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Author Topic: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?  (Read 5703 times)

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Jive Junkie

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Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« on: October 01, 2012, 03:02:04 pm »
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Due to the fact that a lot of my gamer friends own a bunch of Dominion sets, I only have Intrigue and Dark Ages (which I mainly bought to fill in gaps in my friends' collections, and well, because Dark Ages is amazing). However, I've recently gotten a couple people interested in trying out Dominion for the first time. Two of them are somewhat casual strategy gamers (think Ticket to Ride, Race for the Galaxy), and one hasn't played much beyond the traditional stuff (Monopoly, Risk, etc.). Anybody want to suggest some good kingdoms with just these two sets that would be good for showing them the ropes?

Some cards I think could be good:

Steward - choices are fun, nice early trashing outlet (they won't trash prolly, but may notice me doing it)
Marauder - show the value of attacks and the suck of having bloated decks
Armory - gaining cards is fun, but this can also teach the value of clashing terminals, if they're gaining too many
Hunting Grounds - drawing cards is fun, but will teach another valuable lesson in terminals if they're drawing them dead
Mining Village - gotta enable an engine
Junk Dealer - will enjoy seeing the light bulb going off when someone figures out that the trashing is not a drawback


Any suggestions for cards and complete kingdoms would be welcome!
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brokoli

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2012, 03:25:56 pm »
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Sage - because you don't have the base set, you don't have village and your friends will miss the village idiot stage. Sage is a good alternative.
Harem - Because it's simple.

I can't help you more, because I have not played with the whole dark ages set yet, unfortunately..
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Insomniac

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2012, 03:54:37 pm »
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Due to the fact that a lot of my gamer friends own a bunch of Dominion sets, I only have Intrigue and Dark Ages (which I mainly bought to fill in gaps in my friends' collections, and well, because Dark Ages is amazing). However, I've recently gotten a couple people interested in trying out Dominion for the first time. Two of them are somewhat casual strategy gamers (think Ticket to Ride, Race for the Galaxy), and one hasn't played much beyond the traditional stuff (Monopoly, Risk, etc.). Anybody want to suggest some good kingdoms with just these two sets that would be good for showing them the ropes?

Some cards I think could be good:

Steward - choices are fun, nice early trashing outlet (they won't trash prolly, but may notice me doing it)
Marauder - show the value of attacks and the suck of having bloated decks
Armory - gaining cards is fun, but this can also teach the value of clashing terminals, if they're gaining too many
Hunting Grounds - drawing cards is fun, but will teach another valuable lesson in terminals if they're drawing them dead
Mining Village - gotta enable an engine
Junk Dealer - will enjoy seeing the light bulb going off when someone figures out that the trashing is not a drawback


Any suggestions for cards and complete kingdoms would be welcome!

Nobles, let them have the noble idiot stage where they think buying out nobles is the best thing ever, i mean its an engine AND it's worth VP thats GOTTA beat provinces right?
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popsofctown

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2012, 03:56:01 pm »
+1

It usually does..
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werothegreat

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2012, 04:23:30 pm »
+1

It usually does..

You usually want Nobles.  Three of them, and your opponent has to get 5 Provinces just to tie with you.  If you manage to snag them all, your opponent is kind of screwed.
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Insomniac

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2012, 04:28:01 pm »
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I haven't had that experience, I can normally fashion an engine to beat provinces, but I tend to lose when I go for Nobles engines unless I'm strictly using the Nobles as one of the engine parts. IE if there is a village and Im devoting Nobles to draw, or if there is draw and I'm devoting Nobles to the village slot.
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rinkworks

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2012, 04:35:15 pm »
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This is a tough pair of expansions to start new players out on, I think, especially if they're not experienced gamers.  Dark Ages is complex, and Intrigue forces them to make decisions before they understand the value and effect of their choices.  You'll want to go as simple as possible.  Things like Courtyard, Wishing Well, Harem.  Conspirator if you've got a Village too.  Good call on Armory and Marauder.  Bandit Camp.  Altar.  Hunting Grounds.  I would avoid trashing attacks early on.

Bottom line, though, is that those first couple games should prioritize fun over learning strategy, so don't necessarily include a card just because it's instructive.
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werothegreat

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2012, 04:36:52 pm »
+1

Yeah, throw in Fortress and Upgrade.
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Octo

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2012, 05:48:16 pm »
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You mention "valuable lessons" a lot: forget about them.

The valuable lessons for new players are known as The Rules :) After that you can worry about the kind of things you're thinking about.

I think you'll have trouble with Dark Ages because of this as most cards break the rules in some way.

The Kingdom has 10 piles plus the basic supply (except for Ruins/Spoils/various other cards)
Spending money goes on the table, then into your discard (except Spoils)
Any 3 stacks running out ends the game (except Spoils)
When you gain a card it goes to your discard pile (except for Armoury)
Cards do the things written on them when you play them (except on Trash/Gain/Discard effects)
Trashing a card makes it go here into the trash (except for Fortress)
Each pile has the same cards in it (except Ruins, Knights)
Trashed cards are out of play, forget about them (except for Graverobber et al)
You can't play another card if you don't have any actions left (except for Cultist)
There's bad cards that you give to other people (except Deathcart where you take them for yourself)

and on and on....

With all these I wouldn't be at all surprised if they picked a ton of wrong habits that you then had to correct them over for the next few games, let alone the strategic implications of cards like Armoury that will warp their perception of how good gaining cards is. Normally cards that manipulate the basic rules are adequate complication at first, let alone those that break all the rules.

