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[Robz888]

Ok here now. Done reading.

Scummish read on Axxle
Town on Eevee and Munchy

Neutral on everyone else,but leaning town on mcmc.

When I reread I did notice that no one mentiondd something: Scum have daychat.

In a blitz game a while ago, Robz, CF, and I quickhammered for the win, so I think we should keep this in mind and be extra careful with our votes.

Good catch.

Why town read on Eevee? He hasn't even said anything.

[TheMunch]

But Galz specifically asked me about participation, and the truthful answer is that at least for me, participation is NOT an indication of alignment. I mean, I really do think this is true, do you dispute it?

I see what you're doing and you know full well that wasn't what my argument was.

[Robz888]

But Galz specifically asked me about participation, and the truthful answer is that at least for me, participation is NOT an indication of alignment. I mean, I really do think this is true, do you dispute it?

I see what you're doing and you know full well that wasn't what my argument was.

What am I doing? Don't just stare at it, point it out.

[TheMunch]

But Galz specifically asked me about participation, and the truthful answer is that at least for me, participation is NOT an indication of alignment. I mean, I really do think this is true, do you dispute it?

I see what you're doing and you know full well that wasn't what my argument was.

What am I doing? Don't just stare at it, point it out.

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

[Archetype]

Ok here now. Done reading.

Scummish read on Axxle
Town on Eevee and Munchy

Neutral on everyone else,but leaning town on mcmc.

When I reread I did notice that no one mentiondd something: Scum have daychat.

In a blitz game a while ago, Robz, CF, and I quickhammered for the win, so I think we should keep this in mind and be extra careful with our votes.

Good catch.

Why town read on Eevee? He hasn't even said anything.

Something he said during my reread made him seem sort of town-ish to me. I'll go back and see what it was.

[Archetype]

I think that if the Fools do claim, it should be D2. I approve of them claiming, because odds are they'll be able to both use their powers. Then 1 will die, and we'll have an IC.

Of course, scum could still counterclaim. I'm wondering if they would, though, given theirs only 2 in the setup. I guess if they'll Bulletproof, they might as welll.

No, if the Fools claim, they should simply say 'I'm a fool' and not what power they chose. Wait for any counterclaims, and then claim which power they chose.

[Archetype]

Ok here now. Done reading.

Scummish read on Axxle
Town on Eevee and Munchy

Neutral on everyone else,but leaning town on mcmc.

When I reread I did notice that no one mentiondd something: Scum have daychat.

In a blitz game a while ago, Robz, CF, and I quickhammered for the win, so I think we should keep this in mind and be extra careful with our votes.

Good catch.

Why town read on Eevee? He hasn't even said anything.

Something he said during my reread made him seem sort of town-ish to me. I'll go back and see what it was.

Found what I was looking for.

Not really a certain post, but he's freely giving reads and buddying a bit. Reminds me of his behavior in Helsinki. It isn't my top townread though, Munch is. Mainly because of his denying of towncred. I guess it could still be a clever scum ploy to gain even more towncred by denying it.

[Galzria]

Let's have a look back at my content this game vs yours, shall we?

Please tell me what you think this is, I'm curious.

You've literally said you've been holding back content this game.

I've contributed a fair deal more than you have, that's for sure.

Coming out of RVS claiming "he's scum" and then continuing to pressure people to vote ad nauseam is not "active and fruitful" participation. You've done no actual scum hunting - instead you've gone out of your way to artificially inflate your post count by repeating the same drivel over and over again. Furthermore, the actual claims that you have made (and there have been very, very few) are completely baseless and completely unfactual.

[Axxle]

Robz, what changed between these two posts?

I also have a scumread on Axxle. This is not the Axxle I'm used to, for some reason.

But you are wrong my brother. Axxle is almost certainly town. He's driving conversation! That's a very town thing to do, when like no one is saying anything.

[Jimmmmm]

I'm awake!

Permit me a little theory talk?

I think the point of this game is to create a setup in which it is disadvantageous for our IC variants to claim on day 1. As such I think they shouldn't claim except to save themselves.

