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Author Topic: Dvorak keyboard  (Read 16500 times)

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michaeljb

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Dvorak keyboard
« on: August 23, 2012, 09:33:00 pm »
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Anyone here use it? I started learning the layout a little while ago, and can touch type the whole alphabet for the first time today, though at a rate very much lower than my qwerty speed.
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Kirian

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2012, 09:37:55 pm »
0

Anyone here use it? I started learning the layout a little while ago, and can touch type the whole alphabet for the first time today, though at a rate very much lower than my qwerty speed.

I tried it once for a few months.  I went from look-typing at 90 wpm to touch-typing at 20 wpm.  In an age when ICQ conversations made up a good chunk of my days, 20 wpm wasn't cutting it.

I still look at they keyboard while typing for part of the time, though I usually can look for just a moment to readjust my finger positions.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2012, 09:41:05 pm »
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Anyone here use it? I started learning the layout a little while ago, and can touch type the whole alphabet for the first time today, though at a rate very much lower than my qwerty speed.

I tried it once for a few months.  I went from look-typing at 90 wpm to touch-typing at 20 wpm.  In an age when ICQ conversations made up a good chunk of my days, 20 wpm wasn't cutting it.

I still look at they keyboard while typing for part of the time, though I usually can look for just a moment to readjust my finger positions.

Did you know that (on QWERTY) the F and J keys have little bumps on them for your index fingers to find?  They let you readjust your position without looking.

A bunch of my friends switched to Dvorak a while ago but I wasn't up for it.  Still on QWERTY.  I touch type around 80 WPM, I think.  Could probably go a fair amount higher if I'm really trying, but then I'd start to make mistakes.
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Kirian

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2012, 09:47:10 pm »
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Did you know that (on QWERTY) the F and J keys have little bumps on them for your index fingers to find?  They let you readjust your position without looking.

I did know that!  It doesn't work though, because I don't use "standard" finger positioning.  I will often use the "wrong" fingers for what I type, because by now typing certain words is partially muscle memory.  But since I don't actually use the home row in a way that's meaningful, finding F and J isn't that useful to me.  It's significantly faster for me to not touch-type than to attempt to touch-type and continually go back and correct my mistakes.
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Grujah

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2012, 09:49:41 pm »
+1

Had it switched for few months last year. Was typing slower, but started to ramp up the speed with daily exercises.

Main problem was switching back and forth when using different computers (and uni, and back home, and such) which was mentally painful. So, I had to switch back.

Even worse was when I tried forcing myself to use my right hand (I am all-leftie), using mouse extensively with my right for extended time (like, Diablo 2 sessions) actually caused headaches.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2012, 09:50:06 pm »
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Did you know that (on QWERTY) the F and J keys have little bumps on them for your index fingers to find?  They let you readjust your position without looking.

I did know that!  It doesn't work though, because I don't use "standard" finger positioning.  I will often use the "wrong" fingers for what I type, because by now typing certain words is partially muscle memory.  But since I don't actually use the home row in a way that's meaningful, finding F and J isn't that useful to me.  It's significantly faster for me to not touch-type than to attempt to touch-type and continually go back and correct my mistakes.

90 wpm look-typing with non-standard positioning is funky.  What kind of positioning do you use?  Like, do you hover more around the top row?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2012, 09:52:47 pm »
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Had it switched for few months last year. Was typing slower, but started to ramp up the speed with daily exercises.

Main problem was switching back and forth when using different computers (and uni, and back home, and such) which was mentally painful. So, I had to switch back.

Even worse was when I tried forcing myself to use my right hand (I am all-leftie), using mouse extensively with my right for extended time (like, Diablo 2 sessions) actually caused headaches.

Not sure if it helps, but ctrl+shift will switch layouts if you have multiple layouts installed.  Assuming the shortcut isn't disabled somehow.

Also -- weird!  I am a lefty in everything (writing, kicking, throwing, you name it) except I am just fine using a mouse with my right hand.  I've always done so.  I can't remember if it felt weird when I first started using a computer, but trying to use a mouse with my left hand now feels weird.
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Grujah

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 09:53:20 pm »
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O yeah, while I have the correct position and all, some of the keys I typed incorrectly (wrong fingers, mainly not using my pinkies), I did it all correct on Dvorak. :P

Also learned how to dissembler laptop keyboard in record time.
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Grujah

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2012, 09:54:22 pm »
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Had it switched for few months last year. Was typing slower, but started to ramp up the speed with daily exercises.

