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Author Topic: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...  (Read 66148 times)

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Jack Rudd

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #100 on: September 27, 2011, 11:24:26 am »
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Bad terminology alert! Bribery refers to "your opponent". This is not well-defined for a game with more than two players.
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ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #101 on: September 27, 2011, 11:37:21 am »
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Yes, I want it to apply to just one opponent, not "all other players". I guess it should read, "choose an opponent", or "opponent to your left" something like that. Thanks for pointing that out. It is meant to key off just one opponent though, even in games with more than 2 players.
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Buggz

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #102 on: September 27, 2011, 12:05:46 pm »
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In that case, use a specific one (the player to your left/right) to avoid introducing politics.
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ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #103 on: September 27, 2011, 12:48:25 pm »
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Got it thanks, at first thought I wanted it to be "choose an opponent", not for politics, but so you could punish the opponent who was furthest ahead, but I see your point about collusion and forced it to be your opponent on your left:

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chwhite

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #104 on: September 27, 2011, 12:58:56 pm »
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I liked the old Bailey, actually.  The early trashing is just too powerful, and I am wholly unconvinced that +Action on a Reaction is in any way problematic: Lighthouse doesn't break the game even when you can play it every turn.  Sure, it's going to be stronger than Moat 95 percent of the time- so what?

Just watch as Hinterlands comes with a cantrip Reaction (remember, there are three of them!) and makes all our "you can't spam Reactions!" talk look silly.  Sort of like how everyone once thought that a 7-cost card would break the game.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 01:01:06 pm by chwhite »
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rinkworks

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #105 on: September 27, 2011, 01:19:05 pm »
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To be clear, it's not that I think a cantrip reaction is bad so much as that I think a cantrip Moat-like reaction is bad.  It's important to consider what the reaction effect is, just like it's important to consider what the effect of a normal action card is when deciding if it's good or bad as a cantrip.  I never want to see a cantrip Mountebank, for example, but a cantrip Upgrade is (obviously) fine.

Lighthouse is okay because it doesn't draw cards.  You can load up on Lighthouses and spam them, yes, but at a certain point you're doing your deck more harm than the protection from attacks is worth.  Were Lighthouse to also draw a card, though, it would be a world of difference.  To illustrate the power increase, consider how much better Peddler (cantrip +$1) is than Copper (essentially a non-terminal +$1 that consumes a card slot).

For Bailey, removing the +Action is one fix, but removing the +Card would have sufficed as well -- at least insofar as that particular problem goes.  I thought removing the +Action was the better option, but the point is very negotiable.

Edit:  Rereading my custom card guide, I see that I did indeed complain of "non-terminal reactions," although the text itself used drawing non-terminals to illustrate the problem.  I'll reword this section to be clearer.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 01:23:16 pm by rinkworks »
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ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #106 on: September 27, 2011, 01:33:45 pm »
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Interesting that you consider the early trashing too powerful though. I would agree, I put it in there, because I love density and tend to gravitate to cards that help me trash my deck.

What do you think of this? I think I'll keep the current choices, but just limit the choice to just one. +1 Buy or +1 Card or Trash one card. I agree this still makes it a great utility card, and becomes useful (if not spectacularly useful) at all stages of the game. A mild trasher early in the game, or an additional buy late, during the middle stages the reaction power and just fishing for that next card in your deck has utility, without burning the opponent's barn down.

I'd pick it over Moat of course, which perhaps demonstrates it still has too much juice, even if it has just one of the three options.

rink, I'll reread your section on reaction cards, as I am still clearly struggling with a strong, but well-balanced reaction card worth 2 points. I wanted one with options, that fully defended the attack, that's the gimmick I'm looking for, but clearly the options I choose are too strong. I really wanted a Pawn/Moat hybrid, but I keep overreaching for it.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #107 on: September 27, 2011, 01:55:07 pm »
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Interesting that you consider the early trashing too powerful though. I would agree, I put it in there, because I love density and tend to gravitate to cards that help me trash my deck.

What do you think of this? I think I'll keep the current choices, but just limit the choice to just one. +1 Buy or +1 Card or Trash one card. I agree this still makes it a great utility card, and becomes useful (if not spectacularly useful) at all stages of the game. A mild trasher early in the game, or an additional buy late, during the middle stages the reaction power and just fishing for that next card in your deck has utility, without burning the opponent's barn down.

I'd pick it over Moat of course, which perhaps demonstrates it still has too much juice, even if it has just one of the three options.

rink, I'll reread your section on reaction cards, as I am still clearly struggling with a strong, but well-balanced reaction card worth 2 points. I wanted one with options, that fully defended the attack, that's the gimmick I'm looking for, but clearly the options I choose are too strong. I really wanted a Pawn/Moat hybrid, but I keep overreaching for it.

