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[jotheonah]

Sisko sits in his office, staring pensively at his baseball.

A Mirror Universe infiltrator, caught. But that means there could be more on board. Why? What could their mission be? How could he stop them before its too late....

Vote Count 2.3

ashersky (1): mcmcsalot
shraeye (4): Eevee, ashersky, Jimmmmm, Robz888 {L-3}
mcmcsalot (1): The Munch

Not voting (6): shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, yuma, Dsell, theorel

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.

[Robz888]

I should comment on one or two other things.

I don't think Munch's case against Mcmc is without merit, even though Mcmc is a townread for me. But I don't like Mc's vote on ashersky at all--as much as Mcmc is a townread for me, ashersky is an even bigger townread. Look guys, I know he's insane, but there's no way this is scum ashersky. There's just no way. And town!ashersky acts like this all the time. So I think people pushing cases against him are either making a huge mistake, or are pursuing the low-hanging fruit or something. It would be easy to lynch ash, because he's gone off the deep end, but it would be very, very wrong. (And doing so drives him further off the deep end, if you haven't noticed).

Oh but yeah, about Munch's case. I get it, it's something, but I'm not really going to punish Mcmc for saying he was going to hammer, then coming on and seeing this Cuzz debate raging, but it's late and he hadn't really planned for this, so he shurgs and says, okay no hammer now, and leaves. I get how that's kind of taking the easy way out and a bit scummy, but not the scummiest thing ever. But I don't like him pursuing an ash lynch either. So I guess I downgrade Mcmc from likely town to neutral.

Huge townread on ash, like I said, and still Glooble. And theorel.

[ashersky]

A final post clarifying what I think has happened with regards to me this game (especially the whole D2 back and forth with Munch, and now mcmc).

I'll call it RVS.  No, not that one.  Or the other one.  A new one!  Relentless Voltgloss Syndrome.  But what's that, you ask?  I think I can break it down fairly well, and hopefully explain why I've been a bit cranky in my responses.

A bit ago, a group of us f.ds mafia players took a trip to Helsinki.  Not to get into too much about the trip, there was a day where I ended up being lynched.  I was a VT.  Voltgloss was the strongest proponent of that lynch.  So it turned out that we were both town, and Super Scum Overlord ehunt played everyone, but that's besides the point.  I want to point out that the way that lynch went down is extremely indicative of town!ash.

Voltgloss's case on me was based on facts.  I mean real facts.  Vote counts, who voted for who, what was said.  Indisputable facts.  And yet, I was town.  It has to do with how facts are presented, interpreted, and used, I believe.  Here's an example I am making up:

Factual statement 1: Robz888 hasn't been around much lately this game.  He posted that he got sick, though.

Factual statement 2: Robz888 HAS NOT posted anywhere near as much as he usually does, even compared to D1!  I mean, he post that he's "sick," but come on.

So, no lies in either of those statements, but they clearly have different intentions.  I think version 1 is an example of a town way of saying something.  I think version 2 could be a way scum would say that.

In Helsinki, Voltgloss made the argument that I loudly protested and voted for people during the game, but I did NOT do that to Cuzz.  This was true.  I couldn't factually refute it.  He made some other points, too, some of which were set-up related, but to get to my point here: in response to Volt's case against me, I defaulted to an emotion-based response.  "I'm not lying, so you need to believe me!"  Well, self-pity and indignation was neither popular nor effective, and I got lynched.

So, take this game.  We've got Munch with his "scum slip" argument.  He's caught me, he says.  Here's what I see:

Factual statement 1: Ashersky made a faulty leap of logic from Robz statement that there is probably scum amongst munshraeray to one of munshraeray killed raerae.  That doesn't make much sense.

Factual statement 2: Ashersky CLAIMS Robz thought munch or shraeye killed raerae but KNOWS it isn't true!  Look at his argument!  How can he possibly know this???

As mentioned, self-pity and indignation didn't work.  So I'm trying flippant and irritated (kind of--I mean, you can't totally change who you are).  Probably, it's just as effective as the first one, but, well, at least I'm trying something different.

Another reason I was so upset with the way Helsinki went down was because I really felt that Voltgloss should have known me better.  I mean, better than most, given having played together, having faced off as scum v. town before, having modded together.  For the same reasons, especially following Helsinki, I think this entire post will resonate most with yuma, who will understand the best.

PS -- If there's a Super Scum Overlord ehunt in this game, it's theorel.

