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Author Topic: Piledriving Estates  (Read 9218 times)

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ednever

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Piledriving Estates
« on: November 04, 2012, 01:10:45 pm »
+7

I've been meaning to write something on this for a while, and a game I just played inspired me to sit down and do it.

As we all know the game of Dominion ends in one of two conditions (or three if you read WW's article on winning by taking 50%+VP available on the table):
- When all the Provinces/Colonies are gone
- When three piles are empty

The fast the game ends immediately when the provinces are gone makes for rules like PPR and when to break PPR important.

Three pile games can usually be divided into three types:
1- One player is rushing piles to end the game
2- Both players are building engines (especially mirror engines) and so driving piles low as they both wait before they move into VP cards. As that nears the end players have to start greening to be ahead on their turn. If they are the other guy is forced to get ahead on their turn. If someone doesn't end their turn ahead, the other guy can choose not to buy VP and just end it on piles.
3- Curse-heavy games (especially Sea Hag or IGG) where one pile is curses and the attacks make it harder to get to provinces, causing Duchies or Estate pile empties to end the game


There is a third time that I've been seeing more and more in a subset of games.
It's a situation similar to #2, but usually only 1-2 piles are empty (if only one then the second is running low). Both players have started moving into Provinces and the game doesn't look like it will end on piles.

In games like this there is another 3-pile ending you need to watch out for: The Estate Piledrive.

If two piles are empty the game can be ended at any time with $16 and +7 buys (assuming a 2p game). Obviously if any Estates have been depleted it won't even require that much (examples: Swindler or Baron games).

Now $16, +7 buys sounds like a lot (You can just buy 2 provinces which should put you ahead anyway!), but these situations usually come about in engine games. Most common: Wharf, Grand Market and Bridge engines. In these games the other guy is usually able to buy two provinces on his turn as well. So your PPR often turns into PPPR (penultimate-penultimate-province-rule).

The key thing about piledriving Estates to end on piles is that, unlike forcing other 3-pile endings, you can do it when you are behind.

Often even more important than PDing Estates itself, is watching to make sure you don't set up your opponent to do it to you.

Works with:
- Baron (which draws down Estates)
- Bridge (One Bridge halves the price of Estates. Two makes them free)
- Highway (same reason as bridge. But you need to get the buys somewhere else)
- Wharf (Piles are usually running low anyway, and Wharf is effectively a +2 buy card)
- Grand Market (if you can get trashing going to play multiples in a turn. Every GM = 1 Estate)

Counters:
- Multi-player games where orchestrating this is a lot harder. But still something to watch out for when the opportunity comes up
- Non-engine games
- Games without +buy


Some examples:
Imagine this scenario:

- He is ahead by 6 points
- You buy two provinces
- He buys two provinces
Your turn.
There are 4 provinces left. He's ahead by 6 points. If you buy two provinces, he can likely buy two provinces on his turn and end it in the lead. Instead you could buy a province and a duchy and be ahead by 3 points. Then he is forced to buy 3 Duchies - and he's ahead by 6 again. Pretty soon neither of you will be able to double-province as your decks get greener and it turns into a crap-shot on who gets the right draw at the right time.

In a situation like this you need to look for a way to end it on your turn if there is any way you can. Pile driving Estates would do it: You get 8 points and pull ahead by 2 and the game ends.


Another example:
You are building a wharf engine. All of the Wharves and Worker's Villages are gone. Usually you want to build up your Gold now so you can start hammering provinces in another turn. You've fallen a little behind on green - the other guy picked up a province already to stop your ability to end it on piles. But wait: You draw $16 and you have tons of buys... Grab those Estates and end it before the end game even begins.


Here is the game that inspired this write-up:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/04/game-20121104-094009-db0118e9.html

In the game I see the double province turns coming. I was actually afraid Qbert would end it on piles. I pick up a province for insurance. And leave a 2 Hunting Parties. The only way for him to end on piles is to get 6 VP, pick up two HP (which is possible with Smugglers in play) and still empty another pile. I'm safe.

He picks up two provinces to get +6VP ahead. He also picks up a HP with his Smuggler, which was his only real mistake.
My problem is I have 5 Grand Markets -> That gives me 6 buys. But I need to pick up a Hunting Party and 8 Estates - I need 9 buys.
I use my Smuggler to pick up the last Hunting Party, and then draw it into my hand. Now I'm only short 2 buys.
I play my Salvager on the HP for +1 buy, and then Spice Merchant a Silver for another.
+ 8 buys and enough $s to pick up all 8 Estates.