Main problem was switching back and forth when using different computers (and uni, and back home, and such) which was mentally painful. So, I had to switch back.

Even worse was when I tried forcing myself to use my right hand (I am all-leftie), using mouse extensively with my right for extended time (like, Diablo 2 sessions) actually caused headaches.

Not sure if it helps, but ctrl+shift will switch layouts if you have multiple layouts installed.  Assuming the shortcut isn't disabled somehow.

Also -- weird!  I am a lefty in everything (writing, kicking, throwing, you name it) except I am just fine using a mouse with my right hand.  I've always done so.  I can't remember if it felt weird when I first started using a computer, but trying to use a mouse with my left hand now feels weird.

Yeah, but I was still unable to type Dvorak "blind", so that wouldn't help.

Plus, I have it bound to "Super" key ("Windows" key).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2012, 09:58:13 pm »
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Has anyone ever tried Frogpad?  I haven't.

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 10:15:38 pm »
0

Did you know that (on QWERTY) the F and J keys have little bumps on them for your index fingers to find?  They let you readjust your position without looking.

I did know that!  It doesn't work though, because I don't use "standard" finger positioning.  I will often use the "wrong" fingers for what I type, because by now typing certain words is partially muscle memory.  But since I don't actually use the home row in a way that's meaningful, finding F and J isn't that useful to me.  It's significantly faster for me to not touch-type than to attempt to touch-type and continually go back and correct my mistakes.

90 wpm look-typing with non-standard positioning is funky.  What kind of positioning do you use?  Like, do you hover more around the top row?

I hover around the top row a lot, I will wander back and forth, etc.  Depending on what word I'm typing I'll hit shift with a ring finger, cross over to hit R or T with my right hand or N with my left, use middle finger for S and index for D, F, and G, etc... probably favoring my right hand and hitting fewer letter with my left hand, now that I really look at what I'm doing, I'm definitely more likely to hit B with my right hand than my left, and equally likely to hit T with my right as my left, depending on what other letters are needed in the word I'm typing.

Note that 90 wpm is for extemporaneous typing only; if I'm forced to copy something I drop to 60-70 wpm because of the look problem.
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Kirian

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 10:16:01 pm »
0

Has anyone ever tried Frogpad?  I haven't.



I'll never understand anyone who isn't an amputee using that sort of thing.
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Grujah

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2012, 10:16:33 pm »
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Also -- weird!  I am a lefty in everything (writing, kicking, throwing, you name it) except I am just fine using a mouse with my right hand.  I've always done so.  I can't remember if it felt weird when I first started using a computer, but trying to use a mouse with my left hand now feels weird.

Yeah, I am one of the few lefties that does that. Some games suffer from it, I cannot use WSAD + Space as effectively. It worst at public computers when I cannot pull the mouse to the other side of the keyboard. Urgh.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2012, 10:24:31 pm »
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Also -- weird!  I am a lefty in everything (writing, kicking, throwing, you name it) except I am just fine using a mouse with my right hand.  I've always done so.  I can't remember if it felt weird when I first started using a computer, but trying to use a mouse with my left hand now feels weird.

Yeah, I am one of the few lefties that does that. Some games suffer from it, I cannot use WSAD + Space as effectively. It worst at public computers when I cannot pull the mouse to the other side of the keyboard. Urgh.

Most games should let you bind wasd to ijkl, I think.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2012, 04:19:50 pm »
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Most games should let you bind wasd to ijkl, I think.

I use a qwerty keyboard, and I never use factory settings for games. I know there is WASD, but I replace those with Mouse1HJK.

So, remapping a game shouldn’t be a problem. I don't recall playing a FPS where I couldn't map it. If I find one, I'd try my hardest to return the POS.

Never tried Dvorak. I feel like I should at least give it a shot.
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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2012, 04:22:16 pm »
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Most games should let you bind wasd to ijkl, I think.

I single bind with Z and X, and Up-arrow for brake, dammit >:|
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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2012, 04:27:58 pm »
0

Most games should let you bind wasd to ijkl, I think.

I use a qwerty keyboard, and I never use factory settings for games. I know there is WASD, but I replace those with Mouse1HJK.

So, remapping a game shouldn’t be a problem. I don't recall playing a FPS where I couldn't map it. If I find one, I'd try my hardest to return the POS.

Never tried Dvorak. I feel like I should at least give it a shot.


Dude, that sounds crazy.  I am ESDF and I never understood why you'd use anything else.  It's the default position of your hand, after all.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2012, 04:31:02 pm »
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Dude, that sounds crazy.  I am ESDF and I never understood why you'd use anything else.  It's the default position of your hand, after all.