From a Witch's point of view, bulletproof seems pointless, since if they are vig-attempted they're caught out anyway (although I like the flavour behind it - if you survive the test you're a Witch, if you die you're innocent). From a Fool's point of view, then, Cop seems utterly pointless, since the chance of getting scum result is really low, and a Town result is virtually meaningless. Which of course makes bulletproof slightly more attractive to a Witch because then they can at least try to argue their way out of it.

I actually think Neighbourizer is better than it's being given credit for. It's a great way for Fools to back up their claim if they are counter-claimed, or to set up a Masonry between the two Fools in the absence of counter-claims.

[TheMunch]

Robz, what changed between these two posts?

I also have a scumread on Axxle. This is not the Axxle I'm used to, for some reason.

But you are wrong my brother. Axxle is almost certainly town. He's driving conversation! That's a very town thing to do, when like no one is saying anything.

Can I vote Robz again?

[Axxle]

Let's have a look back at my content this game vs yours, shall we?

Please tell me what you think this is, I'm curious.

You've literally said you've been holding back content this game.

I've contributed a fair deal more than you have, that's for sure.

Coming out of RVS claiming "he's scum" and then continuing to pressure people to vote ad nauseam is not "active and fruitful" participation. You've done no actual scum hunting - instead you've gone out of your way to artificially inflate your post count by repeating the same drivel over and over again. Furthermore, the actual claims that you have made (and there have been very, very few) are completely baseless and completely unfactual.

Please point out specific posts, all I've seen is speculation on the setup, and your refusal to say anything on reads until everyone posts.

[TheMunch]

I'm awake!

Permit me a little theory talk?

I think the point of this game is to create a setup in which it is disadvantageous for our IC variants to claim on day 1. As such I think they shouldn't claim except to save themselves.

From a Witch's point of view, bulletproof seems pointless, since if they are vig-attempted they're caught out anyway (although I like the flavour behind it - if you survive the test you're a Witch, if you die you're innocent). From a Fool's point of view, then, Cop seems utterly pointless, since the chance of getting scum result is really low, and a Town result is virtually meaningless. Which of course makes bulletproof slightly more attractive to a Witch because then they can at least try to argue their way out of it.

I actually think Neighbourizer is better than it's being given credit for. It's a great way for Fools to back up their claim if they are counter-claimed, or to set up a Masonry between the two Fools in the absence of counter-claims.

This did a surprisingly good job of summing up all our theory talk in one post.  Points for Jimmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[Robz888]

Robz, what changed between these two posts?

I also have a scumread on Axxle. This is not the Axxle I'm used to, for some reason.

But you are wrong my brother. Axxle is almost certainly town. He's driving conversation! That's a very town thing to do, when like no one is saying anything.

I thought about what you posting a lot actually meant.

[Axxle]

Galz's posts consist of apathy toward the game, theory, and dismissal of the argument against him as not being a case.  Pretty anti town, and likely scum:

Complete apathy to the game for the first few posts:

Look, a new game.

I suppose I should actually take the time to read the setup. But I'm lazy and want coffee.

Haha no eevee that would be quite a long way to send vibes we live quite far away when we aren't at our parents house aka Christmas. But robz has let's say a "history" with witches...

NOW I'm interested.

(incidentally also the reason I voted Galz)

I actually never bothered to read it. I hadn't been planning on playing this game until the last minute, when Insomniac PM'd me asking me to join so he could launch it. /shrug

Preach to the choir more why don't you.  I also only replaced in since he asked me to, but still bothered to read the setup.

To each his own. I'll get around to it eventually here.

Then theory:

Why would the town PR's choose Neighborizer? Like... what does it really gain them?

Why would the town PR's choose Neighborizer? Like... what does it really gain them?

Well, at least they know the scum can't block it?

Yeah, but they've no idea if they find town or scum with it. So it's really quite pointless as far as I can tell.

Calling it right now:  Both Witches are investigative proof, Both fools are Vigs.

What are the odds of that happening?

My logic is this:  Witches got to discuss their roles and they could both pick the same role.  They are choosing between bulletproof and investigative proof.  The only thing that bulletproof saves witches from is getting shot by a Vig, and this is the only thing that could stop a vig shot by going through.  Thus, for bulletproof witches, Vig is just as good as a cop at catching scum.  So Investigative proof is better than bulletproof.