Here is another example where King's Courted Barons caused the Estate pile to empty:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/04/game-20121104-105402-7312fe6e.html

And another example (Colony game with Bridge and Possession):
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/04/game-20121104-130749-3c9fa767.html

And another: (Grand Market + Conspirators)
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/04/game-20121104-142759-13d30393.html


I wish we had Council Room to pull up more games that end in an Estate piledrive. Anyone else have examples? Or types of games when this happens?

Ed
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 05:29:23 pm by ednever »
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shark_bait

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2012, 01:26:22 pm »
0

Nice Article!  This is a more specified version of an article that I have on the horizon.  Baron is another example I can think of.  It's a bit tougher because engines usually aren't build around Baron, but with $4 in hand with Baron, you can get 3 Estates in a turn.  That is nothing to scoff at when trying to quickly empty the Estate pile. 

Also consider Highway.  You no longer need cash to buy the Estates, playing 2 and having enough buys is a very easy way to get to the bottom of that pile.
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DG

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2012, 01:31:39 pm »
0

This is two player stuff. It's a lot harder to control the endgame in multi-player generally and you specifically have to buy more estates and face more competition for key cards.

Goons are naturally suited to emptying three cheap piles with many buys. King's courts with any market type card can generate buys and coins. Swindlers can empty piles and deplete the estates, setting up an early finish if you can muster the buys/gains.
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ednever

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2012, 01:55:36 pm »
0

Just added on update with a game I just played where Baron was key: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/04/game-20121104-105402-7312fe6e.html

Also added some 'works with/against'. And added the point about Multi-player and Highway.

Ed
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 02:00:16 pm by ednever »
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ConMan

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2012, 06:49:14 pm »
+4

So your PPR often turns into PPPR (penultimate-penultimate-province-rule).
You mean the APPR - Antepenultimate Province Rule? If you make it to the PAPPR (Preantepenultimate Province Rule), then you've got some wonderful mindgames going on.
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jomini

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2012, 09:13:58 am »
+2

Remember when considering pile driving estates, you can use card gainers to get around needing the +buys/coin. Baron is an obvious choice, but Iron works, Workshop, etc. can all help you here. Less obvious candidates can include Develop, Forge (if you have 2 coin cards in deck), Feast (e.g. if you have a lean deck and you've been using Kc/Feast to stock up on engine components), and Haggler/Border village.

A more extreme case of this is pile driving both the curses and the estates. That requires a whopping 18 buys and a net 2 or 3 VP lead; mostly this means some sort of engine and very often Kc (Tr/Procession) or Goons in play. The up shot is that it tends to be a very unexpected move and you can completely baffle someone by picking up a duchy (instead of an engine component) and then double pile out for the lead. This can become particularly easy with Followers in play. Followers downs both the estate and curse piles and can give you a quick VP lead.

A curse pile drive can also substitute for an estate pile drive more often than you think. For one it requires only enough coin to get a VP lead (e.g. 8 for a province or 13 for Prov/Duchy). For another you don't have to buy them all in one turn - if you have the buy advantage (e.g. opponent has exactly 2 buys), you can snag 4 curses this turn and then end the game next turn with a Province/Duchy/Curse pile out. The opponent must move into green to counter the threat (so they stop building engine economy sooner than they'd like), you can then trash some (e.g. steward) or all (e.g. chapel, forge) of the curses out of deck next turn and keep building for a stronger megaturn or just pile out the curses if you can win. Lastly, Watchtower is just insane here - trash the inbound curses and win.

Another trick pile is Rats. If you have a Rats in hand, another Rats in draw deck/discard/hand, and no other cards in draw deck or discard, you can auto-pile the Rats pile. Play a Rats, draw a Rats (if it isn't in your hand already), and gain a Rats - lather rinse and repeat. Yeah this trashes anything in your hand (so VP and Treasure go poof), but you can still manage a win because: Island/Haven/Native Village can hide cards from the Rats, Fortress can be trashed repetitively, Rats can't trash VP chips, Action - VP cards already in play are safe (e.g. Nobles, Great Hall), Harems played with a Black Market are safe, and you still have your buy phase to pick up VP cards. You can gain the Rats mid-action phase for the surprise move; you can also go far by draining the estates between card gainers (e.g. Tr/Armory) and action-coin (e.g. Tr/Harvest/Fishing Village) for a surprise 3 pile ending when only one pile is already depleted.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 09:16:04 am by jomini »
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Rabid

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2012, 04:49:07 pm »
0

Thanks for the article.
It prompted me to end this game on estates over 2 turns:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/05/game-20121105-134240-a81b4201.html
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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2012, 05:30:37 pm »
+2

The more I play, the more I find myself taking this route (or piledriving some other cheap pile).  Funnily, I hear whines from sore losers more when I do this than with any other strategy. So upset that they built their gigantic Grand Market empire and I didn't want to see them do anything with it... I think knowing when to pile out is one of the fundamentals of advanced play that separates the high level players on Isotropic.  You only have to win by 1 point, and an Estate can do that easily enough given the situation. 