I think it's probably okay if you just make it so that you can't pick more than one of the options. Then it's really on a similar level with moat.

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #108 on: September 27, 2011, 04:28:23 pm »
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A couple of old problems which you need to fix. The first, changing the wording of villa from gaining the number of cards discarded to drawing them, is absolutely vital. As it is now, any time you have villa with a victory card, you can discard two cards to gain two provinces. Or colonies. Or whatever it is that's most valuable. The game will be over in 8 turns or something crazy like that. Maybe less. On a regular basis. That wording is huge.

Other problem is that I'm still convinced that wooden bridge is way overpowered. Honestly, without the cost reduction, it's probably not great, but printable. And it's going to be very, very easy to get something set up to buy a whole bunch of $1 provinces in one go.

ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #109 on: September 27, 2011, 04:30:58 pm »
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Going to roll with the choice of one on the card for now and move it to the beta thread later today.

FYI, I've moved cards that generally passed peer review over to this thread to keep the discussion (and the OP) focused on cards that still need tweaks and review before I proceed to test. I will be play testing soon (as I've finally got a decent set of cards peer reviewed to test with). My wife's agreed to play test for me. I will also play test solo, using algorithms to buy/test. I'll be blending with base set for almost all test cases until I have 25 cards, then I'll randomize the 25 in the set and test intra-set.

WW, going to reword Villa as you suggested, but leave Wooden Bridge as it is, and see if it can be broken in play testing. I think the adjustment I am considering is removing +1 Action.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 04:34:04 pm by ChaosRed »
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ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #110 on: September 28, 2011, 11:40:20 am »
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Let's see if we can get some final comments/approval for the three cards still up for peer review.  If I can tomorrow, I'll post three more of the 4-Cost cards in the set for discussion. You can click each card for a larger version if you have a hard time reading the text.






I changed Bailey to just one choice, based on WW's feedback. It becomes a pretty good defender of Curse attacks, stopping the imminent attack and then possibly purging a Curse in your hand from a previously successful attack.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 03:41:16 pm by ChaosRed »
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ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #111 on: September 29, 2011, 12:53:07 am »
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Okay moved the three card s in the above post to the beta stage thread. Here are two more new cards for you to rip into:

Fool's Choice


Fool's Choice is hackneyed take on a beloved Magic card, that I also adapted for another game at Wizards when I did some card development for them.

I am curious to see if you feel I've costed it right. I do like the mechanic, even if it produces crowded text on the card.

Church Bell


Church Bell and Fool's Choice are kind of similar in what they provide. This is the last of these kind of cards at this cost point in the expansion. I like what this card does, but I am also unsure of the cost.
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ratxt1

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #112 on: September 29, 2011, 10:56:31 am »
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church bell is cool but way to powerful at 4 and should be priced at 5 heres why

chapel trashes four cards and ruins your hand and is considered one of the better opening buys
if you buy this in the opening the first time you use it your either going to trash four cards and still keep your hand or trash 3 cards and get another good card in your hand effectivly making it probably the best early trasher in the game. even if you changed it into drawing 3 cards it's still probably better than masquerade in how it trashes.

probably how id change it is rase it to 5 and lower it to 3 cards drawn. if you want to keep it at 4 you'd probably have to have lower it to 2 cards drawn
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rinkworks

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #113 on: September 29, 2011, 11:14:41 am »
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Fool's Choice is a really, really intriguing idea, but the implementation bothers me.  I thought about it for a while this morning before realizing why.  I think it comes down to complexity -- complexity of the sort that will result in AP, both on the part of the player and on the part of the opponent sorting the piles.

Basically, the player of the card has two options to pick between:  Put the "good" pile in hand and the "bad" pile in the discard, or put the "good" pile in the discard and the "bad" pile in the trash.  See, even if the player is able to quickly determine which pile is the "good" pile, that doesn't necessarily also tell him anything about where either of the piles should go.  But it might not even be that simple, because the ideal place for victory cards would be in the discard pile, and if that part of the decision is made easily, it's still not clear merely by process of elimination where the other pile should go.  Complicating the picture is that this decision may need to be made differently based on whether or not the player has any spare actions left, allowing him to play any of the action cards he might pull into his hand, or if they'd be dead actions at that point.  It's a slow decision and one that requires weighing a few different factors.

Moreover, if the decision for the player is going to be slow and complicated, this goes exponentially so for the opponent, who, if he is to play optimally, must anticipate what the player's decision will be for all ways that the four cards may be separated into piles.

So here's what I suggest as a way to simplify the idea while hopefully retaining its gameplay value:

Fool's Choice
$4 - Action
+$2
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck.  The player to your left separates them into two piles [of at least one card each?].  Discard one of the piles and put the other on top of your deck in any order.