I like having utility keys handy. I use H and K for strafing, but I don't like to stand still, so I use the Mouse1 to move while fiddling with I, O, Y, M, and others for various tasks.

It does well for me, but I did run into some confusion with Assassin's Creed. I will have to put more thought into it for AC2.
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Davio

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2012, 05:09:58 pm »
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I want to use it, being a programmer by trade, but unfortunately I don't really have the time to switch over. I mean, I can't really learn it when I'm working at a customer, that's not what they pay me for.

After 20 years of using Qwerty, I'm afraid I'm Qwerty for life.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2012, 06:42:08 pm »
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I hover around the top row a lot, I will wander back and forth, etc.  Depending on what word I'm typing I'll hit shift with a ring finger, cross over to hit R or T with my right hand or N with my left, use middle finger for S and index for D, F, and G, etc... probably favoring my right hand and hitting fewer letter with my left hand, now that I really look at what I'm doing, I'm definitely more likely to hit B with my right hand than my left, and equally likely to hit T with my right as my left, depending on what other letters are needed in the word I'm typing.

Note that 90 wpm is for extemporaneous typing only; if I'm forced to copy something I drop to 60-70 wpm because of the look problem.
I'm trying to imagine this, and I picture you typing like you're playing a piano :)

I am ESDF and I never understood why you'd use anything else.  It's the default position of your hand, after all.
But then Ctrl is too far away.
Ctrl key tangents: I hate the Ctrl key. It's in a terrible place for your fingers, and for this reason I refuse to use Emacs. I know I should switch it with Caps Lock and occasionally try for a day or two, but then I have too much muscle memory built up using it in that position to make it seem worth it.
A famous pro Starcraft player has found an interesting way to use the Ctrl key. He took out the Windows key and presses it with the underside of his first pinky knuckle (at the corner of his palm). Weird stuff:
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chogg

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2012, 09:23:31 pm »
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I switched for about 6 months. Got nearly as fast as with QWERTY, and I felt it was more comfortable.

Ultimately, I switched back for Vim.
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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2012, 12:33:39 am »
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I use Dvorak exclusively my main laptop but am comfortable with QWERTY and can do ~90 wpm with either. I also learned Emacs this summer.

Quote
Not sure if it helps, but ctrl+shift will switch layouts if you have multiple layouts installed.  Assuming the shortcut isn't disabled somehow.
It's Alt-Shift on my Windows computer.
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Schlippy

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2012, 08:28:15 am »
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I am using NEO, which is kind of hardcore dvorak for germans. :>

To get a rough idea, go to the page and put the mouse on the "Ebene X" buttons.
http://www.neo-layout.org/
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Grujah

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2012, 08:33:10 am »
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I want to use it, being a programmer by trade, but unfortunately I don't really have the time to switch over. I mean, I can't really learn it when I'm working at a customer, that's not what they pay me for.

After 20 years of using Qwerty, I'm afraid I'm Qwerty for life.

IIRC, at least on normal Dvorak, { and } are very badly positioned, any C-like is a pain :P
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Davio

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2012, 08:43:34 am »
0

I want to use it, being a programmer by trade, but unfortunately I don't really have the time to switch over. I mean, I can't really learn it when I'm working at a customer, that's not what they pay me for.

After 20 years of using Qwerty, I'm afraid I'm Qwerty for life.

IIRC, at least on normal Dvorak, { and } are very badly positioned, any C-like is a pain :P
Yeah, but there's a programmer's layout I thought.....googling....waiting for results....zing bleep bloop.

Here: http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/index.html
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theory

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2012, 10:08:02 am »
0

By the way, how fast do you all type?  http://www.typeracer.com
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Grujah

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2012, 10:12:42 am »
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70ish.

Engish is not my native tongue, though, do I get extra points? :P
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theory

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2012, 10:18:12 am »
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Doesn't it have different language settings?

I usually average around 130.  All those piano lessons from childhood have really paid off.
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Grujah

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2012, 10:28:41 am »
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I'm actually slower in Serbian, manly because I suck at Euro-keyboard punctuation.  :'(
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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2012, 10:54:39 am »
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By the way, how fast do you all type?  http://www.typeracer.com
Depends whether I use my laptop or an actual keyboard.

I'm very slow on my laptop, because it's so cramped.
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michaeljb

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2012, 11:32:28 am »
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I'm usually around 90. After I felt I could touch-type Dvorak, the first few one-minute tests I typed around 30, I think the best I got was 37.

