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Author Topic: Good second cards for Jack BM  (Read 3676 times)

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Markov Chain

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Good second cards for Jack BM
« on: February 20, 2013, 11:48:44 pm »
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If you open Jack/Silver for Big Money, you'll usually want to get a second Jack.  What other terminal might you buy instead of the second Jack, if you don't need Jack for defense?  Courtyard is obvious, and Mandarin also looks good for the same reason; you can avoid collisions and put back excess coins.  (And then there are Wharf and Margrave, which are great cards but usually indicate that engines will do better.)

I had a great Jack game in which my second action was Oracle.  I bought Gold with $6 on turn 3, and Oracle with $3 as Jack trashed one Estate on turn 4.  Oracle served me well in managing the exact money distribution (in the same way Courtyard does), and the attack from Oracle was effective against two engine-building opponents.  Also, Oracle was the only attack, so Jack wasn't needed for its defensive value; neither opponent bought one.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Good second cards for Jack BM
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2013, 12:24:39 am »
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http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2634.msg41729#msg41729
Jack+almost anything beats pure jack.

You can try it out in the simulator. Take any of the following bots, and add a buy rule for 1-2 Jacks ahead of Silver, and you’ll get something that beats the Jack bot: Bank, Bazaar, Cartographer, Council Room, Duke, Embassy, Explorer, Festival, Goons, Harem, Inn, Laboratory, Library, Merchant Ship, Nobles, Rabble, Royal Seal, Stables, Stash, Torturer, Vault, Venture. Note that this is not a complete list of things that work better with Jack -- in fact, it’s nearly trivial to create several more, including Ill-Gotten Gains, Monument, Envoy, Smithy, Tournament, and Caravan, not to mention the cards that beat Jack in single-action decks listed in (4) -- it’s just meant to show that it’s not hard to find something that beats DoubleJack. 

The important idea to understand is that Jack is a good opener for money-heavy strategies. Pure Big Money is one such strategy, but it’s rarely the best one. You’re better off taking a stronger money-heavy strategy and adding a Jack opening (and potentially a second Jack if you have actions to spare).

Additionally, there are a bunch of other cheap support cards you can add, as discussed in this thread, which includes bots for Lighthouse, Fishing Village, Oasis, Scheme, Warehouse, and Spice Merchant.

Really, I'd call what you were doing "Oracle BM with a Jack opening". Jack is a very good opener for BM strategies, but it's a marginal mid-game card at best. Oracle BM is a decent terminal draw BM strategy, and a Jack opening can upgrade "decent" BM strategies (and even moderately bad ones) to "good".
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qmech

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Re: Good second cards for Jack BM
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2013, 03:27:31 am »
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And don't underrate Wharf/BM: it's very strong, and frequently faster than any engine you could build with the same pieces.
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Davio

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Re: Good second cards for Jack BM
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2013, 03:39:03 am »
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I think there's a decent amount of cards that fit this description.

Often I use Jack simply to replace my Estates with Silvers after which I give other terminals a higher priority if they collide.
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DG

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Re: Good second cards for Jack BM
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2013, 08:57:34 am »
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Quote
If you open Jack/Silver for Big Money, you'll usually want to get a second Jack.

Not really. I think you should always look to the 5 cost cards in the kingdom so jack+markets, jack+witch, jack+margrave, jack+merchant ship, etc only need a second jack if the draws push you that way. Sound money strategies like jack+smithy and jack+monument will be stronger without a second jack too.
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Markov Chain

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Re: Good second cards for Jack BM
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2013, 09:15:08 pm »
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Quote
If you open Jack/Silver for Big Money, you'll usually want to get a second Jack.

Not really. I think you should always look to the 5 cost cards in the kingdom so jack+markets, jack+witch, jack+margrave, jack+merchant ship, etc only need a second jack if the draws push you that way. Sound money strategies like jack+smithy and jack+monument will be stronger without a second jack too.

The reason I didn't do this in the actual game is that I never had $5.  There were good $5s (Library, Treasury, Lab), but I had either $3 or at least $6 every turn until it was Duchy time, so I wound up pure Big Money against the two engines.
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Davio

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Re: Good second cards for Jack BM
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2013, 05:16:59 am »
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You could consider a single Library over a Gold, could be good!
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jomini

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Re: Good second cards for Jack BM
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2013, 07:41:39 pm »
+1

After you trash the estates, Jack is pretty much "gain a silver, +1 or 2 coin". Yeah I know spy-effect, but until you green it isn't that useful. Without +action you get slightly above the average coin in your deck. We have a very similar card - Squire and it costs 2 with some sweet other options (like -  it's a village) and a very strong on trash effect. This tells me that buying Jack as a slightly more money, lower versatility Squire is pretty bad. But what about terminal draw? Well you can play terminal draw just fine with 3 dead estates, a sometimes dead Jack isn't that bad. Would I give up a free silver to get triple the coin payout? Why yes I would.

This is why I laugh when people say Jack is bad for engines. If your engine needs Silver, it generally needs Jack. Trade your 3 Estates for 3 Silvers (you are going engine, they will line up in not too long), now you have much better odds of drawing engine components AND you don't have to waste 3 coin buys on Silvers when you could be buying engine components (like Village, Warehouse, Herbalist, etc.) instead; as a bonus your buying power doesn't drop. Yeah, there are stronger 4's to open for engines (e.g. Baron) ... but Jack is quite nice for engines that need Silver.
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crazyrunnerguy

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Re: Good second cards for Jack BM
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2013, 09:42:55 pm »
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And don't underrate Wharf/BM: it's very strong, and frequently faster than any engine you could build with the same pieces.
The more I play the more I appreciate Wharf. Add a village, even a generic one, and you're solid.
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popsofctown

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Re: Good second cards for Jack BM
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2013, 06:14:00 pm »
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You're really missing the point of the post you quoted.
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shark_bait

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Re: Good second cards for Jack BM
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2013, 06:23:48 pm »
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Consider JoaT/Hamlet or JoaT/Cellar.  They are cheap, non-terminal and pair well with JoaT.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 06:43:03 pm by shark_bait »
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popsofctown

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Re: Good second cards for Jack BM
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2013, 06:42:09 pm »
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Hamlet is not terminal, and neither is Cellar.
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shark_bait

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Re: Good second cards for Jack BM
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2013, 06:43:37 pm »
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Hamlet is not terminal, and neither is Cellar.

Oops, fixed it now.  You guys all knew what I meant anyways.  ;)
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Kahryl

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Re: Good second cards for Jack BM
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2013, 10:43:07 am »
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I've had really good experiences with JoAT/Inn. It just fits so neatly. You can pretty much spend all your $ from 3-6 every time.
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