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Author Topic: Probability paradoxes  (Read 33502 times)

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Jimmmmm

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2013, 04:03:50 am »
0

I find the birthday paradox (is it a paradox, though?) also interesting and many of you may know it.
The question is simple: What's the least amount of people that need to be in a room together for a better than 50% chance of at least two of them having the same birthday (date only of course, not the same year)? And how many for a 99% chance?

I hate when people call that a paradox. It's not a paradox at all, it's just somewhat counter-intuitive.
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Davio

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2013, 04:10:06 am »
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Hence the part in parentheses. :)
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2013, 04:11:27 am »
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I know, wasn't having a go at you at all, just saying. :)
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2013, 04:12:17 am »
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And yes, it is interesting, I think off the top of my head it pushes past 50% at 23 people (not taking leap years into account).
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Davio

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2013, 04:20:15 am »
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And yes, it is interesting, I think off the top of my head it pushes past 50% at 23 people (not taking leap years into account).
Yes, it's 23, a surprisingly small number. For 99% it's only 57.

If you are part of a small company of 25 to 50 employees it's more special if there are no shared birthdays than if there are.
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Ozle

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2013, 04:23:54 am »
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I find the birthday paradox (is it a paradox, though?) also interesting and many of you may know it.
The question is simple: What's the least amount of people that need to be in a room together for a better than 50% chance of at least two of them having the same birthday (date only of course, not the same year)? And how many for a 99% chance?

I hate when people call that a paradox. It's not a paradox at all, it's just somewhat counter-intuitive.

Are they not veridical paradoxs?

Essentially though, there are no paradoxes in nature....
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ipofanes

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2013, 05:34:32 am »
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Correct, I mean, all these "paradoxes" are really results counterintuitive in nature. If they were paradox they would not exist or else make the world vanish in a puff of logic.

That said, I like Simpson's Paradox. Note in the 1st answer, that if you don't know victim's race, the probability of issuing the death penalty is higher with white defendents than black defendents. Once you know victim's race, no matter what race the victim actually was, black defendents are more likely to receive the death penalty than white defendents. Try to wrap your brain around that.
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pacovf

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2013, 06:49:28 am »
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Quote
I have one sibling.  At least one of us is a boy.  What is the probability that the other is also a boy?

In this case, knowing that at least one of you two is a boy leaves three possibilities for you/sibling:

boy/boy
boy/girl
girl/boy

And now we have 2/3 male sibling.

Maybe I'm just being dense, but how do we know that these three possibilities are equally probable? The knowledge that there is at least one boy affects the possible outcomes (girl/girl isn't possible), so why wouldn't it also affect the probability of each one?
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ipofanes

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2013, 06:54:58 am »
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The statement "At least one of us is a boy" rules out one case, but doesn't affect the probabilities of the remaining three events.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2013, 06:57:28 am »
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Quote
I have one sibling.  At least one of us is a boy.  What is the probability that the other is also a boy?

In this case, knowing that at least one of you two is a boy leaves three possibilities for you/sibling:

boy/boy
boy/girl
girl/boy

And now we have 2/3 male sibling.

Maybe I'm just being dense, but how do we know that these three possibilities are equally probable? The knowledge that there is at least one boy affects the possible outcomes (girl/girl isn't possible), so why wouldn't it also affect the probability of each one?

It does affect them.  It brings each of these probabilities from 1/4 to 1/3.

As for why they are still equally likely, let me respond with a question.  What does probability mean?
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ipofanes

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2013, 07:08:32 am »
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It's a figure between 0 and 1, where 0 denotes the impossible event, and by deducting the probability from 1, you get the probability of the complement of the event. Probabilities of any mutual exclusive events can be added in order to obtain the probability that one of them happens.

That's the definition all different factions of statisticians can agree on. From here on, it's eternal feuds.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2013, 07:14:48 am »
+1

It's not strictly true that an event whose probability is zero is impossible, nor is an event whose probability is one guaranteed.  The technical term for the latter case is "almost sure".
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ipofanes

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2013, 07:16:21 am »
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It's not strictly true that an event whose probability is zero is impossible, nor is an event whose probability is one guaranteed.  The technical term for the latter case is "almost sure".

Of course, my bad.
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ipofanes

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2013, 07:25:11 am »
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And yes, it is interesting, I think off the top of my head it pushes past 50% at 23 people (not taking leap years into account).
Yes, it's 23, a surprisingly small number. For 99% it's only 57.

If you are part of a small company of 25 to 50 employees it's more special if there are no shared birthdays than if there are.

I always say if there's two football teams and a ref, chances are higher than 50 per cent.

As in the 1974 final Johnny Rep and Jan Jongbloed.


