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[zahlman]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/23/game-20121123-053604-b86fadf2.html

We both got 2 Ambs, and I was ahead on those, but it felt like I somehow was constantly behind in the Amb war.

He made a strange Quarry buy first round on a board with no +Action or +Buy, but still seemed to get better economy, even before the whole Hoard thing happened.

I won Hunting Parties 7-3 but couldn't seem to ever chain them. I thought you're not supposed to need more than one Gold in this deck? And that 7 Lab-types should have pretty decent coverage of a sub-30 card deck?

How could this go so far wrong?

[DG]

This turn shows why you open with a quarry.

maname plays a Hunting Party.
 ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action
 ... revealing 2 Estates, a Quarry, and 2 Coppers.
 ... (maname reshuffles.)
 ... revealing a Copper, a Copper, an Estate, and an Ambassador.
... putting the Ambassador into the hand.
... discarding an Estate and 2 Coppers.
maname plays an Ambassador.
 ... maname reveals an Estate.
 ... returning 2 copies to the supply.
 ... zahlman gains an Estate.
maname plays 2 Coppers.
maname plays a Quarry.
maname buys a Hunting Party.

[shark_bait]

In ambassador tennis, there are some $5-Cost cards worth getting asap.  As DG pointed out, HP is one of them.  Quarry is a great opening when you want to get said action card as it is essentially a Gold. 

[greatexpectations]

In ambassador tennis, there are some $5-Cost cards worth getting asap.  As DG pointed out, HP is one of them.  Quarry is a great opening when you want to get said action card as it is essentially a Gold.

very true. but it is also a unique card, so you will want to be careful about when you pick up silver so as to not slow down your hp stack.

[eHalcyon]

I think you fell behind in the Amb war because he got a second Amb right away but you didn't until turn 7. You also used Amb conservatively. There was at least one turn you returned a single Estate instead of double Copper.

I'm not sure, but I think his deck was super slim in the mid game. I see multiple turns where his Hunting Party only reveals one card from the deck and discards it, drawing nothing - so he was drawing almost his entire deck. This is when he sends the Quarry to you and picks up a Hoard instead. Then he starts getting so much Gold that losing the HP split doesn't matter.

So I think he won thanks to his Amb play, slimming down his deck significantly and then ramping up quickly with Hoard.

[dondon151]

very true. but it is also a unique card, so you will want to be careful about when you pick up silver so as to not slow down your hp stack.

A Quarry will accelerate an HP stack because you'll pick up more HPs.

zahlman, I'm not sure how you got the appraisal that you were ahead in the Amb war. Your opening Amb fell to turn 5 with a terrible draw, you picked up your second Amb much later, and your opponent got more HPs faster. You also probably pigeonholed Quarry in your mind as a card that is only good in engines with tons of +buys and Action cards. That's not the right way to think of any card because it doesn't let you understand how that card is good on other boards. Quarry is a fantastic way to bootstrap your Action-oriented economy when you're forced to open with another card that kills your economy.

[greatexpectations]

A Quarry will accelerate an HP stack because you'll pick up more HPs.

correct. my comment wasn't a criticism of quarry at all. it was more of a comment that you might want to carefully consider a silver purchase until you can get your deck to a manageable state.

[DG]

The key part about the quarry is the specific interaction with ambassador and the remaining hand size.

[heatthespurs]

I think you fell behind in the Amb war because he got a second Amb right away but you didn't until turn 7. You also used Amb conservatively. There was at least one turn you returned a single Estate instead of double Copper.

Not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere. But how do you determine when to return 2 copper or 1 estate? Is it true that it is usually better to return 2 copper than 1 estate? And why?

[greatexpectations]

Not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere. But how do you determine when to return 2 copper or 1 estate? Is it true that it is usually better to return 2 copper than 1 estate? And why?

personally, you should return 2 copper over 1 estate 99% of the time during turns 3 and 4. past that i would still choose 2 copper over 1 estate probably 70% of the time. the main exceptions would be when you feel that returning the estate instead will leave you the spending power necessary to get a key card or when you feel you have a comfortable lead in the ambassador fight.

[ftl]

If you're trying to trash, you probably want to trash fast. Returning 2 coppers instead of 1 estate means you see the Ambassador faster - and it might give you a chance to return 2 estates later!

Compare to Chapel, where if you draw Chapel with 4 coppers, you probably want to trash them all.

Exceptions if there's a particular card you need to get early, don't have yet, and want to buy this turn by not returning Coppers...