Given the assumption that Investigative proof is better than bulletproof, there is no reason for the fools to choose cop, so they choose vig (unless they know better than me how to use neighborizer as an investigative role, which is very possible.  I just dont konw how to use neighborizer I guess?).

I mean I dont KNOW thats whats actually going on wrt roles, but it makes sense to me that it could work out this way rather easily.

But then you can go all wine on it and say that the Witches know that both Fools will choose Vig, and so take bulletproof to be immune to that.

On the other hand, if a Vig shoots someone and they don't die, the vig can roleclaim knowing they shot at a Witch.

That's exactly his point, which I completely agree with. Because if a Vig shoots and BP Witch, it's as good as taking Cop and finding scum. So there would never be any reason for a PR to take Cop.

From the scum perspective, I slightly disagree with Munch. I think they would take BP, since they would know that it makes little sense for the PR's to choose cop. And even if the PR's DO choose Cop, the result is essentially the same. They're caught if shot, and they're caught if investigated. Being BP however, means that they don't die straight out if shot, so they at least get the chance to argue their case or claim the PR is lying scum.

Calling it right now:  Both Witches are investigative proof, Both fools are Vigs.

What are the odds of that happening?

My logic is this:  Witches got to discuss their roles and they could both pick the same role.  They are choosing between bulletproof and investigative proof.  The only thing that bulletproof saves witches from is getting shot by a Vig, and this is the only thing that could stop a vig shot by going through.  Thus, for bulletproof witches, Vig is just as good as a cop at catching scum.  So Investigative proof is better than bulletproof.

Given the assumption that Investigative proof is better than bulletproof, there is no reason for the fools to choose cop, so they choose vig (unless they know better than me how to use neighborizer as an investigative role, which is very possible.  I just dont konw how to use neighborizer I guess?).

I mean I dont KNOW thats whats actually going on wrt roles, but it makes sense to me that it could work out this way rather easily.

But then you can go all wine on it and say that the Witches know that both Fools will choose Vig, and so take bulletproof to be immune to that.

On the other hand, if a Vig shoots someone and they don't die, the vig can roleclaim knowing they shot at a Witch.

That's exactly his point, which I completely agree with. Because if a Vig shoots and BP Witch, it's as good as taking Cop and finding scum. So there would never be any reason for a PR to take Cop.

From the scum perspective, I slightly disagree with Munch. I think they would take BP, since they would know that it makes little sense for the PR's to choose cop. And even if the PR's DO choose Cop, the result is essentially the same. They're caught if shot, and they're caught if investigated. Being BP however, means that they don't die straight out if shot, so they at least get the chance to argue their case or claim the PR is lying scum.

Addendum:

The only reason a PR would take Cop over Vig, is if they weren't confident in their ability to find scum, and would rather find and confirm a town player then worry about killing a town player. In this case, it's a guess for the scum as to if they want to risk being killed by a Vig, or cleared by a Cop (Cops get a "town" result on an investigative immune scum, right? Not "No Result", which would essentially be "scum"?).

B) Investigate Proof - Any attempt to investigate you will return village aligned.

Yeah, exactly.

Then a complete dismissal of my accusation:

And I really am not really joking right now, I think it's the most likely thing at the moment, although later that probably will change.

What on earth are you basing this on? Munch seems like himself, Galzria hasn't done anything (or is that the case, posting without contributing.. one hour after the game started?), I don't know. Not trying to call the dogs on you though, bold play like this is usually town I think. I've never been good at reading Axxle though.

Galz not doing anything except setup speculation still really sets off alarm bells.  Munch overreacting to one other vote on Galz seems scumbuddyish.

:eyeroll:

More theory:

I'm just going to throw this out here... because things like this have served us okay in the past... The other way to play this is to have the Fools claim right now, maybe? They won't get counterclaimed (I don't think...), so then we have are ICs. Whichever one is still alive tomorrow can take his shot or do his investigation or whatever tomorrow (hell, if one of them is a neighborizer, thy can actually get their qt chat going!). And we just play this like any of ash's games.

Anybody see a point in doing that?

I don't think it's necessary.

Let's look at a (generally) worst case here:

We lynch town D1 (I assume not a fool lynch, since any fool or scum claiming fool will not get lynched).
Scum NK a fool N1 (through luck, or because they target a claimed fool due to D1).

