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[ftl]

To be fair, a lot of people are bothered by Possession in general.

KC-goons-masq are three cards which people usually like, but when put together make a pin.

[StrongRhino]

I'll play it out except when it's KC-Goons-Masquerade.

I never understood why this pin bothered people so much. I've literally never used it or had it used against me in a game of Dominion. Probably because I can't have seen those three cards together more than once or twice in all the thousands of games.

I only remember seeing it once in Pro random, but didn't see it until after. I still won with a Goons engine though.

[Awaclus]

KC-goons-masq are three cards which people usually like, but when put together, only one player likes them.

This is what you meant, right?

[eHalcyon]

I'll play it out except when it's KC-Goons-Masquerade.

I never understood why this pin bothered people so much. I've literally never used it or had it used against me in a game of Dominion. Probably because I can't have seen those three cards together more than once or twice in all the thousands of games.

I've seen it one or two times. It doesn't come up often, yeah, but when it does, your entire game becomes: Buy copper, buy curse, pass, every turn. It's entirely not fun. Being beaten by a good engine often gives you some small hope, and you can at least continue scoring points, instead of lose them as your opponent slowly marches towards ending the game.

Yeah, I'm aware of the implications. I just don't particularly care about a degenerate case that occurs once every few thousand games. Why are people bothered by this and not Possession-Forge, which is a two-card pin and therefore far more likely to actually appear?

Wait, how do you pin with Possession-Forge?  I don't think I've heard of this and I can't think of how it would work.

[Awaclus]

I'll play it out except when it's KC-Goons-Masquerade.

I never understood why this pin bothered people so much. I've literally never used it or had it used against me in a game of Dominion. Probably because I can't have seen those three cards together more than once or twice in all the thousands of games.

I've seen it one or two times. It doesn't come up often, yeah, but when it does, your entire game becomes: Buy copper, buy curse, pass, every turn. It's entirely not fun. Being beaten by a good engine often gives you some small hope, and you can at least continue scoring points, instead of lose them as your opponent slowly marches towards ending the game.

Yeah, I'm aware of the implications. I just don't particularly care about a degenerate case that occurs once every few thousand games. Why are people bothered by this and not Possession-Forge, which is a two-card pin and therefore far more likely to actually appear?

Wait, how do you pin with Possession-Forge?  I don't think I've heard of this and I can't think of how it would work.

It's actually not a two card combo, you need Ambassador or Masquerade and Council Room or Governor (and if you have Council Room and not Governor, you also need a village). And most of the time you also need a Throne effect unless your opponent has a very thin deck. It goes like this (if memory serves me right):

Step 1: Buy a Forge, give it to your opponent with an Ambassador or Masquerade.
Step 2: Buy all the Governors and usually some Throne Rooms or KCs.
Step 3: Every turn, play all of your Governors and make your opponent draw his whole deck, then play Possession. On the possessed turn, play Forge and trash everything. The trashed cards are set aside. Then comes his clean up step, he discards Forge from play, reshuffles the Forge in his discard pile and draws the Forge. Then the set aside cards are returned to his discard pile. He now plays his turn with a Forge and nothing else in his hand.

So it's actually much more complicated than KC/Masq/Goons, and that's also probably why you've never seen it.

[Schneau]

Forge/Possession first described here.

[eHalcyon]

Ah, OK, I'd just forgotten about it.  And yeah, KC-Goons-Masq is more likely to appear because it Possession-Forge alone will not pin; it DOES require Governor or CR, and probably KC as well.  Even with KC I think it would be pretty difficult to force the opponent to draw their entire deck, and if you have a KC-Governor deck capable of doing that then you could probably win without pinning them.  KC-Goons-Masq is more common because it's actually KC-Masq-discard attack.

[() | (_) ^/]

...
KC-Goons-Masq is more common because it's actually KC-Masq-discard attack.

Well, you can also pull it off with TR.  WW did it in one of his iso videos.

I think that one was TR-TR-Militia-Masq -- and I remember there being an Outpost in there?  Not sure if correct.

[sudgy]

...
KC-Goons-Masq is more common because it's actually KC-Masq-discard attack.

Well, you can also pull it off with TR.  WW did it in one of his iso videos.

I think that one was TR-TR-Militia-Masq -- and I remember there being an Outpost in there?  Not sure if correct.