[yuma]

did you read my analysis of shraraeunch? If not then apparently we disagree about interpretation of a lot of posts that I think can't really be interpreted any other way... furthermore you do not do any quoting. Did you go back and reread or was all of this from memory? I found significant moments that directly contradict your statements where shraeye or another player called out and criticized and expressed scum reads on one of the other players.  Yes they all moved the lynch on Cuzz. But so did Galz, mcmc and you and ash. The only other thing that they agreed upon was the desire to end day1.... I don't get how you and I can have such contrary opinions on something that can be easily researched.

If you really feel this way, please go back, find the evidence, post it show me. It doesn't necessarily have to be in quote form--mine wasn't. But mine was a thorough look at all three players, noting every time I found and interaction.

[shraeye]

But shraeye was like, POSITIVE, Cuzz was scum, and did even hesitate at all, even after Cuzz's claim. That's a little too much for me to believe. It makes shraeye's certainty seeming incredulous, and therefore, false.

I hope this isn't the new piece of info.  I'm a decisive person.  I had decided on a Cuzz lynch.  He looked scummy to me for a number of reasons, and I explained them all.  Somehow these reasons are being called manipulative a few times (theorel, Jimmm have mentioned this).

I don't understand the distinction between "reason that convinces shraeye, so he writes about it and other people are also convinced" and "manipulative reason".  I mean if my reasons are being called manipulative because people bought into them, then no lynch is gonna happen unless either A)somebody manipulates, or B)everybody somehow independently finds a person scummy, through no suggestion based on other people's reasons.

I know, that's taking it to the extremes and much farther than anyone here is explicitly saying.  But still I see myself being called manipulative simply because people were persuaded; that feels wrong.

[shraeye]

Look guys, I know he's insane, but there's no way this is scum ashersky. There's just no way. And town!ashersky acts like this all the time. So I think people pushing cases against him are either making a huge mistake, or are pursuing the low-hanging fruit or something. It would be easy to lynch ash, because he's gone off the deep end, but it would be very, very wrong. (And doing so drives him further off the deep end, if you haven't noticed).

I wouldn't say ashersky is acting insane, but I also have a strong townread on him.  I agree with this.

[yuma]

I understand it, but I don't like it. That is to say that I think ash is town. His play style is crazy and frankly drives me a bit nuts. I would strongly prefer that he play a bit less crazy as town, but I can't tell him what to do or how to play, that is his own decision and has every right to it.

To continue with this vein of thought, the reason I would prefer that he play differently as town is that it always results in him getting lynched, mislynched. I think that is why I get a little annoyed by the occasional "woe is me post" because his mislynches are often the result of his own play style. Which is why I disagree that his play style is an easy one to copy as scum. It is easy to copy, but why copy it when it will just result in you getting lynched. That is just dumb play--and I think ash is smart enough to realize this. To me this is town ash. It is different from the times he was scum in MXIV and MXV and more similar to MXVI. Sorry for all the roman numerals... but that is my read.

[yuma]

Robz is probably my number one townread, so his endorsement of the shraeye lynch definitely holds weight with me. But something still seems off to me. Sorry I can't offer anything more constructive right now.

why is he a town read?

[Robz888]

did you read my analysis of shraraeunch? If not then apparently we disagree about interpretation of a lot of posts that I think can't really be interpreted any other way... furthermore you do not do any quoting. Did you go back and reread or was all of this from memory? I found significant moments that directly contradict your statements where shraeye or another player called out and criticized and expressed scum reads on one of the other players.  Yes they all moved the lynch on Cuzz. But so did Galz, mcmc and you and ash. The only other thing that they agreed upon was the desire to end day1.... I don't get how you and I can have such contrary opinions on something that can be easily researched.

If you really feel this way, please go back, find the evidence, post it show me. It doesn't necessarily have to be in quote form--mine wasn't. But mine was a thorough look at all three players, noting every time I found and interaction.

I did read your post of course, I just drew the opposite conclusion based on the data you presented. I see plenty of evidence for my position based on what you posted. They only criticize each other in the most cursory of ways! When shraeye criticizes munch, he even hedges is it with that "it was fun scolding munch" statement that casts it in a silly light. No votes for each other, no serious suspicion. I should go back and re read and see what I come with, but I would say that based on what YOU came up with, the three of them act like a team.

Now, what does it mean that they act like a team? And here I don't think it's unreasonable if you conclude they act like a team for some reason other than at least one of them is scum. That's the part of that is a bit open to interpretation I think, which is why my case on shraeye rests on other pieces of evidence, too. But I don't think their buddying is controversial, it's definitively proved by the evidence you provided. So I don't know what to say to you, Yuma, other than perhaps we are both just confirming our own biases at this point.