The thing is, I'm also learning Emacs right now, and I think that is bad news for me learning Dvorak, since I'm learning all of Emacs's key bindings in Qwerty, and it's starting to become muscle memory more than thinking about which keys I'm pressing.

I don't mind doing the key bindings in Dvorak, but not being able to actually type text quickly makes it too frustrating to keep at it for very long, so naturally that leads to just getting more practice with the key bindings in Qwerty, and as I get more comfortable with Emacs+Qwerty, Dvorak seems less and less worth it. It's a vicious cycle :P
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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2012, 12:12:51 pm »
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Doesn't it have different language settings?

I usually average around 130.  All those piano lessons from childhood have really paid off.

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2012, 12:20:29 pm »
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By the way, how fast do you all type?  http://www.typeracer.com

When staying at a comfortable pace, I do 70 with dvorak. I can probably write as fast with qwerty, so I'm not using dvorak for the speed. It is a matter of comfort and, well, effortlessness that makes me use dvorak.

Of course, that might be because I write dvorak blind, the 'right' way, while my qwerty was always some self-learned bastard-technique. And that is probably the main reason I'd recommend the switch: It is THE best way to ditch all of your bad typing habits in one fell swoop, and using a superior layout afterwards is just a nice bonus.
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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2012, 01:37:11 am »
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I want to use it, being a programmer by trade, but unfortunately I don't really have the time to switch over. I mean, I can't really learn it when I'm working at a customer, that's not what they pay me for.

After 20 years of using Qwerty, I'm afraid I'm Qwerty for life.
IMO, Dvorak doesn't make any sense for programmers. It's optimized for English text. Code is not much like English text. I don't see any reason to expect a speed advantage over QWERTY.
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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2012, 04:45:04 am »
0

I want to use it, being a programmer by trade, but unfortunately I don't really have the time to switch over. I mean, I can't really learn it when I'm working at a customer, that's not what they pay me for.

After 20 years of using Qwerty, I'm afraid I'm Qwerty for life.
IMO, Dvorak doesn't make any sense for programmers. It's optimized for English text. Code is not much like English text. I don't see any reason to expect a speed advantage over QWERTY.
False.

Depending on the language, you might use a little or a lot of English, but often you will use English.

- The keywords for a specific language (like C#) are often in English.
- The API for a specific platform (like .NET) is often in English.
- If I need to give variables a name I often give them English names.
- If I'm writing a comment, I often do it in English.

So there's a lot of English in my programs, even if the frontend text is Dutch.
If I start using Dutch names mixed with English keywords it just looks weird.

Heck, if you have a language like Progress OpenEdge, it is much more like English text than just braces, indexes and numbers, an example:

Code: [Select]
DEFINE VARIABLE w AS HANDLE NO-UNDO.
 
CREATE WINDOW w ASSIGN
    WIDTH = 50
    HEIGHT = 5
    MESSAGE-AREA = FALSE
    STATUS-AREA = FALSE.   
 
CURRENT-WINDOW = w.
 
DEFINE BUTTON btnOK LABEL "OK" SIZE 12 BY 1.2.
FORM
    "Hello World!" VIEW-AS TEXT AT COL 20 ROW 2
    btnOK AT COL 20 ROW 4
    WITH FRAME f SIZE 50 BY 5 NO-BOX THREE-D.
 
VIEW FRAME f.
ENABLE btnOK WITH FRAME f.
WAIT-FOR "CHOOSE" OF btnOK.
DELETE OBJECT w.
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Grujah

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2012, 04:53:15 am »
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- If I need to give variables a name I often give them English names.
- If I'm writing a comment, I often do it in English.

Dude, always.  :D

Still, you do not have sentence structure. Like, most common English words, like "the" or "is" are not the most common words, the most common letters probably aren't the most common letters.
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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2012, 09:44:59 am »
+1

I'm curious about that.  What is it like, working as a programmer or doctor or ___ in a foreign country, where so much of what you do and learn depends on English?
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Davio

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2012, 10:01:16 am »
+2

I'm curious about that.  What is it like, working as a programmer or doctor or ___ in a foreign country, where so much of what you do and learn depends on English?
Well, I generally speak Dutch during the day, it's just the programming that I do in English.
It depends on the project. The project I'm working on now is for the Dutch market, so the names of the entities are in Dutch. Still I like to use English as much as I can in my code. It's easier for Dutch programmers to understand English than it is for international programmers (from cheap wage countries like former Yugoslavia or India) to understand Dutch.

