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[Robz888]

I'm excited for robz's rebuttal, but in the meantime

I, I just did...

[Grujah]

Galz, Ins is right, there was pressure. I did put myself up on L-1 there.


Not sure about this confession of Robz.. I would have proceed with the deal - that's the whole point on agreeing on one. I'd find it scummy if one didn't stick to his end of the bargain. Robz admitted to lying. Does that set him free? I dont know.

Can we get vote: shraeye ? Ashersky I know has no chance of going down now. I'd actually lynch anybody cept my town lynches Galz, Volt and Cuzz.


PPE: I do not like his cry for "do not lynch me, please". Vote: Robz888

[Robz888]

unvote
To Robz himself: His "I won't get lynched" reeks of O's "You all won't lynch me anyway" in M-VIII where O (and Robz) were scum. Basically it came down to: To many town were inactive or thought O was just being O - asinine, but not scummy - and since he wasn't going to be bussed hard, there was no chance he would be lynched.

I've -never- understood that attitude. If you don't want to claim, that's one thing. But to act like there are enough people in the game that don't want you dead speaks towards knowing you've got people who will have your back. Robz then came out and claimed VT... Now, if he were a PR, MAYBE I could see a "I'm too important and valuable, so won't get lynched" attitude... But that's not the case here.

So I'm having a really hard time here. I hate bring wrong, though it's often inevitable. From an emotional standpoint, Robz has given me a town feel. But on actual substance I just don't draw that same conclusion.

So... I'm going to return to Vote: Robz. If I were to put a percentage on it, I would read 65% scum. But that's higher than I have on anybody else, and I'm comfortable enough with my read to keep my name on this wagon.

I rebutted the Grujah part.

For the other part, I didn't want to give away unnecessary information. Neither did Jo, I see now that's a possible interpretation of him not claiming. Saying what I am is not helpful for the town. But I don't want to die.

If I give you a town feel, then trust that I am town. Grujah's actions should not disqualify him from being mafia.

[Cuzz]

unvote
To Robz himself: His "I won't get lynched" reeks of O's "You all won't lynch me anyway" in M-VIII where O (and Robz) were scum. Basically it came down to: To many town were inactive or thought O was just being O - asinine, but not scummy - and since he wasn't going to be bussed hard, there was no chance he would be lynched.

I've -never- understood that attitude. If you don't want to claim, that's one thing. But to act like there are enough people in the game that don't want you dead speaks towards knowing you've got people who will have your back. Robz then came out and claimed VT... Now, if he were a PR, MAYBE I could see a "I'm too important and valuable, so won't get lynched" attitude... But that's not the case here.

So I'm having a really hard time here. I hate bring wrong, though it's often inevitable. From an emotional standpoint, Robz has given me a town feel. But on actual substance I just don't draw that same conclusion.

So... I'm going to return to Vote: Robz. If I were to put a percentage on it, I would read 65% scum. But that's higher than I have on anybody else, and I'm comfortable enough with my read to keep my name on this wagon.

I rebutted the Grujah part.

For the other part, I didn't want to give away unnecessary information. Neither did Jo, I see now that's a possible interpretation of him not claiming. Saying what I am is not helpful for the town. But I don't want to die.

If I give you a town feel, then trust that I am town. Grujah's actions should not disqualify him from being mafia.

Wait, wait, wait... are you trying to go back on your VT claim now??

[Galzria]

@Galz no I don't understand because Grujah is at L-2. That IS pressure.

@Grujah multiple games can't recall any off the top of my head, I was the first instance of it I believe in M2 and I was town. But it was way later in the game and I was 100% sure Robz was scum.

Here's why it's not pressure:

Grujah was at L-2. Robz was at L-1 with TWO people claiming intent to hammer. The pressure wasn't on Grujah. Robz' himself has (now) confessed to having a town read on Grujah, but only being on his wagon because it's not himself. So explain to me why it made sense for Scum Grujah to come out, when intent to hammer Robz' has already been stated, and say "If he's not scum, lynch me in a 1-1 trade"? Robz' lynch was already highly likely to happen. It's not like Grujah saying that added any weight to the argument against Robz. It did 1 thing, and 1 thing only - it put his name in direct contrast to Robz. That's it. Now if Robz is lynched and flips town (something scum Grujah would KNOW is going to happen), Grujah is in deep ****. Had he simply not made the statement, Robz was STILL likely to get lynched, except then if he flipped town people would scrutinize the entire wagon (probably myself and Volt most heavily).