[shraeye]

Apropos to yuma's question, I meant to ask you if you had a chance to follow up on this post.

We also need to look at shraeye and yuma. On the one hand, Shraeye tunneled hard on Cuzz, had everyone (including me) buying his arguments, but on the other hand, would a scum player really ever tunnel that hard on anyone? It seems dangerous.

I still read townie on Shraeye.

Yuma's fast wagon on Shraeye also needs to be examined, but I have no idea what to make of it. On the surface it seems very townie, but... I don't know, it bothers me. That might just be residual suspicion of yuma, though, from when he was on my wagon.

[liopoil]

I now have a townread on every player in this game except galzria and mcmcsalot. galz is dead, so Vote: Mcmcsalot. The rest of you have done pretty darn well coming across as on the good guy's side.

The biggest reason for this is that he said he would hammer but didn't. It's a good way to not take a side, and to not really be under scrutiny regardless of how cuzz flipped. Sure, if cuzz flipped scum people would say, "oh look, mcmc was off-wagon, but I guess he was going to hammer, and he didn't oppose the lynch... and oh look eevee REALLY didn't want to lynch him!" It seems overly cautious. Scum need to be more cautious than town, so excessive carefulness is scummy.

[yuma]

Yuma, other than perhaps we are both just confirming our own biases at this point.

I too think this is a possibility. Sometimes I think I am smarter than I actually am.

[yuma]

For example I can't quote properly...

Yuma, other than perhaps we are both just confirming our own biases at this point.

I too think this is a possibility. Sometimes I think I am smarter than I actually am.

[yuma]

I think right now I am leaning toward an mcmc vote or a glooble vote... Although I first want to have glooble answer some outstanding questions and I am curious about Robz's extra information that he is withholding... {Arrested Development reference in my head, let's see if I can find it... I did! }

[Glooble]

What questions would these be, exactly??

[yuma]

these two at least...

[Robz888]

I think right now I am leaning toward an mcmc vote or a glooble vote... Although I first want to have glooble answer some outstanding questions and I am curious about Robz's extra information that he is withholding... {Arrested Development reference in my head, let's see if I can find it... I did! }

Ah, I really don't like either of these choices (though I of course love the video).

[Glooble]

I need a little time to put my thoughts together, and unfortunately I won't have it until tomorrow afternoon. Right now I'm posting from my phone and I have a massive headache.

I don't have a good evidence- based reason for my town read on Robz beyond that he's seemed very transparent with his reasoning in a way that is hard for scum to do.

I haven't looked back at the end of day shraeye wagon yet. I will get back to you tomorrow on that front. I can't look at this tiny screen anymore. Sorry.

[Robz888]

I now have a townread on every player in this game except galzria and mcmcsalot. galz is dead, so Vote: Mcmcsalot. The rest of you have done pretty darn well coming across as on the good guy's side.

The biggest reason for this is that he said he would hammer but didn't. It's a good way to not take a side, and to not really be under scrutiny regardless of how cuzz flipped. Sure, if cuzz flipped scum people would say, "oh look, mcmc was off-wagon, but I guess he was going to hammer, and he didn't oppose the lynch... and oh look eevee REALLY didn't want to lynch him!" It seems overly cautious. Scum need to be more cautious than town, so excessive carefulness is scummy.

No, the more I think about this, the more strongly I disagree. It was good, and pro-town, that Mc didn't hammer when he said he would. We were in the middle of huge, important discussion, that forced people into new positions--the shraeye wagon--exposed new info about Cuzz--that turned out to be wrong, oh well--and produced a different hammer: me + ashersky, I believe. This is actually better. If Player X says, "Okay, I am hammering 5 hours from now," and then does so, that's such a like a safe, mellow end of the day. Because he's just following through on what he said, how can you attack him? So to me, that's actually the safe thing and it should raise more questions. That would have been taking the easy way out. Instead, Mcmc let the rest of the day play out, and we got some useful discussion and forced some people to get on record (myself included!), and really it was better.

So, while this isn't a situation where I think you can say, "scum!mcmcsalot would have done that" or "town!mcmcsalot would have done that," but it was a beneficial, pro-town thing to do, the way he actually did it.

[TheMunch]

I now have a townread on every player in this game except galzria and mcmcsalot. galz is dead, so Vote: Mcmcsalot. The rest of you have done pretty darn well coming across as on the good guy's side.