Left:

2 scum
1 fool
4 VT

D2, the 2nd fool claims.

If a scum counterclaims, then it's likely that they're BP (since they wouldn't risk counter-claiming unless they knew they could survive a Vig-Fool). Assume at this point we lynch wrong. N2, scum kill a VT.

Left:

2 scum (1 known)
3 VT

We lynch the known scum, and they NK a VT...

Left:

1 scum
2 VT

On D2, if the Fool doesn't get counter-claimed, then he's an IC for the day. Worst case is he leads the town to a VT lynch, and gets NK'd, and then it's 3 VT vs 2 Scum - classic lylo.

My point is, I think that choosing to not claim now doesn't present a situation where scum can counter-claim their way to a win D2 (which is different from most blitz games).

Long answer short:

I do not think that our Fool's should claim.

Pointing out lurkers and refusal to play:

Galz, what are your reads? You post a lot of theory, but nothing about the players in this game specifically.

When people post more, I'll tell you. So far Robz has posted 3 times. mcmc has posted 3 times. Others have posted less (Archetype/Jimmm - although maybe I just missed them). When people start talking more, I'll form more solid opinions. I'm not going to state my thoughts on anybody until that time, as I really don't want to give scum the opportunity to come in and play towards my reads.

More theory:

Is there ever a reason for a townie to lie to the town?

Some would say no.

Indeed. Almost every time a townie has lied to the town, it's blown up in their face.

Lying about having a scum read on someone and backing it up with a vote to catch scum trying to quickhammer is definitely a useful tool for an IC in most blitz setups.

I think the question was more a reference to "Would a VT in this setup ever have anything at all to gain by fake-claiming (lying) about being a Fool?"

Finally some semblance of scumhunting:

Robz, last time you called someone out for "not participating" was when you yourself were under participating in Pokemon.

Let's have a look back at my content this game vs yours, shall we?

And then this:

Let's have a look back at my content this game vs yours, shall we?

Please tell me what you think this is, I'm curious.

You've literally said you've been holding back content this game.

I've contributed a fair deal more than you have, that's for sure.

Coming out of RVS claiming "he's scum" and then continuing to pressure people to vote ad nauseam is not "active and fruitful" participation. You've done no actual scum hunting - instead you've gone out of your way to artificially inflate your post count by repeating the same drivel over and over again. Furthermore, the actual claims that you have made (and there have been very, very few) are completely baseless and completely unfactual.

[Galzria]

Robz, what changed between these two posts?

I also have a scumread on Axxle. This is not the Axxle I'm used to, for some reason.

But you are wrong my brother. Axxle is almost certainly town. He's driving conversation! That's a very town thing to do, when like no one is saying anything.

I thought about what you posting a lot actually meant.

If he were making posts that contained more than the same generic thought over and over and over, there might be some merit to that. Instead he's inflating his post count without saying anything of value.

[Axxle]

Robz, what changed between these two posts?

I also have a scumread on Axxle. This is not the Axxle I'm used to, for some reason.

But you are wrong my brother. Axxle is almost certainly town. He's driving conversation! That's a very town thing to do, when like no one is saying anything.

I thought about what you posting a lot actually meant.

Interesting reaction... but what does it mean?

[Robz888]

Jack Skellington, right?

[Axxle]

Robz, what changed between these two posts?

I also have a scumread on Axxle. This is not the Axxle I'm used to, for some reason.

But you are wrong my brother. Axxle is almost certainly town. He's driving conversation! That's a very town thing to do, when like no one is saying anything.

I thought about what you posting a lot actually meant.

If he were making posts that contained more than the same generic thought over and over and over, there might be some merit to that. Instead he's inflating his post count without saying anything of value.

Well it's a true thought. You say you've been contributing but you can't come up with examples.

[Axxle]

Jack Skellington, right?

Yep, I thought it was appropriate since I wasn't expecting that answer and have no idea if it's a town or scum or null tell.

[Robz888]

I actually think Archetype is scum. Vote: Archetype

[Jimmmmm]

I actually think Archetype is scum. Vote: Archetype

Why? He hasn't said a lot other than give a few reads and some theory.