His actions from a scum perspective make 0 sense. None. Now, look at it from a town Grujah perspective: Ok, it's still bad play. I think we all agree with that. But I've seen SOOOO many townie's express ridiculous 100% certainty before (myself included, and you, Insomniac) - whether they're right or wrong. It's absolutely something a townie would say/do - even if they're wrong to do so.

So you have Scum = no plausibility, Town = plausibility. Grujah opening his mouth and tying himself so directly to Robz for NO reason, when he absolutely didn't have to do or say ANYTHING, only looks townie to me.

[Insomniac]

@Galz no I don't understand because Grujah is at L-2. That IS pressure.

@Grujah multiple games can't recall any off the top of my head, I was the first instance of it I believe in M2 and I was town. But it was way later in the game and I was 100% sure Robz was scum.

Here's why it's not pressure:

Grujah was at L-2. Robz was at L-1 with TWO people claiming intent to hammer. The pressure wasn't on Grujah. Robz' himself has (now) confessed to having a town read on Grujah, but only being on his wagon because it's not himself. So explain to me why it made sense for Scum Grujah to come out, when intent to hammer Robz' has already been stated, and say "If he's not scum, lynch me in a 1-1 trade"? Robz' lynch was already highly likely to happen. It's not like Grujah saying that added any weight to the argument against Robz. It did 1 thing, and 1 thing only - it put his name in direct contrast to Robz. That's it. Now if Robz is lynched and flips town (something scum Grujah would KNOW is going to happen), Grujah is in deep ****. Had he simply not made the statement, Robz was STILL likely to get lynched, except then if he flipped town people would scrutinize the entire wagon (probably myself and Volt most heavily).

His actions from a scum perspective make 0 sense. None. Now, look at it from a town Grujah perspective: Ok, it's still bad play. I think we all agree with that. But I've seen SOOOO many townie's express ridiculous 100% certainty before (myself included, and you, Insomniac) - whether they're right or wrong. It's absolutely something a townie would say/do - even if they're wrong to do so.

So you have Scum = no plausibility, Town = plausibility. Grujah opening his mouth and tying himself so directly to Robz for NO reason, when he absolutely didn't have to do or say ANYTHING, only looks townie to me.

Because if Robz is town we absolutely won't lynch Grujah tomorrow.

[Robz888]

Exactly what Insomniac said, this is where Galzria's arugment falls apart. GRUJAH WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN HED RESPONSIBLE IF I FLIP TOWN. (Nor should he!!!!!!!!!!)

[Grujah]

About pressure:
I genreally knew that Robz is way mroe likely to go down than me, esp with people announcing the hammer, I wasn't feeling too pressured (a little, maybe) at the time when it was 6-5, before any of these things.

Only pressure on me was when I voted for myself and L-1-ed myself, Cuzz or somebody else could have found my action extra scummy as Ins apparently did (though, Ins is my prime scum guy) - I was worried at that time. Other than that it was a gambit, to see Robz reaction and so.

I would have stuck if he agreed to stick too, but he obviously wouldn't.

[Captain_Frisk]

Grujah could totally offer the trade, it was never going to actually happen, no matter what. He's whacky, and he's whacky as scum or as town. This should not disqualify him from being scum.

Please someone unvote me. Do not kill me.

This is the rebuttal?

[Insomniac]

ALSO galz when Grujah offered it one person said they would hammer Robz if no other lynch happened before deadline (Eevee), now that the deal has gone away Cuzz expressed the intent to hammer but there was only one person who had mentioned hammering Robz and it wasn't an offer.

AND I already said myself that I was the first person who offered such a trade in M2, and it was bad there too.  AND Grujah admitted that he was feeling pressure when he made the offer.

[Galzria]

@Galz no I don't understand because Grujah is at L-2. That IS pressure.

@Grujah multiple games can't recall any off the top of my head, I was the first instance of it I believe in M2 and I was town. But it was way later in the game and I was 100% sure Robz was scum.

