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Author Topic: Hunt for it, it's mine!  (Read 4026 times)

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DG

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Hunt for it, it's mine!
« on: July 29, 2011, 01:15:49 pm »
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I don't know if this is genuinely interesting or not, and I don't know a specific solution, but it might provoke some thought. It's also far less cryptic than many of the puzzles posted.


Consider a province game where you're opening 5/2. None of the 10 kingdom cards can affect another players deck or hand, and you're only going to consider buying two types of kingdom cards, hunting parties and mines. How do you change your play to get optimal results from this deck?
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Blooki

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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2011, 01:23:32 pm »
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Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're asking. Are we allowed to know any other kingdom cards? What does 'optimally' mean?
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2011, 01:41:59 pm »
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I'm assuming the puzzle is something along the lines of "what is the optimal buying / upgrading strategy" for a 5/2 opening - only using hunting parties and mines.

Ie. - what do you open with, what is the optimal mix of hunting parties and mines, when should you buy treasure, and when you play a mine - in what order do you upgrade your cards?  The disclaimer on the other 10 kingdom cards is to rule out junk like Militia / Goons / Masq / Ambassador / Mountebank that would otherwise mess with an optimal solitaire strategy .

I would probably start with this:

Play:
#1 - Play all hunting parties
#2 - Play Mine
- 2a. upgrade silver to gold (if possible)
- 2b. upgrade copper to silver



8: Buy province if #gold > 1 [PPR logic removed for sake of brevity]
5: Buy duchy if [#provinces remaining < N] (where N is some number near 5 or 6, and might vary if you are P1 or P2)
2: Buy estate (if # provinces remaining < M) - most likely M=2
5+ Buy Hunting Party if # mines > 0
5+ Buy Mine if #mines = 0
3+ buy silver

I'm looking forward to whoever decides to simulate this... it may be possible that the presence of Hunting Party chains should cause you to buy fewer duchies (so as to not clog your hunting party chains), or change your upgrade logic such that you always have at least 1 silver in your deck. 

However, i'm just going with my gut feel that despite the theme of cornucopia, a hunting party deck is most effective when your deck consists of as little variety as possible.  Ideally - VPs, hunting parties, and 1 killer action. 
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timchen

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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2011, 02:04:15 pm »
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I think with the constraint this is more or less it. I would probably not going to buy more than 2 silvers, but the difference should be minimal with hunting parties, and without +buys.

The interesting question may be that at some point midway whether you should mine a copper or silver. I dunno, if you have a mix of all of them, it probably does not matter that much either. If you don't, probably you should maintain 1 silver and 1 copper so you can always draw it. That's probably it.
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rinkworks

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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2011, 02:12:52 pm »
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Shouldn't you upgrade Copper to Silver in preference to Silver to Gold?  This increases the likelihood that you'll have a Mineable treasure with your Mine.  But maybe in a Hunting Party deck, the chances of a problem of this sort are small.  If you have few Golds, you'll probably have at least one Copper or Silver in your hand.  If you have many Golds and only a few Coppers and Silvers, the Hunting Parties will find them.  Still.
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DG

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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2011, 02:23:31 pm »
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Quote
What does 'optimally' mean?


Most likely to win a game.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2011, 02:55:21 pm »
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Shouldn't you upgrade Copper to Silver in preference to Silver to Gold?  This increases the likelihood that you'll have a Mineable treasure with your Mine.  But maybe in a Hunting Party deck, the chances of a problem of this sort are small.  If you have few Golds, you'll probably have at least one Copper or Silver in your hand.  If you have many Golds and only a few Coppers and Silvers, the Hunting Parties will find them.  Still.

This topic has been covered a few times, and I'm not sure if anyone has ever proved it, but in general, I'm in favor "highest treasure first", because i believe that 3 Golds and 4 Coppers is better than 6 Silvers and 1 copper.  (For one of these, its possible to purchase a province with only 3 treasures, the other requires at least 4.  There are side benefits as well - like if someone is forcing you to discard, or if you want to trash cards.  For sure in a platinum game you want to go highest treasure up.