[Galzria]

Let's count the number of times Axxle has called for my lynch since the day began:

#1 (1st Axxle Post)

Vote: Galzria

Let's do our first RVS lynch! (I assume? Haven't read every game to be sure)

#2 (3rd Axxle Post)

(incidentally also the reason I voted Galz)

#3 (6th Axxle post)

I thought this was Blitz Mafia, where is everyone? Need more votes on this guy!

Vote: Galzria

#4 (8th Axxle post)

Galz is doing nothing to progress the game.  Classic actilurking.

Neighborizer is the best way to make the PR an IC.

#5 (9th Axxle post)

Welp, Munch/Galz scumteam.  GG everyone, call me when the lynches go through.

#6 (11th Axxle post)

And I really am not really joking right now, I think it's the most likely thing at the moment, although later that probably will change.

What on earth are you basing this on? Munch seems like himself, Galzria hasn't done anything (or is that the case, posting without contributing.. one hour after the game started?), I don't know. Not trying to call the dogs on you though, bold play like this is usually town I think. I've never been good at reading Axxle though.

Galz not doing anything except setup speculation still really sets off alarm bells.  Munch overreacting to one other vote on Galz seems scumbuddyish.

#7 (20th Axxle post)

Galz, what are your reads? You post a lot of theory, but nothing about the players in this game specifically.

When people post more, I'll tell you. So far Robz has posted 3 times. mcmc has posted 3 times. Others have posted less (Archetype/Jimmm - although maybe I just missed them). When people start talking more, I'll form more solid opinions. I'm not going to state my thoughts on anybody until that time, as I really don't want to give scum the opportunity to come in and play towards my reads.

Sounds like a double standard.

((This one, while not calling for my lynch, is a particular favorite of mine, as it's blatantly false and misleading. Not only is it NOT what I said, it's not even CLOSE - and his attitude taken is that I've said nothing to date which is exactly on par with what the two I mentioned had said - I invite everybody to reread up to that point, and then laugh their ass off at Axxle as I did here.))

#8 (26th Axxle post)

Yep, now vote for Galz as per the soft deadline.

((Another favorite of mine - right after he imposed a "soft-deadline" (first, like he's some sort of IC or can command everybody around) of "10 minutes" he then comes out declaring everybody should vote for me as the clear lynch "per the soft deadline" - which, even if his word was worth anything at all (protip: it's not), the fact is there were TWO people with 1 vote each on them according to the votecount not FIVE posts prior - and yet "Vote for Galz as per the soft deadline" is apparently the obvious thing to do. Bwahaha))

#9 (28th Axxle post)

That last post is half in jest.

What I really want to do is Vote: Robz.

Your two biggest scumreads are the two players voting for your teammate?  I'm liking the Galz/Munch team more and more.

#10 (30th Axxle post)

Let's have a look back at my content this game vs yours, shall we?

Please tell me what you think this is, I'm curious.

You've literally said you've been holding back content this game.

((Again, not directly calling for my lynch here, but pulling out completely, 100% false information to further his lack of a case against me that he's been pushing all game long)).

#11 (33rd Axxle post)

His big long case one me, which contains a ton of actual content. Funny how I'm quite literally the -only- person he's called out over theory talk. Nothing on Robz. Nothing on Munch. Nothing on Drab. Nothing on mcmc. No... why not? Because they don't fit what he wants to sell. His "apathetic towards the game" is a line of a complete **** that is simply wrong - I stated I hadn't read the setup, and that I needed to do so. That's not apathy, that's "not reading the setup, and needing to do so". His "He's posted no content" is completely false as well, as he so handsomely demonstrates (thank you Axxle). His "witholding information and double-standard" case is a nothing case as well, given that I never actually said that.

He's right on one point. I completely dismissed his "case". Well, what can I say? When he actual bothers to participate in this game instead of spending 1/3 of his posts calling me out over quite literally nothing at all, I might be more inclined to give him the time of day. Until then, he's just another player trying to artificially inflate his post count without saying anything whatsoever of value.

[Archetype]

Robz, I really don't care if you vote for me, but I hope it's not because I wasn't here at the beginning.

[Jimmmmm]

Axxle has been pushing very hard very early, but I don't necessarily attribute that as scummyness.

PPE: Will have to read Galz' megapost.