That leaves them with one card in hand, which they definitely could do something with.

[eHalcyon]

...
KC-Goons-Masq is more common because it's actually KC-Masq-discard attack.

Well, you can also pull it off with TR.  WW did it in one of his iso videos.

I think that one was TR-TR-Militia-Masq -- and I remember there being an Outpost in there?  Not sure if correct.

That leaves them with one card in hand, which they definitely could do something with.

Well, if Outpost is also involved...

[Tables]

...
KC-Goons-Masq is more common because it's actually KC-Masq-discard attack.

Well, you can also pull it off with TR.  WW did it in one of his iso videos.

I think that one was TR-TR-Militia-Masq -- and I remember there being an Outpost in there?  Not sure if correct.

That leaves them with one card in hand, which they definitely could do something with.

Leaving them with 1 card is usually* sufficient to grind their deck to a halt.

*(It depends on the board)

[GendoIkari]

...
KC-Goons-Masq is more common because it's actually KC-Masq-discard attack.

Well, you can also pull it off with TR.  WW did it in one of his iso videos.

I think that one was TR-TR-Militia-Masq -- and I remember there being an Outpost in there?  Not sure if correct.

That leaves them with one card in hand, which they definitely could do something with.

Leaving them with 1 card is usually* sufficient to grind their deck to a halt.

*(It depends on the board)

*Yes, the board needs to have Masq in it. Oh wait...

[sudgy]

...
KC-Goons-Masq is more common because it's actually KC-Masq-discard attack.

Well, you can also pull it off with TR.  WW did it in one of his iso videos.

I think that one was TR-TR-Militia-Masq -- and I remember there being an Outpost in there?  Not sure if correct.

That leaves them with one card in hand, which they definitely could do something with.

Well, if Outpost is also involved...

The problem is, with just TR-TR-Militia-Masq, you have no more actions.  You could throw another TR in there, but then you have a six card deck, and you can't guarantee being able to do anything...

[Tables]

...
KC-Goons-Masq is more common because it's actually KC-Masq-discard attack.

Well, you can also pull it off with TR.  WW did it in one of his iso videos.

I think that one was TR-TR-Militia-Masq -- and I remember there being an Outpost in there?  Not sure if correct.

That leaves them with one card in hand, which they definitely could do something with.

Well, if Outpost is also involved...

The problem is, with just TR-TR-Militia-Masq, you have no more actions.  You could throw another TR in there, but then you have a six card deck, and you can't guarantee being able to do anything...

If you kill them faster than they can do anything, you don't need any more actions. You need some kind of strategy for actually winning once you've thinned them out to one card, but that's really it. It IS a lot less viable than the KC based version because it's slower, but it still works alright.

[shark_bait]

The iconic TR pin is TR, TR, Minion, Masquerade, Outpost

It is a 5-Card deck that pushes your opponent to 4-cards and trashes all 4 cards leaving non left in hand.

[GwinnR]

[

The iconic TR pin is TR, TR, Minion, Masquerade, Outpost

It is a 5-Card deck that pushes your opponent to 4-cards and trashes all 4 cards leaving non left in hand.

But what if you draw TR/TR/Masquerade in your Outpost-turn? Then you have to give him the Minion back, which you certainly don't want.
]

Ok, this post makes no sense, if you play this right. See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6290.msg282215#msg282215

[liopoil]

maybe you play the minion, then TR-TR-outpost-masq? then on the outpost turn on the of TR is attached to the outpost? and you draw TR-masq-minion, play minion for money, TR-masq. I can't remember is TR-outpost works that way though... it might make you only draw 3 cards for your regular turn too.

[Drab Emordnilap]

The iconic TR pin is TR, TR, Minion, Masquerade, Outpost

It is a 5-Card deck that pushes your opponent to 4-cards and trashes all 4 cards leaving non left in hand.

But what if you draw TR/TR/Masquerade in your Outpost-turn? Then you have to give him the Minion back, which you certainly don't want.

With 5 cards, you play Minion first for cards, then throne throne outpost masquerade. One Throne Room stays in play with the Outpost, because its a duration card. Your only 3 cards in your deck are Minion Throne Room Masquerade.

[GwinnR]

The iconic TR pin is TR, TR, Minion, Masquerade, Outpost

It is a 5-Card deck that pushes your opponent to 4-cards and trashes all 4 cards leaving non left in hand.