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WanderingWinder

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2013, 07:41:58 am »
+1

Another nice one that people tend to refuse to accept:
You are flipping a coin. Previously, you have established that the coin has equal odds of showing heads or tails; so no funny business there. You get heads ten times in a row. What are the odds of getting heads next coinflip?
And is this equal to the odds of getting eleven times heads in a row?

odds of the next coinflip are the same as any random coinflip, 50%. Interestingly, odds of eleven consecutive coinflips with equal result is 100%*((.5)^11) = ~0.05%. The difference lies in the fact that in the first case, the "history" has already taken place; it doesn't matter what result they gave; the information is irrelevant, I might just as well have stated (heads x3-tails x3 - heads) as history. Basically, I just kept flipping the coin, until variance gave me the desired history; if I try long enough it WILL happen eventually.  While in the second example, I have more uncertainty: I don't have the freedom to try, try, try again; I am calculating the odds of getting it right in one try.

Same problem works with throwing a die, or black vs. red in roulette but you have to adjust for the odds of each option (1/6 vs. 1/2 for the die, and for roulette the odds are slightly less than 50% due to the green fields.)

And for those of you who think this stuff is merely done for fun - I'm an engineer, and I have done probability calculations similar to this in that function in the past. Most difficult part is explaining any counterintuitive results to management...
Actually, this is only true if you assume that the coin MUST be a 'fair' coin. However, ten consecutive heads is some evidence that the coin isn't fair. How much - I don't know. What's the prior given the situation that the coin is actually fair vs a trick coin or something? If you flip the thing a million times and it comes up heads every single one, then sure, if you know it is a fair coin, it's still 50-50, but I would start to suspect, and I think quite rightly, that it's somehow rigged.

Donald X.

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2013, 08:17:18 am »
+2

However, ten consecutive heads is some evidence that the coin isn't fair.
I can arrange for it not to be!

Ten thousand people enter a coin-flipping contest. Each round, you flip a coin. On heads you advance to the next round; tails and you're out. We run the first ten rounds, after which there happen to be nine people still not eliminated.

We pause, and interview those nine people. How did you do it? We ask. What's your secret? Ten heads in a row, that's no small feat. Is there a trick to it? Is your coin special?

And some of those nine people would say, well. I had a good feeling going into this. I'm usually pretty lucky. It's all in the timing. I was on a streak; I was sure to win it, but with this pause, who knows now.

Perspective is a tricky thing.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2013, 08:19:42 am »
+3

Ten thousand people enter a coin-flipping contest.

/in.
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ipofanes

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2013, 08:27:11 am »
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Ten thousand people enter a coin-flipping contest.

My former advisor put it this way in a lecture: Imagine everyone rolls two dice. I then request everyone who rolled snake eyes to come to me and I will, thanks to my mental powers, heal you from your misfortune. Go ahead, you may see if I am right by re-rolling now!

Explaining the principle of regression to the mean.

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Davio

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2013, 08:27:15 am »
+3

Ten thousand people enter a coin-flipping contest.

/in.
Maybe this is the forum game he had planned on hosting?
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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2013, 08:30:51 am »
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However, ten consecutive heads is some evidence that the coin isn't fair.
I can arrange for it not to be!

Ten thousand people enter a coin-flipping contest. Each round, you flip a coin. On heads you advance to the next round; tails and you're out. We run the first ten rounds, after which there happen to be nine people still not eliminated.

We pause, and interview those nine people. How did you do it? We ask. What's your secret? Ten heads in a row, that's no small feat. Is there a trick to it? Is your coin special?

And some of those nine people would say, well. I had a good feeling going into this. I'm usually pretty lucky. It's all in the timing. I was on a streak; I was sure to win it, but with this pause, who knows now.

Perspective is a tricky thing.

No, it's definitely some evidence. It's not a certainty or anything, it's just SOME evidence. I stand by everything I said before, and repeat my question: what's your prior? This post seems to imply that your prior is that all coin-flips must be exactly 50-50... this is pretty short-sighted.

ipofanes

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2013, 08:38:06 am »
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I have read (but cannot find a source now) that it's very hard, if not impossible, to manufacture a coin, that, while looking innocent (and not obviously manipulated), and tossed properly, yields a biased result.

That means, if you toss the coin tem times before my eyes, my prior would be a lot more concentrated around .5 than if you said to me "I have tossed a coin ten times".
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 08:39:30 am by ipofanes »
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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2013, 08:49:21 am »
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Actually, this is only true if you assume that the coin MUST be a 'fair' coin.
As specified in the premise.

However, ten consecutive heads is some evidence that the coin isn't fair.
Sometimes there is no way to say something without being a condescending jerk, so here it goes (I have no friendlier way to phrase (PREVIEWED IN: from the post you made while I was typing this, seems to suggest you already got this. But, for those who didn't:)):
Ten consecutive heads in any realistic situation is some evidence that the coin MIGHT not be fair. The MIGHT is extremely important. There is a probability of ~0.1% of this happening. Compare this with lottery odds (link is an example that took me a few seconds to find) , they are much lower than this - yet every now and then someone somewhere wins a lottery. That's because A LOT of people partake in these lotteries...

The 0.1% chance of it happening, means a 99.9% chance of it failing, for each try. If I can have 3000 tries, that means odds of failing every single time are .999^3000 = .05 => 5%; i.e. with 3000 tries available, throwing 10 heads in a row doesn't seem so unlikely anymore!