Here's why it's not pressure:

Grujah was at L-2. Robz was at L-1 with TWO people claiming intent to hammer. The pressure wasn't on Grujah. Robz' himself has (now) confessed to having a town read on Grujah, but only being on his wagon because it's not himself. So explain to me why it made sense for Scum Grujah to come out, when intent to hammer Robz' has already been stated, and say "If he's not scum, lynch me in a 1-1 trade"? Robz' lynch was already highly likely to happen. It's not like Grujah saying that added any weight to the argument against Robz. It did 1 thing, and 1 thing only - it put his name in direct contrast to Robz. That's it. Now if Robz is lynched and flips town (something scum Grujah would KNOW is going to happen), Grujah is in deep ****. Had he simply not made the statement, Robz was STILL likely to get lynched, except then if he flipped town people would scrutinize the entire wagon (probably myself and Volt most heavily).

His actions from a scum perspective make 0 sense. None. Now, look at it from a town Grujah perspective: Ok, it's still bad play. I think we all agree with that. But I've seen SOOOO many townie's express ridiculous 100% certainty before (myself included, and you, Insomniac) - whether they're right or wrong. It's absolutely something a townie would say/do - even if they're wrong to do so.

So you have Scum = no plausibility, Town = plausibility. Grujah opening his mouth and tying himself so directly to Robz for NO reason, when he absolutely didn't have to do or say ANYTHING, only looks townie to me.

Because if Robz is town we absolutely won't lynch Grujah tomorrow.

You're missing the point entirely.

Whether we do or not is irrelevant. The point is that Grujah put his name out there - specifically HIS name - and tied it to a lynch that was likely to happen anyway. Why? You won't answer that question (which I asked last time). There WAS plausibility for town Grujah to make that statement, and NONE for scum Grujah to. None at all.

[Grujah]

When I voted for myself, cuz anybody could have read me as scum and hammered.*  (correction, on Ins).

Only mild pressure on L-2, when I made the deal.



no love for shareye , nobody?

[Robz888]

Frisk my rebuttals litter the previous two pages. I'm going a little crazy here, sorry.

Cuzz, you aren't hammering yet are you? Please give advance notice. Or have I convinced you? Grujah is a better lynch, really.

[Eevee]

Unvote
I agree with Galzria. Grujah wouldn't do that if he was scum. I don't know, I'm super torn about Robz, and don't particularly want to vote for anyone else because it might trigger a nolynch.

[Insomniac]

@Galz no I don't understand because Grujah is at L-2. That IS pressure.

@Grujah multiple games can't recall any off the top of my head, I was the first instance of it I believe in M2 and I was town. But it was way later in the game and I was 100% sure Robz was scum.

Here's why it's not pressure:

Grujah was at L-2. Robz was at L-1 with TWO people claiming intent to hammer. The pressure wasn't on Grujah. Robz' himself has (now) confessed to having a town read on Grujah, but only being on his wagon because it's not himself. So explain to me why it made sense for Scum Grujah to come out, when intent to hammer Robz' has already been stated, and say "If he's not scum, lynch me in a 1-1 trade"? Robz' lynch was already highly likely to happen. It's not like Grujah saying that added any weight to the argument against Robz. It did 1 thing, and 1 thing only - it put his name in direct contrast to Robz. That's it. Now if Robz is lynched and flips town (something scum Grujah would KNOW is going to happen), Grujah is in deep ****. Had he simply not made the statement, Robz was STILL likely to get lynched, except then if he flipped town people would scrutinize the entire wagon (probably myself and Volt most heavily).

His actions from a scum perspective make 0 sense. None. Now, look at it from a town Grujah perspective: Ok, it's still bad play. I think we all agree with that. But I've seen SOOOO many townie's express ridiculous 100% certainty before (myself included, and you, Insomniac) - whether they're right or wrong. It's absolutely something a townie would say/do - even if they're wrong to do so.

So you have Scum = no plausibility, Town = plausibility. Grujah opening his mouth and tying himself so directly to Robz for NO reason, when he absolutely didn't have to do or say ANYTHING, only looks townie to me.

Because if Robz is town we absolutely won't lynch Grujah tomorrow.