But what if you draw TR/TR/Masquerade in your Outpost-turn? Then you have to give him the Minion back, which you certainly don't want.

With 5 cards, you play Minion first for cards, then throne throne outpost masquerade. One Throne Room stays in play with the Outpost, because its a duration card. Your only 3 cards in your deck are Minion Throne Room Masquerade.

Ah ok, you play it that way. Thanks for explaining.

[blueblimp]

There was a rules thread http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8388.0 that convinced me that according to a correct reading of the rules, a throne roomed outpost should actually not be cleaned up on your outpost turn and instead the turn after. So that would make the usual setup of outpost pins invalid. That said, neither isotropic nor goko work like that.

It'd still be possible to set up an outpost pin with that rules adjustment, but you'd need a deck more like Village, TR, Minion, Outpost, Masquerade. Play Village, Minion to discard, Outpost, TR-Masq.

[Eran of Arcadia]

Lost a game when my opponent used Counting House to pull 16 coppers and buy the last 2 provinces . . .

[Witherweaver]

There was a rules thread http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8388.0 that convinced me that according to a correct reading of the rules, a throne roomed outpost should actually not be cleaned up on your outpost turn and instead the turn after. So that would make the usual setup of outpost pins invalid. That said, neither isotropic nor goko work like that.

It'd still be possible to set up an outpost pin with that rules adjustment, but you'd need a deck more like Village, TR, Minion, Outpost, Masquerade. Play Village, Minion to discard, Outpost, TR-Masq.

I thought the rule was you only leave modifications of duration cards out if they're actually doing something.  Since TR->Outpost is equivalent to Outpost, you don't leave the TR out.

(Equivalent in the sense of the card's effect.  Obviously it can change other things, like Peddler.)

EDIT: Okay I actually read the post.  Is that the official ruling?

[lespeutere]

...
KC-Goons-Masq is more common because it's actually KC-Masq-discard attack.

Well, you can also pull it off with TR.  WW did it in one of his iso videos.

I think that one was TR-TR-Militia-Masq -- and I remember there being an Outpost in there?  Not sure if correct.

Do you have a link? I'm not really willing to search through all his videos. ;-) I was subjected to the classic pin once by ArtJomS (some of you may remember him). I hadn't seen it and went for a goons engine and by the time he had the pin going I had enough VP to eventually 3 pile somehow. He resigned before, though.

[() | (_) ^/]

...
KC-Goons-Masq is more common because it's actually KC-Masq-discard attack.

Well, you can also pull it off with TR.  WW did it in one of his iso videos.

I think that one was TR-TR-Militia-Masq -- and I remember there being an Outpost in there?  Not sure if correct.

Do you have a link? I'm not really willing to search through all his videos. ;-) I was subjected to the classic pin once by ArtJomS (some of you may remember him). I hadn't seen it and went for a goons engine and by the time he had the pin going I had enough VP to eventually 3 pile somehow. He resigned before, though.

Nope, don't have a link.  I'm just as unwilling as you are -- searching through all of the dominion videos isn't my cup of tea.

EDIT: Well, I gave in.  Here is the link.  I guess it's my cup of tea after all.  Looks like I was wrong.  No TR, BUT ALSO NO MILITIA/GOONS!  it was KC-KC-Outpost-Masq.

In lieu of a discarder, he just gets in 3 extra plays of Masq every two turns.  Crazy.

[blueblimp]

There was a rules thread http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8388.0 that convinced me that according to a correct reading of the rules, a throne roomed outpost should actually not be cleaned up on your outpost turn and instead the turn after. So that would make the usual setup of outpost pins invalid. That said, neither isotropic nor goko work like that.

It'd still be possible to set up an outpost pin with that rules adjustment, but you'd need a deck more like Village, TR, Minion, Outpost, Masquerade. Play Village, Minion to discard, Outpost, TR-Masq.

I thought the rule was you only leave modifications of duration cards out if they're actually doing something.  Since TR->Outpost is equivalent to Outpost, you don't leave the TR out.

(Equivalent in the sense of the card's effect.  Obviously it can change other things, like Peddler.)

EDIT: Okay I actually read the post.  Is that the official ruling?

I'm not aware of any official ruling on the subject. Probably would be best to ask on BGG for that since Donald X doesn't visit these forums anymore.