I have been to casinos. I enjoy watching people spending boatloads of money on roulette even if I don't. And I actually did see a streak of >10 consecutive red results with my own eyes. Casinos feel a bias directly in their bottom line - they make sure it is negligible. But given the sheer number of roulette plays in the world, SOMEONE is bound to witness one SOMEWHERE SOMETIME.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2013, 08:50:24 am »
+1

Another nice one that people tend to refuse to accept:
You are flipping a coin. Previously, you have established that the coin has equal odds of showing heads or tails; so no funny business there. You get heads ten times in a row. What are the odds of getting heads next coinflip?
And is this equal to the odds of getting eleven times heads in a row?

odds of the next coinflip are the same as any random coinflip, 50%. Interestingly, odds of eleven consecutive coinflips with equal result is 100%*((.5)^11) = ~0.05%. The difference lies in the fact that in the first case, the "history" has already taken place; it doesn't matter what result they gave; the information is irrelevant, I might just as well have stated (heads x3-tails x3 - heads) as history. Basically, I just kept flipping the coin, until variance gave me the desired history; if I try long enough it WILL happen eventually.  While in the second example, I have more uncertainty: I don't have the freedom to try, try, try again; I am calculating the odds of getting it right in one try.

Same problem works with throwing a die, or black vs. red in roulette but you have to adjust for the odds of each option (1/6 vs. 1/2 for the die, and for roulette the odds are slightly less than 50% due to the green fields.)

And for those of you who think this stuff is merely done for fun - I'm an engineer, and I have done probability calculations similar to this in that function in the past. Most difficult part is explaining any counterintuitive results to management...
Actually, this is only true if you assume that the coin MUST be a 'fair' coin. However, ten consecutive heads is some evidence that the coin isn't fair. How much - I don't know. What's the prior given the situation that the coin is actually fair vs a trick coin or something? If you flip the thing a million times and it comes up heads every single one, then sure, if you know it is a fair coin, it's still 50-50, but I would start to suspect, and I think quite rightly, that it's somehow rigged.

I had a lot of fun thinking about this just now.  Assume that the coin used is (apparently) a US quarter.  If there is any funny business, then the fact that we got N = 1000000 heads in a row suggests that it was a double sided coin.  Suppose that there are Q quarters in circulation, and additionally D double-sided quarters (strictly, double headed).  Then Bayes' theorem gives us that the probability that a randomly chosen coin is fair given that it just gave N heads in a row is (1/2)^N*Q/( (1/2)^N Q + D ).

So when is the chance of the coin being fair 50-50?  Working it out, we see that it's when D/Q = (1/2)^N.  In other words, assuming that there are very few fake coins, the coin is more likely than not to be fake precisely if it is more likely that a randomly chosen coin in fake than it is for a legit coin to yield N heads in a row.

So yeah, with 1 million heads in a row, it would be FAR more likely that you happened across the world's only double-headed quarter in circulation.

EDIT:  In other words, if you pull a quarter out of your pocket and flip N heads in a row, and there is a least one double headed quarter for every 2^N legit quarters in circulation, then you are more likely to have happened across a fake.

Is 10 flips enough?  Well, 2^10 is only 1024, and I doubt that there is a double-headed quarter for every ~1000 quarters, so probably you witnessed the rare event of flipping a 10 heads in a row rather than the even more rare event of finding a double-sided quarter as the first one you pull from your pocket.

So how many many heads would you need for a fake to be more likely?  Well, I don't have stats, so I'll make a couple assumptions for an upper bound.  Assume that there is at least one fake in the world.  And second, let's assume that there's less than one trillion dollars worth of quarters (I suspect that there is FAR FAR less than this).  Then the log base 2 of 4 trillion is about 31, so flipping 32 heads in a row would tell you that more likely than not it's a fake.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 09:16:24 am by SirPeebles »
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Synthesizer

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2013, 09:00:24 am »
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Oh, and about being short sighted, and the premise, I failed to mention something that was obvious:
Of course I ordered a special calibrated coin from UnBiasedModelCoinCorp inc. :)

And then I just spent quite some time flipping this coin and recording the results, until I happened to run across a streak while having gathered enough data to do a statistical meaningful test and be able to state with > 99.999% certainty that the odds are 50/50.

That's the beauty of thought experiments and model calculations, you can just skip all the hard work. That's why we employ lab staff :)

On a more serious note, I do expect that randomly selected, not clearly defective coins (bent, double headed, whatnot) will be properly described by 50-50 heads/tails. Note that I also negliged the slight possibility of "neither" (i.e., it falls on its edge and just stands there).
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 09:08:56 am by Synthesizer »
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ipofanes

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Re: Probability paradoxes
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2013, 09:06:42 am »
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And then I just spent quite some time flipping this coin and recording the results, until I happened to run across a streak while having gathered enough data to do a statistical meaningful test and be able to state with > 99.999% certainty that the odds are 50/50.

Sounds like simple hypothesis against simple alternative, in which case I would like to see your alternative. Probably not anywhere within the interval [.499; .501].
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