You're missing the point entirely.

Whether we do or not is irrelevant. The point is that Grujah put his name out there - specifically HIS name - and tied it to a lynch that was likely to happen anyway. Why? You won't answer that question (which I asked last time). There WAS plausibility for town Grujah to make that statement, and NONE for scum Grujah to. None at all.

...I keep answering it...Grujah was under pressure and scum Grujah can gain town cred for doing it and knows for sure we won't lynch him tomorrow.  Are you reading my replies? For that matter are you reading this game even?

[Eevee]

The problem with a shraeye lynch is that he hasn't been anywhere on the forums and even announced a VLA + he could be a power role.

[Robz888]

When I voted for myself, cuz anybody could have read me as scum and hammered.*  (correction, on Ins).

Only mild pressure on L-2, when I made the deal.



no love for shareye , nobody?

The problem with shraeye is that he's away this week. Also, it seems impossible to lynch anyone but who we've got here. Although if 7 people say right now "Shraeye!" I'm in.

[Eevee]

Insomniac, I think you are wrong and Galzria is right. Fwiw.

[Galzria]

ALSO galz when Grujah offered it one person said they would hammer Robz if no other lynch happened before deadline (Eevee), now that the deal has gone away Cuzz expressed the intent to hammer but there was only one person who had mentioned hammering Robz and it wasn't an offer.

AND I already said myself that I was the first person who offered such a trade in M2, and it was bad there too.  AND Grujah admitted that he was feeling pressure when he made the offer.

You should check your facts again Insomniac.

Robz, fwiw I will hammer you just before the deadline if nolynch is the alternative. I don't like archetype lynch.

can we make a shraeye lynch happen?

shraeye is rapidly climbing up my suspicion list with his silence at this crucial juncture in the game. I will absolutely hammer Robz before my class at 2:30 if we are headed to no-lynch, but for now I'll Vote: shraeye and see who joins me.

But yeah, he is awfully quite for his usual monster-posts [shareye, that is]. We're not gonna get a new lynch in 3 hours. Should be put under scrutiny tomorrow - and hard.

I am kinda confident that Robz will turn scum actually. I'd be willing to trade 1-1 with him, if he agrees to such terms (i.e. we lynch one and other ones self-votes tomorrow).

[Robz888]

Unvote
I agree with Galzria. Grujah wouldn't do that if he was scum. I don't know, I'm super torn about Robz, and don't particularly want to vote for anyone else because it might trigger a nolynch.

I keep answering this, and so does Insomniac. He absolutely could do that if he was scum; he will never be held accountable for it.

Here, I'll do it. If we lynch Grujah now and he's not scum, you can kill me tomorrow. I promise, I pledge, whatever.

It won't happen.

[Eevee]

I'm too lazy to setup, but the thing is with shraeye we are hitting a power role as often if not more often than we are scum. At least with Robz we won't have that problem.

[Robz888]

It doesn't matter if there was pressure against him or not! It's an easy thing to say; it will never be upheld.

Could we kill someone at random who's not here and is not Grujah or me? Would that work? Shraeye or whatever.

[Insomniac]

Ok Galz so 2 people expressed that they were going to hammer Robz IF WE HIT DEADLINE. Not because they wanted a Robz lynch but because they don't want no lynch.


@Eevee: Thats fine you always think I'm wrong and yet somehow I end up being right a good portion of the time, you should probably go look at how often I lynch town vs how often I lynch scum. I'm no PPS but.

[Robz888]

Ugh, I AM A TOWN POWER ROLE.

[Cuzz]

Frisk my rebuttals litter the previous two pages. I'm going a little crazy here, sorry.

Cuzz, you aren't hammering yet are you? Please give advance notice. Or have I convinced you? Grujah is a better lynch, really.

You have certainly not convinced me that you're not scum, no. I agree with Galz, but first I want you to answer my question. Are you still claiming VT? You said some very cryptic stuff here:

For the other part, I didn't want to give away unnecessary information. Neither did Jo, I see now that's a possible interpretation of him not claiming. Saying what I am is not helpful for the town. But I don't want to die.

that I don't know if I'm misinterpreting.

PPE: not misinterpreting