It's very rare that you get yourself into a situation in which you are:
a. playing with mine
b. stuck into a situation where you have a hand full of gold and a mine
c. are legitimately angry about having a HAND FULL OF GOLD

when it does happen, you might curse your bad luck, but

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shark_bait

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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2011, 03:10:32 pm »
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c. are legitimately angry about having a HAND FULL OF GOLD

when it does happen, you might curse your bad luck, but



I'll gladly trash one of em for a platinum.  :)
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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2011, 07:31:40 am »
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It's quite easy to simulate (just modify the "_Single Mine" strategy buy adding a buy rule for Hunting Party between Silver and Mine). My current implementation of Mine will always trash the best treasure (especially important in Colony games to ensure we will get Platinums!). For this question I changed up Mine's play rules to see what is better:

Mine/Hunting Party 43- BM Envoy 48 -> Mine Coppers first
Mine/Hunting Party 42- BM Envoy 50 -> Mine Silvers first

So it appears Mining Coppers before Silvers is slightly better.
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Davio

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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2011, 07:35:25 am »
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Maybe there is a turning point after which mining Silvers is better, but before which mining Coppers is better.
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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2011, 08:13:22 am »
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It's quite easy to simulate (just modify the "_Single Mine" strategy buy adding a buy rule for Hunting Party between Silver and Mine).

What's your buy rule for hunting party? How many you will buy?
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Reyk

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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2011, 08:20:10 am »
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Mine/Hunting Party 43- BM Envoy 48 -> Mine Coppers first
Mine/Hunting Party 42- BM Envoy 50 -> Mine Silvers first

So it appears Mining Coppers before Silvers is slightly better.

I' m pretty sure you would like to mine your first silver to gold in any case. And you probably would not mine your last copper/silver.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2011, 09:21:13 am »
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That's maybe the point why with Hunting Party Copper=>Silver is better in general. If you just mine Silver into Gold, there is quite certainly a point when you have no Silvers left in your deck. The other way round (just mining Copper to Silver) the probability of having all types of base treasures is much higher.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 09:23:47 am by kn1tt3r »
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2011, 09:23:37 am »
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I don't think it works like that. I think "Mine Coppers first" means "When you play a Mine, look to see if you are holding a Copper. If you are, Mine it. If not, Mine something else (Silver)" and "Mine Silvers first" means "When you play a Mine, look to see if you are holding a Silver. If you are, Mine it. If not, Mine something else (Copper)".
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DG

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Re: Hunt for it, it's mine!
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2011, 12:27:03 pm »
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I think I have to apologise for posing this question as I hadn't realised just much how the variance of the hunting party would cancel any advantages through play. Even though we think of the hunting party providing consistent hands, finding one of each card type in a deck, there is massive inconsistency across a series of hands. A hunting party might skip many bad cards and put them in the discard pile, or it might not and the bad cards appear in the next draw. In this scenario we simply want to avoid bad hands (not buying hunting party, not buying province) and the variance from the hunting party is too influential.

Anyway, the basic strategy was mainly covered by Captain Frisk's post.  Buy one (and only one) mine. Buy hunting parties ahead of gold and the let the mine provide the wealth. There are some issues remaining, so I'll give my opinions.

Should you keep buying silvers or stop once you have enough treasure to buy hunting parties on most draws? This deck operates partially as an action driven deck and partly as a rich money deck. By the end of the game, if you draw a purchased silver instead of a hunting party you may well be able to buy a province anyway, but I'd still suggest that once you've bought two/three extra silvers you should stop. Maximise the chance of drawing hunting parties by keeping the deck smaller.

Should you mine silver-> gold or copper->silver? The main difference I see here is in mining the first gold. When you do this you add a likelihood that the hunting parties will draw the gold and reduce the chances that they draw the mine. Drawing the mine more frequently looks more attractive as it increases the gross value of the deck. However it's more important that you buy a hunting party every turn early on and the gold assures this. By the end of the game the deck is rich enough that an extra use of the mine is not missed. After the first gold I suspect you should mostly mine coppers to silvers as this reduces the chances of a bad draw where you can't play or buy hunting parties. Any hand where you draw a hunting party will nearly always be able to buy at least a hunting party that turn.

Should you remove a copper or silver entirely from your deck? Eliminating copper from the deck would be a good idea but there are not enough turns in a realistic game to make it profitable. You should certainly never remove the last silver from the deck as you don't want the hunting parties skipping past all the gold (once you have one in hand ) and leaving you short of province money. As an exception, you might want to mine your only silver to produce your only gold.

Should you take early provinces or duchies? I'd suggest that even though you have only one buy each turn, delay taking an early province or duchy. The hunting parties always find unique cards in the deck so these extra vp cards will mean that fewer productive cards are drawn each turn.

As an extra note, when playing the hunting parties you should keep an eye on the remainder of the draw deck. At times it is quite possible to deduce that by not playing a hunting party you're still assured of a good buy this turn (from the cards in hand) and a good hand next turn (from the cards still left in the deck, usually hunting parties). Playing out all the hunting parties every turn is usually good but can throw up entirely random hands for the following turn.


If anyone is interested they could consider the same scenario for a colony game.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 12:30:58 pm by DG »
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