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Author Topic: Mystic  (Read 19819 times)

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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Mystic
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2012, 03:29:09 pm »
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I don't think that's a proper analogy. Once you've activated one Conspirator, you've activated all of them, whereas with Mystic, you have to inspect for each one to guarantee the draw.

But on the other hand, Mystic and Pearl Diver both give you side benefits that aren't contingent on the combo. Even when you put them together, you've got flexibility. You don't have to bring up the bottom card of your deck if you'd rather wish for something you really need at the moment.

Besides, the analogy doesn't rest directly on how the cards play; it rests on how you BUY them, and whether it's a worthwhile use of your buying power. Sure you could fuel a long Conspirator chain with a single Village, but you're not just going to buy a single Village and trust your luck, so it's sort of a moot point.

Now you can maybe buy a couple more Conspirators than Villages and get away with it; especially if you had other support. But then it would seem you can just as well have more Mystics than Pearl Divers! Especially since the worst-case scenario of too many Mystics is still pretty good (guaranteed $2 and extra cards if you get lucky and/or your Mystics collide) while the worst-case scenario for Conspirator collisions is horrifying.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 03:41:29 pm by WheresMyElephant »
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Powerman

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Re: Mystic
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2012, 04:26:38 pm »
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I think the best comparison for Mystic is Market.  Basically you are trading ~.5 cards and a buy for $1.  If you're lucky, you'll trade a buy for a buck which is normally a good deal.  If you're unlucky, you'll trade a card and a buy for a buck which is normally not so good of a deal.  But on average, you'll be playing a card that similar in power to Market.

If you have good chance to always make it work, it will be stronger... if you are completely guessing, chances are it will be slightly weaker on average than a Market.
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Markov Chain

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Re: Mystic
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2012, 08:55:28 pm »
+1

Other Synergy
Village/Draw Up To - The benefit is guaranteed as you will just draw up to X amount of cards anyways making it more economical.

I would say that "draw up to" wastes the wish, and is not a good combo.  If you play Village/Mystic/Watchtower, you will have six cards in hand whether you guess right or not, just as if you played Village/non-drawer/Watchtower.  If you play Village/Mystic/Jack, you do get a slight extra chance to let Jack skip a card; if you guess silver and get it, then Jack can skip the second card in your deck, while if you get copper instead, Jack can skip that copper.

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clb

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Re: Mystic
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2012, 09:03:24 pm »
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Other Synergy
Village/Draw Up To - The benefit is guaranteed as you will just draw up to X amount of cards anyways making it more economical.

I would say that "draw up to" wastes the wish, and is not a good combo.  If you play Village/Mystic/Watchtower, you will have six cards in hand whether you guess right or not, just as if you played Village/non-drawer/Watchtower.  If you play Village/Mystic/Jack, you do get a slight extra chance to let Jack skip a card; if you guess silver and get it, then Jack can skip the second card in your deck, while if you get copper instead, Jack can skip that copper.
The benefit in this case is not so much the extra draw from the non-terminal, non-draw card, but the virtual money. Village/Watchtower and Village/Mystic/Watchtower draw the same # of cards, but the second has free money.
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shark_bait

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Re: Mystic
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2012, 09:47:48 pm »
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To make Village/Draw Up to work really shine, you need village support because you want to be able to play the cards you draw.  You can't do treasure unless you have Black Market.  So that leaves us with actions for getting cash.  The benefit Mystic brings is in being a CANTRIP.  This means you only need 1 village played before your "Draw up to".  If you have terminal virtual cash like many actions, you need significantly more village support which is often harder to obtain and even harder to get together all in the same hand.  So with that said, Festival might serve better because it gives the same cash, is a village and gives the +buy, but Mystic also has the benefit that if you are missing a part of the combo you can go for broke and hope that it is the top card of the deck.
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jomini