That's a much simpler decision.  Good pile goes on deck.  Bad pile gets discarded.  Simple.  Also, by not having "in hand" be one of the destinations, considerations of how many actions the player has left don't muddy the waters.  I threw on a +$2 just so the player would get something on the present turn for playing the card (see also: Navigator), but this could be any number of alternative benefits instead.

If you're stuck on keeping it as a trasher of some sort, then I suggest this as a slightly more complex but still fairly simple version:

Fool's Choice
$4 - Action
+$2
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck.  The player to your left separates them into two piles [of at least one card each?].  Discard or trash one of the piles and put the other on top of your deck in any order.

As in your original, one of the piles gets a choice of destination, but at least it's clear, once one of the piles is identified as the "good" pile, where it will go.  Thus, the decision of what to do with the "bad" pile can be made without having to take quite as many other factors into account.

Anyway, I think both of my versions (with the +$2 or comparable boon for the present turn) are $4 cards unless playtesting says otherwise.  I suppose that means your version is probably a $4 card as well, although it's a lot harder to evaluate its power level at a glance.

---

Church Bell...kind of dubious about this one.  It seems very situational, as sometimes cleaning out $2- cards (Estates, Coppers, Curses, unneeded Chapels) is nice, sometimes (Pearl Diver, Pawn, Herbalist) close to neutral, and sometimes (still-needed Chapel, Hamlet, Lighthouse) devastating.  This situationality isn't necessary a bad thing; I'm just thinking it through.

Also, I'm unclear as to whether one is supposed to trash ALL cards costing $2 or less or just one of them.  I suppose just one of them, because if it trashed all of them it would be way overpowered for $4.  [Edit: As ratxt1 beat me to explaining, I see.]

Even just trashing one $2- card, though, it may need to go to $5.  Maybe not, but the reason I wonder is because of my experience with this village card, which also draws a few cards from your deck, puts one in hand, and discards the rest.  It turned out that that cherry-picked-cycling effect was vastly more powerful than I had anticipated, to the point where basically if I'm building any kind of village-based engine, that card, bar any of the official villages, is the best candidate for the job.

Now, your card is much weaker for not having any +actions, let alone 2.  But it makes up for that by having trashing instead.  And even though it only trashes one at a time, the cycling effect will cause it to be played more often -- almost doubly as often! -- which makes it a faster trasher than it first appears.

So if it were me, I'd probably start the playtesting at $5 and see how that felt.  But, also if it were me, I think I'd probably remove the cost restrictions.   That would make it more powerful still, but it would simplify the card quite a bit without changing its essential nature or potential.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 11:24:12 am by rinkworks »
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ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #114 on: September 29, 2011, 11:40:40 am »
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Your explanation for your concern over Fool's Choice is solid, the original Magic card (and the MLB Showdown card I designed around it), simply provides the choice of discarding one pile and keeping another, so I'll keep that choice only and remove the trashing option. (I tend to obsess over trashing, as you've probably noticed).

I figured Church Bell was over costed, If I keep the card draw to 3, then provide an option of trashing one and keeping one, this would seem balanced. You gain no cards at all (its card neutral), but you trigger a chance you draw a card you want to get rid of. So it would read...

Reveal the top 3 cards in your deck. You may trash one, if you do, choose one of the revealed cards and
put it in your hand, discard the rest.

In the case where you draw 3 cards you do not want to trash, you do not get to put a card in your hand.

It's still a strong card, but I can think of other cards at 4 that are stronger.

If you still feel that's too strong, I could change the option to put one in your hand, to "put on top of your deck"...

Reveal the top 3 cards in your deck. You may trash one, if you do, choose one of the revealed cards and put it in on top of your deck, discard the rest.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 11:45:12 am by ChaosRed »
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rinkworks

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #115 on: September 29, 2011, 12:00:34 pm »
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Reveal the top 3 cards in your deck. You may trash one, if you do, choose one of the revealed cards and put it in on top of your deck, discard the rest.

That's almost exactly a terminal Lookout.

Anyway, I don't have any specific suggestions along these lines.  There are lots of variations of this idea that can work (including some that already do:  Lookout, Navigator, Scout), and I suspect we'll see one or two more before the official series ends.  I'd say just pick what interests you the most and then cost it, rather than costing it first and trying to force its power level to conform.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 12:02:39 pm by rinkworks »
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ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #116 on: September 29, 2011, 12:05:11 pm »
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Yeah it is, and it isn't Terminal and it is only 3. Of course you MUST trash with Lookout, mine you have the option, but you must activate the option to gain a card. Looking at Lookout as a guide:

Reveal the top 3 cards in your deck. You may trash one, if you do, choose one of the revealed cards and put it in your hand, discard the rest.