The biggest reason for this is that he said he would hammer but didn't. It's a good way to not take a side, and to not really be under scrutiny regardless of how cuzz flipped. Sure, if cuzz flipped scum people would say, "oh look, mcmc was off-wagon, but I guess he was going to hammer, and he didn't oppose the lynch... and oh look eevee REALLY didn't want to lynch him!" It seems overly cautious. Scum need to be more cautious than town, so excessive carefulness is scummy.

Yeah, the more I think about this, the more strongly I agree.  It was terrible and pro-mcmc that mc didn't hammer when he said he would.  Although we were in the middle of a huge discussion, it wasn't important and didn't really force people into new positions -- extended day 1 muddled everyone's reads.  It produced a different hammer which was exactly what mcmc wanted.  When mc said "okay intent to hammer, I'm just going to wait until 15 people have responded to something" it is such a safe position for mc to be in.  He probably didn't actually intend to ever follow through on what he said, and that is more than enough reason to be critical of him.  Mcmc took the easy way out by never actually tying himself to his position.

I dont know whether scum!mcmc or town!mcmc would do much as I haven't played much with him, nor would I want to let meta reads effect me that much.  It was definitely pro-mcmc, not pro-town, the way he actually did it.

[Jimmmmm]

Well it certainly wasn't pro-mcmc if doing it caused multiple people to be suspicious of him, but I see your point.

[theorel]

Sisko sits in his office, staring pensively at his baseball.

A Mirror Universe infiltrator, caught. But that means there could be more on board. Why? What could their mission be? How could he stop them before its too late....

Vote Count 2.3

ashersky (1): mcmcsalot
shraeye (4): Eevee, ashersky, Jimmmmm, Robz888 {L-3}
mcmcsalot (1): The Munch

Not voting (6): shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, yuma, Dsell, theorel

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.

I didn't unvote...not sure if I will...I'm fine with shraeye at L-2.  I did say I would consider other options, but I did not intend to stop voting shraeye during these considerations.  I'm assuming my comment about unvoting shraeye yesterday got interpreted as an "unvote" today.  Anyways vote: shraeye, to put it back there.  Now to finish catching up.

[jotheonah]

It was probably a mistake on my part.

Flavor flavor flavor



Vote Count 2.4

ashersky (1): mcmcsalot
shraeye (5): Eevee, ashersky, Jimmmmm, Robz888, theorel {L-2}
mcmcsalot (2): The Munch, liopoil

Not voting (4): shraeye, Glooble, yuma, Dsell

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.

[TheMunch]

Well it certainly wasn't pro-mcmc if doing it caused multiple people to be suspicious of him, but I see your point.

By pro-mc I mean that he did it for himself, not to benefit town.

[Robz888]

I now have a townread on every player in this game except galzria and mcmcsalot. galz is dead, so Vote: Mcmcsalot. The rest of you have done pretty darn well coming across as on the good guy's side.

The biggest reason for this is that he said he would hammer but didn't. It's a good way to not take a side, and to not really be under scrutiny regardless of how cuzz flipped. Sure, if cuzz flipped scum people would say, "oh look, mcmc was off-wagon, but I guess he was going to hammer, and he didn't oppose the lynch... and oh look eevee REALLY didn't want to lynch him!" It seems overly cautious. Scum need to be more cautious than town, so excessive carefulness is scummy.

Yeah, the more I think about this, the more strongly I agree.  It was terrible and pro-mcmc that mc didn't hammer when he said he would.  Although we were in the middle of a huge discussion, it wasn't important and didn't really force people into new positions -- extended day 1 muddled everyone's reads.  It produced a different hammer which was exactly what mcmc wanted.  When mc said "okay intent to hammer, I'm just going to wait until 15 people have responded to something" it is such a safe position for mc to be in.  He probably didn't actually intend to ever follow through on what he said, and that is more than enough reason to be critical of him.  Mcmc took the easy way out by never actually tying himself to his position.

I dont know whether scum!mcmc or town!mcmc would do much as I haven't played much with him, nor would I want to let meta reads effect me that much.  It was definitely pro-mcmc, not pro-town, the way he actually did it.

I disagree. The discussion made me more comfortable with the lynch, since I didn't like Cuzz's answers. I ended up deciding to vote for Cuzz's lynch, when previously I opposed it. It gave shraeye a chance to recant the lynch, which he did not take. It revealed Munch as an aggressive supporter of shraeye's case against Cuzz. It unhinged ashersky, strengthening my town read on him. It gave yuma a chance to come forward and try to start alternate wagons. It did not muddle the day, as far as I'm concerned.