ZERO explanation for why he is doing so. I won't quote it but in his next post after getting ANY backlash for this post at all he immediately back pedals and explains why he voted for me. (because I was lurking remember how I said before thats an easy vote to throw down on someone) When a little bit more pressure comes he explains himself AGAIN AND unvotes.

Quote from: Eevee on March 19, 2013, 11:15:44 pm
Something about wanting to please as many people as possible just rubs me the wrong way. Like you're afraid of making waves.

Coming from you that's kind of funny...

Here he doesn't do anything to answer what Eevee directed at him merely redirects.

I'm a little bit more suspicious of Jimmmmm than Insomniac at the moment, but that might be because I've played with Jimmmmm before.

Your defense makes me even more suspicious...  Vote: Insomniac

These were subsequent sudgy posts, he never voted for Jimm and claimed he was suspicious of me for lurking so how can me showing up and posting make him more suspicious of lurking?

Quote from: Insomniac on March 22, 2013, 01:48:25 pm
Quote from: sudgy on March 22, 2013, 01:44:21 pm
Your defense makes me even more suspicious...  Vote: Insomniac

Cool beans. I still think you're scum but I will have to look at the hard information a bit more before I actually decide on anything

??  When did you think I was scum? I never saw you saying something like that before.

In one of my very few posts on day 1 I said this, how can you already have forgotten that, especially since I voted for you over it, this is trying to make me look scummy and a classic scum overreaction.


Here is a BIG scum slips if your into that thing

Looking at you quote, I see Kooshie (a townie) gave Jimmmmm a townread.  When I don't think many people could give him a townread.  This is enough to push me over to Vote: Jimmmmm.  This is L-1, nobody else vote until he's said some things.

Kooshie was scum not town, did you forget that and remember that Kooshie was on the same team as you?


A lot of his posts have been sheeping other people and small posts, some of them don't have ANY content (there was a post that consisted of ) and he has been voting for lurkers in a good portion of them too, that smells like artificial post inflating (however I read nothing into this as the town here has been quick to vote for anyone lurking at all so if I actually thought it would get people to unvote I might inflate my post count too whether I was town or scum)

And as soon as I announced I would be making this case he immediately posted saying he was going to prepare a defense, like he already knew what this case was going to be yet another classic scum overreaction.

I am already voting for him but I will do so again now Vote: Sudgy

I have post incoming (I'm making it after this one) where I look at Kooshie/Sudgy interactions.

[Insomniac]

The first quote is intentionally empty it was an editing thing I made it so that I could wrap all the things I was quoting sudgy as saying and I forgot to trim it before I posted it.

[Insomniac]

Kooshie Sudgy interactions.

From Sudgy there is two times that he mentions Kooshie after RVS, one actually neutral to me, the other looks scummy. (Neutral->Day 1, Scummy->Day 2)

This is turning into MXXI...  I'm starting to think either liopoil or kooshie is scum...  Right after liopoil makes a big case on kooshie...

This is before there is TOO much heat on kooshie and initially seems townie, but he could just be placing himself on the psuedo wagon in case kooshie did get lynched, I probably lean a bit of a townie read from this post, although I'm still fairly confident that sudgy is scum. After this he becomes the 4th vote on the wagon however two of the votes for kooshie came AFTER he voiced his pseudo support (there was only one vote liopoli at the time of this post).

Looking at you quote, I see Kooshie (a townie) gave Jimmmmm a townread.  When I don't think many people could give him a townread.  This is enough to push me over to Vote: Jimmmmm.  This is L-1, nobody else vote until he's said some things.

This is the one on day 2 where he gives Kooshie town status.


I was surprised to notice that Kooshie DIDN'T MENTION SUDGY AT ALL. However she didn't mention most players, here is a list of players she does mention.
Liopoli
Ashersky
Patpatpat
Jimmmmm
Yuma
Raerae
Jorbles
Mail-mi
Lekkit

many of them just in passing.

I suspect there is at least 3 scum in a game this size so I suspect one of them would have been mentioned and the other not mentioned but this is more of a hunch then anything really concrete.

[liopoil]

there is exactly four scum, three left. Robz said so at the beginning of the game.

yeah, sudgy has been sheeping a lot, but I did that in DS9 too... sheeping is generally slightly scummy, but I don't think it is enough by itself. However, you mention other things.

preparing a defense to a not-yet-made case is sillly... but also scummy, because scum knows more about what they've been saying, and what they did that might be scummy.

his posts are certainly lower content than most... but if we're talking LALL, we're talking lekkit...

His insom vote is probably the scummiest. Everyone who voted insom is suspicious. It seems to me like the easy mislynch. The fact that he was chosen over lekkit also makes me suspicious of lekkit even more. Plus, insom's latest posts, and his reaction to his wagon  read town to me.

So, I could vote for a few different people. At this late point in the day, I would be willing to vote:

lekkit, ashersky, Jimmmmm, sudgy, mail-mi, or no lynch. Also maybe Ozle, I haven't fully considered the case on him yet.

^^those are in order of preference by the way

[sudgy]

Most of the times when I voted for a lurker, I was trying to get them to post.  When I mentioned Kooshie giving jimmmmm a townread, I was saying, "Kooshie is scum.  She gave Jimmmmm a townread, when Jimmmmm wasn't that towny.  Jimmmmm might be scum because scum gave him a townread when he wasn't that towny."  All the rest of what you say is what I'm like as town.

