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[tolenmar]

Just got my order of all five (current) Promo cards.  It was an enjoyable game throwing all of them in there, but man, using black market with an entire set takes a lot of time to set up and take down again.

I will likely limit the number of cards or sets available when we play with it again, just to speed things up.  The only one we didn't buy was stash, and I think it's because no one (I certainly didn't) wanted to give away any of that information. I was doing well enough that I could afford to trash a couple of gold's to buy mints.  That was fun, not that it had much to do with Black Market.

How do you guys limit the number of cards in Black Market?

[shark_bait]

I use 25 cards for it, chosen from the randomizer deck.  It gives away a little information due to the blue back, but it aids simplicity for set up and take down.  Unbought cards get placed at the bottom of the deck.

[LastFootnote]

If I recall correctly, Donald X. used a copy of each card (with a normal back) for each set's randomizer deck. So for Black Market, he'd just use the deck of a full-size set that wasn't in play. So for him it was painless to set up. For the rest of us who use the blue-backed randomizers or electronic randomizers, it's a big hassle.

[sudgy]

I don't have it yet, but I'm going to take the randomizer deck and use that as the Black Market deck, and when someone buys a card, I'll set it aside and pull the one card from the appropriate expansion and they gain that instead of the randomizer.

[tolenmar]

You know, that's not  half bad idea there, sudgy.

My son and I were just facepalming over how obvious that answer is...

[eHalcyon]

But is there any particular reason why you are using the blue-backed randomizers?  It just seems like a much more elegant solution to take one regular-backed card from each stack to make the randomizer/black market deck.

[sudgy]

But is there any particular reason why you are using the blue-backed randomizers?  It just seems like a much more elegant solution to take one regular-backed card from each stack to make the randomizer/black market deck.

I already have all the randomizers out, and it would be a pain to take one card from each card when they aren't all used.

[eHalcyon]

I mean, you could remove the randomizers entirely.  Take one regular card from all stacks and ALWAYS keep them separate in your storage solution.  When you are setting up a game:

Deal out 10 cards from this new randomizer deck.
Go into the boxes and grab the other 9 cards for each random card.
If Black Market is in, use the rest of the (regular-backed) randomizer deck as the BM deck.
Play the game.
After the game, return one of each card to the randomizer deck.
Return the stacks of 9 to the boxes.

Yeah it might take a smidgen of work to grab all the regular cards... but it's one-time setup and then you're done forever.  The special blue-backed randomizers are pointless if you do it this way.

A reason you might not do this is if you prefer using a randomizer app with constraints or something.  But if you always play full random, this would be the easiest method.

[liopoil]

WOAH. I've never thought of that. That's an amazing idea. So what's the point of the randomizer cards then? I want to use them for something...

[eHalcyon]

It's the setup that LastFootnote described (though in less detail) above.  And yeah, I think it's a good idea.

[shMerker]

WOAH. I've never thought of that. That's an amazing idea. So what's the point of the randomizer cards then? I want to use them for something...

The rulebook for base refers to them as placeholders and included them even for the non-kingdom cards, something that the expansions don't do. I think the idea was to have them on the table as a reminder of what was in any piles that had already run out. From my experience this is a bad idea though. It leads to confusion as people forget that they aren't supposed to gain the last card in the pile. I think it would have helped if there was some distinguishing mark on the front of the cards.

What I do like to use them for is to hand the ones that are in the kingdom to a new player to use as a reference so that they don't have to awkwardly lean over the supplies to find out what everything is.

[sudgy]

I always use the randomizers to randomize the cards anyway, so it wouldn't be hard for me.

[Eran of Arcadia]

I don't have it yet, but I'm going to take the randomizer deck and use that as the Black Market deck, and when someone buys a card, I'll set it aside and pull the one card from the appropriate expansion and they gain that instead of the randomizer.

That's exactly what we do.

[Insomniac]

I have an app that randomizes the board so that I don't have to, and if the board has black market it will actually make black market and you can flip through using the phone.

So we use the phone to look at whats available when we need to (it sorts it properly cards not purchased get returned to the bottom) and if someone buys a card we retrieve the card from the appropriate set.

[Blueswan]

I mean, you could remove the randomizers entirely.  Take one regular card from all stacks and ALWAYS keep them separate in your storage solution.  When you are setting up a game:

Deal out 10 cards from this new randomizer deck.
Go into the boxes and grab the other 9 cards for each random card.
If Black Market is in, use the rest of the (regular-backed) randomizer deck as the BM deck.
Play the game.
After the game, return one of each card to the randomizer deck.
Return the stacks of 9 to the boxes.

Yeah it might take a smidgen of work to grab all the regular cards... but it's one-time setup and then you're done forever.  The special blue-backed randomizers are pointless if you do it this way.

A reason you might not do this is if you prefer using a randomizer app with constraints or something.  But if you always play full random, this would be the easiest method.

So simple, yet so brilliant. Thank you! 

[Kuildeous]

The rulebook for base refers to them as placeholders and included them even for the non-kingdom cards, something that the expansions don't do. I think the idea was to have them on the table as a reminder of what was in any piles that had already run out. From my experience this is a bad idea though. It leads to confusion as people forget that they aren't supposed to gain the last card in the pile.

It wasn't too confusing. When all we had was the base set (and then with the first couple of expansions), we used the "placeholder" cards. You turn them upside down, so if the last card of a stack is gained, then you have a Dominion back staring you in the face. If you see three Dominion backs on the table (aside from players' decks of course), then the game is over. This worked for Estates and Duchies as well. Technically, the Province placeholder wasn't really needed.

Then somewhere along the line, we learned (I think I read it somewhere) that the cards could be used to randomize your kingdom. I liked that idea, so I pulled all those placeholder cards. Instead of having a card at the bottom of the deck, we just grab some card and put it face-down in the pile that is bought out. Usually, it's from the trash, but a Copper is just as good. In fact, it'll more likely be Coppers since Dark Ages makes the contents of the trash more relevant. And if we get something like a Beggar or a Trader or a Tunnel or anything else that could contribute to a stack going empty when it traditionally doesn't, then we'll use some other card. After all, what are the odds that you have a kingdom where all three base treasures have the likelihood to run out? But if it happens, then there's either Shelters or excess Estates.

I'd probably be fine using the randomize deck for the Black Market just because I generally don't look at my deck, so I wouldn't even know if the next card would be a Black Market card or not. And if I know that I have Black Market, I'll very consciously look away from my deck while shuffling.