I'll keep it terminal though, don't you think?
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chwhite

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #117 on: September 29, 2011, 12:13:05 pm »
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Church Bell is way way too powerful.  Just imagine ringing them on Turn 3.  Boom, that's a Chapel's worth of trashing plus you still can buy stuff AND you've triggered a reshuffle.  Just insane.

Love the idea behind Fool's Choice, though. 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 12:16:33 pm by chwhite »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #118 on: September 29, 2011, 12:14:23 pm »
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Yeah it is, and it isn't Terminal and it is only 3. Of course you MUST trash with Lookout, mine you have the option, but you must activate the option to gain a card. Looking at Lookout as a guide:

Reveal the top 3 cards in your deck. You may trash one, if you do, choose one of the revealed cards and put it in your hand, discard the rest.

I'll keep it terminal though, don't you think?

Please please please don't use the word 'gain' when you mean draw.
Card is probably possible, bit similar to lookout, and probably weaker than lookout, which isn't so strong already.

ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #119 on: September 29, 2011, 12:32:45 pm »
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It doesn't compare well to Lookout for sure. I guess it compares better if you draw 4 and wasn't terminal.

Originally, I wanted it to "ring", summoning some cards to your hand, trashing others, but it is too strong early the way it was originally written. I'll put it on the drawing board for now. I like the name and theme of the card, but yeah it needs work, thanks guys for your feedback. I think I am guilty of conceiving cards I wish I had in-game, without really thinking long enough about its value.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 12:35:59 pm by ChaosRed »
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ratxt1

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #120 on: September 29, 2011, 07:24:38 pm »
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i really like the idea of chruch bell in how its a trasher that helps your current hand there arn't many of these cards and i think there should be more of them. the problem is how you have it now i think it should be costed at 5 so that it dosn't become to strong of an opening buy. which is fine. i think you are a little to centered on keeping stuff the same cost when in reality the cost should be the think that changes the most. if you read about how donald x made throne room he says that late in the process he realized that after a point with throne room costing 3(as it currently costed) it just became too powerful to mass up towwards the late game with plus buys. so what did he do he didn't change the card so that it was fine at strength three he just kept the simpleness of the card and raised it to cost 4. for this card i think you should do the same
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ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #121 on: September 29, 2011, 08:24:09 pm »
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rat, excellent advice thank you. I want the costing structure to mirror base set exactly, so I will take your advice on Church Bell, and cost it at 5 and tone down the power a little, as others have suggested. What this means is, it goes on the drawing board, until I get all the 4-cost completed.

On that note, I took rink's advice and removed the trashing option from Fool's Choice. It significantly reduces the intrigue of the card, but should shorten the decision making the opponent must make which slows down the game. I will also say, that in Magic and other games where this power is common, you eventually get good at creating the piles. This card would have supplemental rule clarification (like other cards sometimes do), which would explain that piles do not have to have equal number of cards, there must be at least one card in the pile (or it isn't pile)...but there are times you may want the player to pay for that Goon card by discarding the other 3 (say a Lab, and two Silver).  Taking the trashing option out, really removes the desire to create a pile with nothing in it anyway, so it helps clarify the card, even if it does reduce the card's utility.

In Magic the card is useful, as you have a superb chance of getting that one card you need or want, at the small price of acquiring (note I did not use the word "gain" this time) one you don't want. The pain in Fool's Choice is seeing two of the card you want drawn...knowing one is going to the discard pile. But hey, that's what reshuffle cards are for right?

Which brings up another question, has anyone ever designed a non-terminal reshuffler, what would such a card cost do you think?

Anyway, here's the updated card:



As "Church Bell" is on the drawing board (it will come back when I reveal the 5-cost cards), here's another 4-point card for you to trash. This is just a nerfed Feast (it can only feast to a Victory), that adds a Duration of +2, if you buy a Victory card. I see the card has possible appeal, but only on certain boards and/or stages of the game. It's not an exciting card at all, but I am curious to see if you feel its costed right, or is just so dull it needs something more to it.


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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #122 on: September 29, 2011, 08:47:11 pm »
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Land Grab doesn't work. When it goes to the trash, the 'lose track' rule comes into play, and you'll not get it's other effect.

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #123 on: September 29, 2011, 08:56:31 pm »
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Suggested rewording for Land Grab:

This turn, gain a victory card costing $5 or less. If you buy a victory card this turn, then next turn, +2$
During next turn's clean-up phase, trash this card.
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

ChaosRed

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Re: A Noob's Expansion - Come Rip it Apart...
« Reply #124 on: September 29, 2011, 11:41:25 pm »
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Yes, thank you for the rewording. Makes much more sense.
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