Then again, I've worked on a project that was targeted for international use which used Dutch variable and function names. ::)

But I'm basically a child of the internet generation, I grew up without it initially and when I was about 14 we got our first internet capable PC at home. Because of the dominance of the US on the web, I picked it up very easily. And searches in English would yield way more results than searches in Dutch, so I gladly accepted that English would be the main language of this generation.

I still like to use the English Wikipedia over the Dutch one whenever I'm looking up a global or foreign topic.

You have to understand though that Holland is a very western and international oriented country so even our average Joes will be able to speak some English words. We get movies and TV series in English and put Dutch subtitles under them.

Although English is my second language, because of how often I use it (for these forums for instance), it's more like my 1.5th language. Sometimes it's even easier for me to think of an English way of saying things than a Dutch way and I found myself struggling to translate it back to Dutch.
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dor

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2012, 10:36:10 am »
0

I'm curious about that.  What is it like, working as a programmer or doctor or ___ in a foreign country, where so much of what you do and learn depends on English?

In a typical Israeli start-up filled with native Hebrew speakers, all verbal communication is done in Hebrew but emails, documentation and of course the code itself is strictly in English.
It's pretty easy getting used to it when learning English from grade school.

EDIT: I guess that Hebrew being a right-to-left language makes it harder to use technical terms in English when writing Hebrew text, at least when comparing to Dutch and the likes, so it's simply easier to do everything in English to begin with.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 10:39:16 am by dor »
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Davio

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2012, 11:27:03 am »
0

Dutch to English is actually a small step, since they're both in the same language family and the countries are only a couple of miles apart.
Same with German and French which both get taught at our schools.

The more we go to the east, the harder it gets for us, but that's because we can't track back words anymore.

A word like 'beer' in other languages:
Dutch: bier
French: bière
German: bier
Russian: пиво

Russian might as well be hieroglyphics to me.

So kudos on dealing with switching between Hebrew and English all day! I guess you guys have Qwerty's or do you have special Hebrew keyboards?
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dor

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2012, 11:43:50 am »
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The Hebrew keyboard is bilingual, using QWERTY for English and a standard Hebrew layout, like so: http://www.hebrew-keyboards.com/IMG_0926.jpg . There are also trilingual keyboards for native Arabic and Russian speakers.

English is common here pretty much as it is in The Netherlands (which is the non-English speaking country I found the easiest to get by in). Lots of movies and TV shows in English here as well, mandatory secondary language at school, etc.

But most of all it's the lack of a localized version of Dominion that forces us to learn English from an early age :P

* BTW, beer in Hebrew is pronounced Bee-ra
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Davio

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2012, 12:56:40 pm »
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I guess you guys were pretty happy when Unicode arrived!  ;D
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Grujah

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2012, 01:42:55 pm »
0

I'm curious about that.  What is it like, working as a programmer or doctor or ___ in a foreign country, where so much of what you do and learn depends on English?

You learn in school (Middle, High) and in front of TV/Computer screen, basically. I am studying Software Engineering, we had English in first year of college and... well, professor just auto-passed everybody - but was like "I don't want to bore you with this class, if you do not know enough English by now, what are you doing here?" Althrough there are some books in Serbian, it is recommend and encouraged that you learn from English books.  ;D


Dutch to English is actually a small step, since they're both in the same language family and the countries are only a couple of miles apart.
Same with German and French which both get taught at our schools.

The more we go to the east, the harder it gets for us, but that's because we can't track back words anymore.

A word like 'beer' in other languages:
Dutch: bier
French: bière
German: bier
Russian: пиво

Russian might as well be hieroglyphics to me.

So kudos on dealing with switching between Hebrew and English all day! I guess you guys have Qwerty's or do you have special Hebrew keyboards?

Heh, here it is either pivo or пиво.

I use 3 layouts:

English
Serbian Latin - which is basically Euro-layout with čććžšđ
Serbian Cyrillic - which is basically Euro-layout with letters switched with their cyrillic equivalents (P = П) plus љњџчћжшђ
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Dulkal

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2012, 04:35:48 am »
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- If I need to give variables a name I often give them English names.
- If I'm writing a comment, I often do it in English.

Dude, always.  :D

Still, you do not have sentence structure. Like, most common English words, like "the" or "is" are not the most common words, the most common letters probably aren't the most common letters.