I am interested in seeing how the Rats pile out method jomini mentions works in practice.  Seems like it'd have mixed results based on the games I have played with that card so far.
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clb

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2012, 08:08:43 pm »
+1

The 3+ player situation both makes it harder to control and more likely to end on 3 piles. Of the 5 non-2-player games I played this weekend, 4 of them ended on 3 piles. The only one to end on Provinces was a 3-player game and had the Estates and Duchies gone, too.
One example was a Fool's Gold board with Storeroom - everyone got 2 or 3 copies of FG (not the best idea, really). But one player was perceived as having a long-term tactical advantage, so it became a mad dash as everyone else dove quickly into the green to build a buffer before the other player walked away with the game.
Any time there are two popular cards (popular, not necessarily good or strong) on the board with 3 or especially 4 players, 3-piling is a very real threat, and you may wnat to start picking up Duchies very, very early.
One often-forgotten nuance is that even though the VP piles have more cards in them for 3+ players, the kingdom cards do not, so they can evaporate quickly.
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jomini

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2012, 09:52:55 pm »
+1

The more I play, the more I find myself taking this route (or piledriving some other cheap pile).  Funnily, I hear whines from sore losers more when I do this than with any other strategy. So upset that they built their gigantic Grand Market empire and I didn't want to see them do anything with it... I think knowing when to pile out is one of the fundamentals of advanced play that separates the high level players on Isotropic.  You only have to win by 1 point, and an Estate can do that easily enough given the situation. 

I am interested in seeing how the Rats pile out method jomini mentions works in practice.  Seems like it'd have mixed results based on the games I have played with that card so far.

The Rats autopile is niche. I've done it successfully on an Iw/Island/Rats board, we split the Islands 5-3 (me) and set out building engines (I think it was a village for the other pile). In any event, we ended up being nearly two piles out when I managed to draw my whole deck, Iw two rats, and then draw the Rats. Auto-piling the rats left me enough cash to buy the last card for game end.

The other time, I've managed to get it to work was when I had an uncontested Nobles engine (opponent built a different, more efficient engine) and I bought two Rats and two estates. My opponent had his first double province turn, but I piled out Rats and bought six estates to win by 3.

Things have to align a lot to make it viable, but I'd definitely keep it in mind if it is a mirror image strong engine match (particularly if you have: nobles out, heavy action-cash, or second player to win a 0-0 tie), Islands are out and viable, goons are viable with rats out, or you have fortress/rats/engines as an option.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 08:15:32 am by jomini »
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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2012, 04:58:59 am »
0

Great stuff, which of course means you get to have people pick over details.

- Wharf (Piles are usually running low anyway, and Wharf is effectively a +2 buy card)

This is one of the cases where that approximation might be least helpful.  If you're looking at 8 buys then you're in deck drawing territory, and if you're drawing your deck then Durations become about as useful as their one-turn effect.  Wharf muddies the waters slightly as its Duration effect is probably why you've drawn your deck, but for the +Buy part you'd rather have a straight +2 Buys.

we split the Islands 6-4 (me)

It doesn't affect your story much, but should that be 5-3 or 6-2?
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jomini

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2012, 08:14:42 am »
0

Quote
It doesn't affect your story much, but should that be 5-3 or 6-2?

Sorry that would be 5-3, I had 2 more by dint of having been first player.
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Powerman

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2012, 05:56:54 pm »
0

Piling out curses is often an easier path to victory due to not needing bucks.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/07/game-20121107-145523-bcbf20c1.html
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zahlman

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2012, 09:13:00 pm »
+2

Less obvious candidates can include Develop, Forge (if you have 2 coin cards in deck)

I eagerly await the first game log where the game is decided by Forging two Poor Houses into an Estate.
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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2012, 09:14:38 pm »
0

Forging a single Duchess (or Pearl Diver) into an Estate is more likely though. I would expect there's games where you use Forge to trash out a bunch of stuff, but in the endgame are just using Forge to cannibalize engine cards for VP anyway.
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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2012, 09:19:10 am »
0

Great stuff, which of course means you get to have people pick over details.

