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Author Topic: Retrospective Board Analysis  (Read 4284 times)

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Blooki

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Retrospective Board Analysis
« on: July 25, 2011, 09:17:01 pm »
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Just finished a game where my opponent and I took divergent strategies. I ended up winning, but I had very fortunate shuffle-luck. However, each of us felt our respective strategies were superior to the other's. He went to the simulator, I'm going to the community (because I don't know how to use the simulator).

Kingdom:
Duke
Harvest

Conspirator
Remake
Tournament

Chancellor
Fishing Village
Menagerie
Warehouse

I'm totally blanking on the 10th card in the set. Whatever it was, I don't think either player gained a single copy.

No Colonies.

What is your opening? What is your plan? Any additional comments?

Thanks,
Blooki
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Retrospective Board Analysis
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2011, 09:38:09 pm »
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I would go Remake into a later menagerie engine.
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DG

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Re: Retrospective Board Analysis
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2011, 10:15:50 pm »
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That's an interesting set. Just for the illusion of control, I'd say remake to a fishing village, menagerie, warehouse engine for conspirators and then beat the opponent up with a tournament. At the other end of the spectrum is a warehouse/harvest/duke strategy and there are probably countless variations in between, plus some really fast tournament rushes. I can't see the simulator using the warehouse to anywhere near full advantage or making a decent stab at anything except a harvest/duke strategy.

I've never used the noble steed to put four silver into a deck yet but I can certainly see options for doing so in this kingdom.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 10:18:01 pm by DG »
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shark_bait

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Re: Retrospective Board Analysis
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2011, 10:29:50 pm »
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This is a tough one.  I guess I'd pray that I don't get a 5/2 start and open with remake/fishing village.  Remake estates into menageries with a warehouse or two.  I'd probably want to get a conspirator engine going but I would definitely want to pick up a tournament.  I'd really want to get the princess.  With no plus buy on the board, that would be helpful in end game situations.  Also, I think tournament would be essential for picking up duchies when the provinces start to get lower.  That's just my 2 cents.  Feel free to agree or disagree.
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Blooki

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Re: Retrospective Board Analysis
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2011, 10:38:01 pm »
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I'll post what we ended up opening with tomorrow with my commentary on the main question I have for the community. As a hint/teaser, the general principle I want to ask everyone about is how you decide whether to escalate or withdraw from a Tournament battle?
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Retrospective Board Analysis
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2011, 12:59:01 am »
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This looks like a hardcore Remake setup, although I indeed think that Tournament is very strong here. Good trashing, no $5 power cards, warehouse as (not really necessary) support. Plus it supports Conspirator.

I would open Remake/Silver to Remake me up from Estates to Silvers, Menageries and some FVs to Tournaments and Conspirators (Silvers for buying power and then for more remade Conspirators and some Tournaments).

In principle my #1 priority would be a practically money-less deck of Conspirators/FVs and maybe one or two Harvests if there are spare actions. Then I would aim towards winning like two tournaments (Followers for destruction, Princess for +buy), especially because it could be critical for your engine if the opponents wins them all.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Retrospective Board Analysis
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2011, 01:06:15 am »
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Remake into maybe one fishing village, a warehouse or two, menageries, a tournament or two, lots of conspirators, maybe one harvest. Tenth card would be huge if it's non-terminal, or, especially, if it gives +buy. Big-time action set, no doubt.

Geronimoo

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Re: Retrospective Board Analysis
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 04:15:09 am »
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This board isn't very friendly to the Simulator since it's bad at playing Warehouse and horrible at playing Remake.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Retrospective Board Analysis
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 04:21:22 am »
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Just saw the game log, and the 10th card is Worker's Village, which is far from being unimportant here.
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Reyk

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Re: Retrospective Board Analysis
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2011, 04:22:14 am »
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I'm totally blanking on the 10th card in the set. Whatever it was, I don't think either player gained a single copy.

I cheated a little:
The 10th card was Worker's village and you both gained it. That rules out the argument of Princess being the only +buy.

I wonder if you wouldn't beat tournament here with a heavy Conspirator deck. Remake should defend against curses, but the handsize attack is still annoying. On the other hand Diadem might be an interesting Price here.
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Blooki

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Re: Retrospective Board Analysis
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2011, 12:02:10 pm »
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Just saw the game log, and the 10th card is Worker's Village, which is far from being unimportant here.

Haha, my bad. My memory's terrible. So since people are looking are looking at the gamelog anyways, here it is:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110725-180247-caf7e5ee.html.