Still, a staggering proportion of words are more easily written on dvorak than qwerty. 'Qwerty', of cause, being the obvious exception.
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Davio

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2012, 04:56:34 am »
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Even if you don't have sentence structure with the common small words, I still think the letters appear in a ratio that's good enough to be used.

It's not like the API uses an abnormal number of Q's or Z's.

Besides, it's not like a programmer is programming all the time. I'm busy writing on the forum, writing emails and sometimes I have to write documentation as well.

So a keyboard which is optimized for English is good enough for me, but I'd just like to have the symbols I use often, like the semi-colon, [], () and {} organized a little better.
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Grujah

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2012, 06:17:39 am »
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You're probably right.

I'd like to see lisp-based dvorak, though.  ;D
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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2012, 09:24:14 am »
0

By the way, how fast do you all type?  http://www.typeracer.com

I get about 60-70 wpm on tests like that one.  When I'm extemporizing, I can get up to 90-100.  Such is the problem of not learning touch-typing.

You have to understand though that Holland is a very western and international oriented country so even our average Joes will be able to speak some English words. We get movies and TV series in English and put Dutch subtitles under them.

This is true not just of the Netherlands but also of most of Europe, as I understand it.  Some countries are better about being willing to converse in English than others, but almost everyone, in Northern Europe especially, knows English.  Here in the US, of course, learning a foreign language is uncommon even among the highly educated.  I'm ashamed to admit I've forgotten 90% of the German I learned in high school, and haven't tried to learn another language, or keep up with the German, in the ~19 years since I last took a language course.  That said, I love linguistics.  Therefore:

The more we go to the east, the harder it gets for us, but that's because we can't track back words anymore.

A word like 'beer' in other languages:
Dutch: bier
French: bière
German: bier
Russian: пиво

Eh, it's a loanword in French though.  French is no closer to Dutch and German than either of those are to Russian or Serbian.

And then of course there's the wacky Finns/Hungarians/Turks.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2012, 01:36:48 pm »
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Is Dvorak actually that much better than QWERTY?  Last time I looked into it, there was a lot of conflicting research and most sources were biased.
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Dulkal

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2012, 04:18:57 am »
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Is Dvorak actually that much better than QWERTY?  Last time I looked into it, there was a lot of conflicting research and most sources were biased.

I can't give you any research per se, but try picking 10 random words and see how the fingering pattering would look on Dvorak vs. Qwerty. My guess is that about 7 of them will be visibly more accessible on Dvorak, and the last 3 would be equal.

In other words: I can't back it up scientifically, but yes, it's better by a large margin.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 04:20:29 am by Dulkal »
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Lekkit

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2012, 06:29:22 am »
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Ever since I saw a Veyboard at my mother's work place when I was six, I've been wanting to learn to use it. It's a whole different keyboard than the usual, but it's fast. Like super fast. And it looks really weird.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #50 on: September 07, 2012, 03:05:16 pm »
0

Is Dvorak actually that much better than QWERTY?  Last time I looked into it, there was a lot of conflicting research and most sources were biased.

I can't give you any research per se, but try picking 10 random words and see how the fingering pattering would look on Dvorak vs. Qwerty. My guess is that about 7 of them will be visibly more accessible on Dvorak, and the last 3 would be equal.

In other words: I can't back it up scientifically, but yes, it's better by a large margin.

But how do you define "accessible"?  It seems like anecdotal evidence is all that there is.  If it's better by a large margin, there should be scientific literature readily available to back up the claim.

Wikipedia has this to say:

Quote
Economists Stan Liebowotz and Stephen E. Margolis have written articles in the Journal of Law and Economics[25] and Reason magazine[26] where they reject Dvorak proponents' claims that the dominance of the QWERTY is due to market failure brought on by QWERTY's early adoption, writing, "[T]he evidence in the standard history of Qwerty versus Dvorak is flawed and incomplete. [..] The most dramatic claims are traceable to Dvorak himself, and the best-documented experiments, as well as recent ergonomic studies, suggest little or no advantage for the Dvorak keyboard."[25]
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2012, 03:15:01 pm »
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And here is an article (found via Wikipedia) with more to say on the matter:

http://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html
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Re: Dvorak keyboard
« Reply #52 on: September 07, 2012, 03:38:34 pm »
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If nothing else, typing on the Dvorak keyboard requires your fingers to travel a smaller distance.

http://www.integrity.com/homes/tomandkaren/Keymileage/
http://patorjk.com/blog/2009/07/12/typing-distance/

(and apparently Colemak is even better)
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