- Wharf (Piles are usually running low anyway, and Wharf is effectively a +2 buy card)

This is one of the cases where that approximation might be least helpful.  If you're looking at 8 buys then you're in deck drawing territory, and if you're drawing your deck then Durations become about as useful as their one-turn effect.  Wharf muddies the waters slightly as its Duration effect is probably why you've drawn your deck, but for the +Buy part you'd rather have a straight +2 Buys.

If you're consistently playing a Wharf each turn (so you have at least two Wharves in your deck), then you'll have the +1 Buy from last turn and the +1 Buy from this turn, while only playing a single card this turn.
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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2012, 08:04:18 pm »
+1

I don't really have much to add, but wanted to say thanks for helping me win this game:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/12/game-20121112-160209-4b482998.html

I'm not sure if I played optimally, but it was awesome to actually use those buys for good use. :)
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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2012, 09:48:47 pm »
0

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2012, 03:54:19 am »
+1

Less obvious candidates can include Develop, Forge (if you have 2 coin cards in deck)

I eagerly await the first game log where the game is decided by Forging two Poor Houses into an Estate.

Forge 8 of them into a Province.
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Titandrake

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2012, 03:06:14 am »
+2

Something which I realized after Rabid implicitly pointed it out to me is that you don't need to end the game in 1 turn either. In fact, when done properly it's usually done over multiple turns. For instance, picking up engine pieces on the side while buying a Province advances both towards a 3-pile and a Province ending.

However, you can also do the same with Estates. Here's a board where I get a lead by going double-Tact. I have plenty of buys, and a decent amount of money, but not enough to empty Estates. However, because I haven't bought many Victory cards yet, I can empty Estates over 2 turns knowing that my deck won't stall, closing out the game before there's any chance for my opponent to catch up.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/20/game-20121120-235825-2e5201c9.html
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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2012, 04:21:55 am »
0

- Wharf (Piles are usually running low anyway, and Wharf is effectively a +2 buy card)
This is one of the cases where that approximation might be least helpful.  If you're looking at 8 buys then you're in deck drawing territory, and if you're drawing your deck then Durations become about as useful as their one-turn effect.  Wharf muddies the waters slightly as its Duration effect is probably why you've drawn your deck, but for the +Buy part you'd rather have a straight +2 Buys.
If you're consistently playing a Wharf each turn (so you have at least two Wharves in your deck), then you'll have the +1 Buy from last turn and the +1 Buy from this turn, while only playing a single card this turn.
So you get a maximum of +1 Buy for each Wharf in your deck; if you can draw your deck anyway then you would be better off with non-duration cards that provided a straight +2 Buys, because you can play them every turn.
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zahlman

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2012, 07:57:43 am »
0

Something which I realized after Rabid implicitly pointed it out to me is that you don't need to end the game in 1 turn either. In fact, when done properly it's usually done over multiple turns. For instance, picking up engine pieces on the side while buying a Province advances both towards a 3-pile and a Province ending.

However, you can also do the same with Estates. Here's a board where I get a lead by going double-Tact. I have plenty of buys, and a decent amount of money, but not enough to empty Estates. However, because I haven't bought many Victory cards yet, I can empty Estates over 2 turns knowing that my deck won't stall, closing out the game before there's any chance for my opponent to catch up.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/20/game-20121120-235825-2e5201c9.html

I have definitely made plans for doing this sort of thing across at least 3 turns before.
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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2012, 08:56:15 am »
0

It's more pile-crawling than pile-driving estates but expands on Titandrake's post:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/21/game-20121121-055232-224cb8d0.html
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ednever

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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2012, 06:33:35 pm »
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Another example.

This time in a single turn made possible from my opponent taking the last City to empty the second pile - both allowing for a game end on an Estate pile-out, and giving me the buys to pick up 9 cards -> 8 estates

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/06/game-20121206-153114-34c6df29.html

Ed
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Re: Piledriving Estates
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2012, 11:59:04 am »
0

FWIW, I'd add a category 4: the surprise mega-buyout.  I guess this sort of falls under your category #2, but the point being that you have to be cognizant of these things even when nobody's really bought any green at all yet.  From my first round DS Championship matchup:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/03/game-20121203-183901-f7c361e1.html

(In which University gets a special mention for the "watch out for piles" theme.)
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