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Re: Mystic
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2012, 11:48:25 am »
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A couple of notes:
1. Some cards like Mandarin do work with Wishing well, you just need to play them twice. That still is a crappy tradeoff (13 coins of value in 3 cards to get the effect of a 12 coins worth in two cards). **Thanks Lfn for catching the error.
2. Mystic is good when you are gaining cards and have no draw deck/discard. Say you chapel down and play an Iw, a Mystic can draw the card you just gained and play it this turn. Any time you have an empty drawdeck or discard, Mystic is an assured hit. This can also work with mandatory discards into emptiness - e.g. play Horse Traders, discard 2 golds, play 2 Mystics, and draw 2 golds. Conversely, Mystic isn't too hot if you drawdeck/discard empty and can't put cards in there, potentially it can becomes just an overpriced duchess!
3. Mystic also works very well with ultra-lean decks. Take a golden deck of Bishop/Mystic/Silver/Gold/Province/Province - you can always guess the sixth card (in other ultra-lean decks you just have high odds), when you, rarely, don't draw the Mystic, you can just bish a Province, buy a gold (or duchy), and then bish the gold. Again, you need to be careful that you can actually make use of the Mystic's potential draw, otherwise, you are just overpaying for silver.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 12:42:39 pm by jomini »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Mystic
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2012, 11:52:33 am »
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1. Some cards like Pearl Diver do work with Wishing well, you just need to play them twice. That still is a crappy tradeoff (7 coins in 3 cards to get the effect of a 5 coin card).

Uh, what? The second Pearl Diver draws the card that the first Pearl Diver puts on your deck. That doesn't help Wishing Well.
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jomini

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Re: Mystic
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2012, 12:36:47 pm »
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1. Some cards like Pearl Diver do work with Wishing well, you just need to play them twice. That still is a crappy tradeoff (7 coins in 3 cards to get the effect of a 5 coin card).

Uh, what? The second Pearl Diver draws the card that the first Pearl Diver puts on your deck. That doesn't help Wishing Well.

Ehh meant a different card and missed that when I edited things up. Something like Mandarin, B-crat, Armory, Grave robber, Scavenger, Count, etc. all work with Wishing Well if you play them twice. This is most obvious if you add Wwell to a deck with Tr. Tr -> Count for instance lets you know 2 cards deep and hit the Wwell 100%.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Mystic
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2012, 01:42:01 pm »
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1. Some cards like Pearl Diver do work with Wishing well, you just need to play them twice. That still is a crappy tradeoff (7 coins in 3 cards to get the effect of a 5 coin card).

Uh, what? The second Pearl Diver draws the card that the first Pearl Diver puts on your deck. That doesn't help Wishing Well.

Ehh meant a different card and missed that when I edited things up. Something like Mandarin, B-crat, Armory, Grave robber, Scavenger, Count, etc. all work with Wishing Well if you play them twice. This is most obvious if you add Wwell to a deck with Tr. Tr -> Count for instance lets you know 2 cards deep and hit the Wwell 100%.

Once you've got a setup where you're playing two terminal actions before a Wishing Well, that no longer qualifies as a combo, Throne Room notwithstanding.
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jomini

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Re: Mystic
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2012, 09:34:25 pm »
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Quote
Once you've got a setup where you're playing two terminal actions before a Wishing Well, that no longer qualifies as a combo, Throne Room notwithstanding.

Ehh, it is a minor point, but I do think you have to remember that Kc/Tr/Procession can all easily have setups where Wwell is a better option than silver. For strong engines (e.g. Goons, colony megaturn), I'll often gladly go Tr/cheap cantrip (like Wwell) just because it makes it easier to manage my action balance. About a third to a half of Tr/Wwell games will have some sort of combo possible with a single card top decker.

I do think the much more important point is that Mystic works really well when you control your discard. Having a "draw your entire deck" deck can allow Mystic to work like a cantrip if you have any discard for benefit cards (e.g. Vault, Secret Chamber, Horse Traders, Hamlet, Cellar, Baron).

I haven't tried it yet, and don't suspect that it is that strong, but is Mystic/Stash/Trasher any good? You should hit Mystic a really high percent of the time, but I suspect the conflicting price points, need for +buy, and setup time make it not so hot.
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