As you can see, how the game itself played out was heavily in my favor. I believe this is largely due to my shuffle-luck allowing me to short-circuit his/her Tournaments 3 times in a row following my first Province. While this is certainly part of any Tournament game, I felt it was certainly fortuitous and I wonder if our divergent strategies would've produced a different outcome had he gotten the first Province.

So what I'd like to discuss here is the expected case scenario (or at least the community's opinions of it) for the divergent mentalities for approaching the Tournament battle.

In my opinion, Remake is a no-brainer opener here. Especially with the multitude of very potent $3 kingdom cards to turn Estates (and Coppers w/ Princess) into. And who doesn't like a razor thin deck that is easy to track (says the guy who forgot about Worker's Villages), usually draws consistent starting hands and is perfect for Tournament/Province collisions.

My opponent however disagreed. While I can't speak for him/her beyond that, I believe this was the reasoning. He/she identified this as a Tournament game from the start and concluded that the first Province owner would put himself/herself in a good position to win. Aware of the power of Remake but feeling like it tends to lose a tempo by spending early turns to trash, a big money with fast cycling approach was taken to rush to some Provinces counting on leveraging the advantage of Provinces and prizes to make up for the opportunity cost of foregoing trashing.

Reading the comments, it seems like most people would be thinking like I would. I too realized a sick Conspirator chain would be easy to build, but by the time we reached that point in the game the scales were already tipped so far in my favor that there was no need to power up any more. Again, I don't think this instance of the game was particularly exciting, interesting or requiring hard decisions once the results were coming in. What I'm really curious about is how to optimally play Tournament (if there even is an optimal way given how much variance is involved with the card) because I find myself on the butt-end of the race many times too. What I liked about my opening too was that the board seemed strong enough for non-Tournament play that I could withdraw myself from ever buying a single Tournament if my opponent's Chancellor/Tournament/Gold/etc. engine managed to buy a few Provinces absurdly early. I imagine a pure Conspirator/Worker's Village/Menagerie engine could win the game with Duchies/Dukes and without buying a single Province.

Would anybody like to make a case for my opponent's opening or any other non-Remake opening? What about openings that forego other typically strong-buys (i.e. skipping Sea Hag, Potion play, etc.) for the express purpose of Tournament/Province rushing? Basically, my intent with this thread was to pick people's brains about how to play Tournament boards.
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DG

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Re: Retrospective Board Analysis
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2011, 12:45:45 pm »
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Yep you're quite right Blooki. Very nicely played in fact with plenty of neat flourishes.

The problem is though that I've played a number of games where an opponent has bought a lot of tournaments and even though we've bought provinces at much the same time, the fast card drawing of the tournaments means that they've gained the best prize (and effectively won the game) before I draw my province into hand. In this kingdom you'd made a deck that could utilize and defend against the prizes very strongly (far better than your opponent could have done) but frequently the prizes themselves are decisive. In that respect I can understand how opponent could believe his approach was correct, simply because it succeeds so often.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 12:47:53 pm by DG »
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Reyk

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Re: Retrospective Board Analysis
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2011, 01:23:06 pm »
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What about openings that forego other typically strong-buys (i.e. skipping Sea Hag, Potion play, etc.) for the express purpose of Tournament/Province rushing? Basically, my intent with this thread was to pick people's brains about how to play Tournament boards.

I lost many tournament races too. When I decide I have to commit to a tournament race (I don't think thats always the case - certainly not on some King's Court boards) I try to remember the Province at turn3 puzzle (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/590464/dominion-riddle-1-solved). That's why cards like Baron or even Coppersmith come to mind. Baron seems to be especially interesting due to Followers.

Here I lost with Envoy against Baron:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110706-105337-edf87b6f.html

Here I was a bit lucky with Coppersmith (especially against the early Pirate attack):
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110630-120238-7afdffc0.html

I really managed to get a turn 3 Province against Wandering Winder due to Coppersmith, but in the long run Masquerade was of course way better (Probably I chose the wrong price at turn 9):
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110628-084545-f1e3ead4.html

I would skip potion most of the time, especially for Alchemists and would only consider it for Apothecary and Familiar. But I remember two games where the opponent went Familiar, I didn't and won the tournament race (in one I skipped it probably due to 5-2, the other was interesting in the current context due to remake):
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110511-093219-994f64ef.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110504-151230-171a6a46.html

I normally wouldn't skip Seahag.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 01:28:19 pm by Reyk »
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Superdad

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Re: Retrospective Board Analysis
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2011, 01:51:59 pm »
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/edit ... nm, Princess was played.

This is odd... from the game log, on turn 13:

Blooki plays a Remake.
... trashing an Estate.
... gaining a Fishing Village.
... trashing a Copper.
... gaining a Fishing Village
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 01:54:01 pm by Superdad »
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