Another thing to point out, in MXXI I was constantly suspected until I was mislynched at the end of the game.  Most people generally think I'm scummy.  Go ahead and lynch me (not now, we need to end this day), but you'll just be wasting a valuable mislynch.

[sudgy]

Also, I haven't been able to say much because I've been fairly busy recently.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay, insom thank you great post. I do agree sudgy is scummy and I believe I made a case on him earlier but there was a reason I dropped it, I will go back and check. In the mean time please let me know what you think of Jimm.

In case it matters I almost certainly won't be pursuing an insom lynch today. This is the type of thin someone comes in and post when they are town as sorry about being gone. They do not constantly apologize and still never post anything helpful.

Insom one more thing just a list of your reads town - scum would be nice.

[Jorbles]

jorbles! we need to end the day. Are you willing to do it now?

I assume someone already pointed this out, but you've already got my vote.

[liopoil]

oh wow, did not notice that

[Jorbles]

I'm going to read some of the beefier posts in a bit, but right now I've got to get to work for the next hour or so.

[ashersky]

I liked mcmc's contributions overnight.

Ozle, the issue isn't switching to Kooshie. It's the deflecting before switching when she's at L-1.  That's a classic scum tell, when you see your teammate is the imminent lynch and switch to gain towncred.

Also, in retrospect, given Kooshie WAS scum, it was an extremely good case.  It was 100% correct.

[ashersky]

I could switch to sudgy, if that got going.  Insom's case on him is better than a Jimmmmm lynch.

If you all think Jimmmmm is scum willing to self lynch for town, call his bluff.  No way scum waits this long to self hammer if there's reason for it.

[Insomniac]

Okay, insom thank you great post. I do agree sudgy is scummy and I believe I made a case on him earlier but there was a reason I dropped it, I will go back and check. In the mean time please let me know what you think of Jimm.

In case it matters I almost certainly won't be pursuing an insom lynch today. This is the type of thin someone comes in and post when they are town as sorry about being gone. They do not constantly apologize and still never post anything helpful.

Insom one more thing just a list of your reads town - scum would be nice.

I lean town on Jimmm. He doesn't have much content despite his larger post count than me but I lean town because he map claimed and stated he would self hammer (though he didn't)

Aside from Sudgy as scum and Yuma as town I don't have a strong read on many people right now and as such most of you are "slightly scummy"

Yuma is town because there is no way scum yuma would have on numerous occasions stood against my lynch when it would have been so easy to just let it happen.

[Ozle]

I liked mcmc's contributions overnight.

Ozle, the issue isn't switching to Kooshie. It's the deflecting before switching when she's at L-1.  That's a classic scum tell, when you see your teammate is the imminent lynch and switch to gain towncred.

Also, in retrospect, given Kooshie WAS scum, it was an extremely good case.  It was 100% correct.

Again, i dispute the word deflecting.

I call it 'giving reads'

Would you prefer people only talked about the current lynch all the time?

And no, it wasnt an extremely GOOD case, it was a correct case, not a good one. I bet you ant even explain to me what the case was without looking back!

You keep insiting it was a strong case and a good case when it clearly wasn't and the only person who actually ever gave an actual case was liopoil

I could pick one person at random, say they are scum because my nan told me so. If they turn out to be scum, does that make it a good read? Of course not. Just beause it was right does not make it good or strong.

You keep saying deflecting, again i say i was giving reads.

Why would you want to limit my views on other people?
Is it because one of those other people is your scumbuddies? Because im struggling to see a reason why you would not want to hear my reads through the day?

Ozle, the issue isn't switching to Kooshie. It's the deflecting before switching when she's at L-1.  That's a classic scum tell, when you see your teammate is the imminent lynch and switch to gain towncred.

So wait, the switching is the scum tell, but my switching isnt the issue?

Make your mind up!

Is anybody else reading this and thinks it sounds like Ashersky is clutching at straws?

Seriosuly, no wonder you always get mislynched if this is you 'town' play.

Has anyone else seen Ashersky play like this in a game? Was he scum there?

[ashersky]

Yuma's still here, right?

vote: ashersky

That should get Jimmmmm back to L-2.

[Ozle]

Yuma's still here, right?

vote: ashersky

That should get Jimmmmm back to L-2.

Could you explain what your town read is on jimmmm for me?

[liopoil]

don't fall for it Yuma, it's a trap! he's manipulating you!

actually, I would prefer to lynch ashersky over Jimmmmmm...

[Ozle]

Yuma's still here, right?

vote: ashersky

That should get Jimmmmm back to L-2.

And to be honest, i'd be happy to have an Ashersky lynch going if people think it will actually end up lynching you, i just dont want to waste another week and then end up back here again.

Would people be willing to re-read ashersky to give a town/scum read?

[Ozle]

Also ashersky, i noticed you didnt answer my questions raised after i rebutted yours.

Just answered with a self vote

[liopoil]

scumread on ashersky, would vote if I thought the lynch could happen. though, it'd be a lot easier to lynch him if he keeps his vote on himself...