[zahlman]

I wanted to return 2 cards, but a lot of the time I either wouldn't get them or doing so would mean getting another Silver instead of HP and I already ended up with really too much Silver for a deck like this IMHO.

So yeah, I see how Quarry works here now, thank you. I don't really know what I was thinking about being ahead in the Amb war... must have somehow deluded myself into thinking a turn 1 buy is meaningfully "ahead" of a turn 2 buy or something. At turn 4 it seemed like I wouldn't need a second Amb (and I figured I didn't want one if I didn't need it because I figured an HP-rich deck eventually collides terminals a lot - but that's silly; winning the war early more than justifies a dead card late), and turns 5 and 6 I hit 5 and wasn't about to turn down HPs. But I'm still confused as to why the HPs did such a bad job of drawing and hitting 8. Maybe I should get more Menageries over Silver? Get a second Gold anyway since the deck drawing thing just isn't reliable? Oh, I suppose that plan really only works with a terminal-Silver Action? x.x

[eHalcyon]

I wanted to return 2 cards, but a lot of the time I either wouldn't get them or doing so would mean getting another Silver instead of HP and I already ended up with really too much Silver for a deck like this IMHO.

So yeah, I see how Quarry works here now, thank you. I don't really know what I was thinking about being ahead in the Amb war... must have somehow deluded myself into thinking a turn 1 buy is meaningfully "ahead" of a turn 2 buy or something. At turn 4 it seemed like I wouldn't need a second Amb (and I figured I didn't want one if I didn't need it because I figured an HP-rich deck eventually collides terminals a lot - but that's silly; winning the war early more than justifies a dead card late), and turns 5 and 6 I hit 5 and wasn't about to turn down HPs. But I'm still confused as to why the HPs did such a bad job of drawing and hitting 8. Maybe I should get more Menageries over Silver? Get a second Gold anyway since the deck drawing thing just isn't reliable? Oh, I suppose that plan really only works with a terminal-Silver Action? x.x

Extra Silver is not THAT bad.  And you can always choose not to buy anything at all -- that is indeed a valid option.  But you really should be aggressive in it.  Your very first play was only returning the single Estate.  Having it miss the reshuffle was bad luck though.  You need to turn down the HP in the short term so that your deck is better in the long run.

Yeah, it's hard to get the HP stack to hit $8 if you're missing the last piece.  Standard HP decks aim to draw Copper-Silver-Gold-X to reach $8, where X produces at least $2.  Possible choices in this kingdom are Cache, Counting House and Hoard.  Quarry can work (because you will usually pull in a second Copper or something) and Trade Route is possible as well.  TR might actually be one of the better choices, actually, because it is cheap and it gets you +Buy.

Hoard is a fine choice.  It gives you $2 and it produces more Gold, which is not a bad thing (especially in a slim deck like your opponent's).



Upon review, I think I might have tried skipping Ambassador altogether.  What about opening Quarry/Trade Route?  The opponent's Ambassador would ensure TR produced at least $1 to start (andif they skip Amb too, it's not like it's the end of the world).  Rush Hunting Party (just like you did).  Use the TR to eat the Estates and Copper that your opponent is throwing at you, and brush off the rest with mass HP.  The +Buy should help, especially paired with Quarry for easy double HP turns. 

Pick up a Hoard ASAP.  Use it to buy a Duchy and get your first Gold, bumping up TR to $2 and maybe trashing the Duchy with TR later if your HP stack can't handle it.  TR should eat the Quarry at some point as well.  With a big HP stack (I mean, you got 7 of them!) and TR you may be able to pull off some Province-Province turns.  Province-Duchy, certainly (but only if you have enough HPs to draw past Duchies).

It always feels weird to skip Amb, but I think it might be OK in this case.  I think it hurts more to try for Amb and lose.  But skipping it altogether here seems viable to me.  Am I crazy?

[dondon151]

The risk of skipping Ambassador is that there is always the chance that you can get swamped with unwanted cards.

[eHalcyon]

The risk of skipping Ambassador is that there is always the chance that you can get swamped with unwanted cards.

But with a strong HP stack, the unwanted extras could just be trashed with TR, no?

[dondon151]

Reactive play vs. proactive play: proactive play usually wins.

You are making an assumption that your engine is already strong enough to deal with incoming junk (probably Curses in this case). But you have to keep in mind that it gets progressively more difficult to buy the HPs in the first place as the deck becomes filled with Coppers and Estates. How many HPs do you need to reliably draw enough unique cards in your deck? 4? 6?