There's a couple in there that work, Junk Dealer is nice, Sage as mentioned could work, but most I would avoid including Marauder and Fortress - yes those two are simple in terms of what they do, but they change the game significantly from the base.

I would recommend
Masquerade (very fun as it keeps people involved when it's not their turn)
Courtyard
Coppersmith
Upgrade
Trading Post
Baron (for example this looks complex but is very simple to get - discard a shit card for a bonus, right, I get it)
Tribute is kind of fun.
Mining Village obviously
Swindler is probably the safest starting attack to go with.

The Alt VPs could be ok, but be wary of downplaying the importance of provinces.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 05:57:22 pm by Octo »
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ftl

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2012, 06:44:43 pm »
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Definitely don't include looters. Remember, if you include ruins, players might potentially have to learn what FIVE new cards do, for very little payoff. And you don't want to end up telling players "here's these cards, they're in the game but don't worry about them." And if you ever play a ruins and they're like "hey I want to get that card now!" and then find out nope, they can't buy that card.

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ftl

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2012, 06:52:52 pm »
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Perhaps just try one of the recommended Intrigue sets? Or start with those and add in a few DA cards?

 
  • Victory Dance: Bridge, Duke, Great Hall, Harem, Ironworks, Masquerade, Nobles, Pawn, Scout, Upgrade
  • Secret Schemes: Conspirator, Harem, Ironworks, Pawn, Saboteur, Shanty Town, Steward, Swindler, Trading Post, Tribute
  • Best Wishes: Coppersmith, Courtyard, Masquerade, Scout, Shanty Town, Steward, Torturer, Trading Post, Upgrade, Wishing Well
Of DA cards, Mystic is probably pretty simple, sage is pretty straightforward too. Maybe Market Square and Junk Dealer. Hunting Grounds, Beggar, Armory.
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Grujah

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2012, 08:31:51 pm »
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Scavanger, Ironmonger, Forager, Wandering Minstrel... Maybe Squire look ok from DA too.
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DG

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2012, 09:16:37 pm »
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Bridge, Conspirator, Harem, Trading Post, Tribute, Altar, Armory, Ironmonger, Sage, Vagabond.

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Archetype

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2012, 10:26:31 pm »
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Bridge, Conspirator, Harem, Trading Post, Tribute, Altar, Armory, Ironmonger, Sage, Vagabond.


Do you mean Vagrant? :P
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werothegreat

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2012, 11:05:03 pm »
+1

Catacombs is pretty straightforward.
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Young Nick

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2012, 12:22:14 am »
+1

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Jive Junkie

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2012, 04:20:58 pm »
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Thanks for the suggestions, everyone!

Perhaps just try one of the recommended Intrigue sets? Or start with those and add in a few DA cards?

 
  • Victory Dance: Bridge, Duke, Great Hall, Harem, Ironworks, Masquerade, Nobles, Pawn, Scout, Upgrade
  • Secret Schemes: Conspirator, Harem, Ironworks, Pawn, Saboteur, Shanty Town, Steward, Swindler, Trading Post, Tribute
  • Best Wishes: Coppersmith, Courtyard, Masquerade, Scout, Shanty Town, Steward, Torturer, Trading Post, Upgrade, Wishing Well
Of DA cards, Mystic is probably pretty simple, sage is pretty straightforward too. Maybe Market Square and Junk Dealer. Hunting Grounds, Beggar, Armory.

Not sure if I want Saboteur, Torturer, and Masquerade in the first game - the first two can make people really frustrated and Masquerade may slow the game down too much via AP. But those lists can probably be adapted a bit, so thanks for the idea!



Haha, if it ends in disaster I'll be sure to let you know.

 
This is a tough pair of expansions to start new players out on, I think, especially if they're not experienced gamers.  Dark Ages is complex, and Intrigue forces them to make decisions before they understand the value and effect of their choices.  You'll want to go as simple as possible.  Things like Courtyard, Wishing Well, Harem.  Conspirator if you've got a Village too.  Good call on Armory and Marauder.  Bandit Camp.  Altar.  Hunting Grounds.  I would avoid trashing attacks early on.

Bottom line, though, is that those first couple games should prioritize fun over learning strategy, so don't necessarily include a card just because it's instructive.

Yeah, I think I agree with you - fun and not overly complex cards should be the focus, to get them interested. Even bad action chains (like the classic Village idiot) are kinda fun when you're starting out, so enabling that sort of thing seems like a good idea, and they can start wondering why it's not effective at some other time. Conspirator seems like a card that just begs anyone (even beginners) to try to make it work, and would probably be really satisfying to a novice when they activate it.

Gotta get'em hooked on this gateway stuff, before introducin 'em to some of that hardcore D, you know what I'm talkin' 'bout, Possession & Goons and all that sweet nasty. ;)
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brokoli

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2012, 04:29:38 pm »
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Catacombs is pretty straightforward.
I don't think so. Storeroom probably, but the "on trash" effect of catacombs makes it a little more difficult...
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Good teaching sets with Intrigue + Dark Ages only?
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2012, 02:56:20 pm »
+1

It usually does..

You usually want Nobles.  Three of them, and your opponent has to get 5 Provinces just to tie with you.  If you manage to snag them all, your opponent is kind of screwed.

5 Provinces against 3 Provinces and 3 Nobles isn't a tie...

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