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[thirtyseven]

Log: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/24/game-20120724-140033-bec47b92.html

cards in supply: Chapel, Courtyard, Feast, Great Hall, Ironworks, Laboratory, Militia, Navigator, Scout, and Upgrade
----------------------
#1 Ptolemy I: 50 points (5 Provinces, 4 Duchies, and 8 Great Halls); 21 turns
           opening: Chapel / Ironworks
           [28 cards] 8 Great Halls, 5 Laboratories, 1 Militia, 1 Upgrade, 2 Silvers, 2 Golds, 4 Duchies, 5 Provinces

#2 thirtyseven: 31 points (3 Provinces, 4 Duchies, and an Estate); 20 turns
             opening: Militia / Chapel
             [19 cards] 1 Chapel, 1 Laboratory, 1 Militia, 1 Copper, 5 Silvers, 2 Golds, 1 Estate, 4 Duchies, 3 Provinces
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trash: 2 Militias, 6 Estates, 2 Silvers, a Chapel, 13 Coppers, and an Ironworks

My strategy was open Militia/Chapel, get Labs on 5, Gold on 6... a straightforward strategy for a straightforward board. My opponent piledrives Great Halls and also picks up 5 Labs to my 1, since they were low priority for me. I admit I did overlook IW/GH... I'm just wondering if I underestimated Great Halls and Labs, if IW/GH is the way to go here, and how his strategy was more effective than mine.

[ftl]

Your strategy could be mostly described as Big Money+Chapel+Militia.

This that seems sort of mediocre. Chapel does not really help out Big Money all that well. Your strategy was pretty slow - you got 3 provinces and 4 duchies in 20 turns, that's quite slow considering your opponent didn't even get a Militia until turn 12. 

Your opponent built a laboratory engine that would use IW to pick up great halls along the way; it was faster, picked up some alt VP, and used labs to keep large handsizes even after militas. I think you underestimated chapel/lab, and IW for picking up a few extra silvers and of course great halls.

[shark_bait]

It makes me sad to see scout all alone in the supply.

[DWetzel]

Yeah, the Ironworks is kind of a big deal here.  He's got no terminal draw cards, so every Ironworks is a free VP, and the Great Halls themselves will never clog anything up.  Notice he never actually BOUGHT any Great Halls (I may have missed one), just IWed them and turned his no-longer-useful Chapel into one via Upgrade (which is itself a "free" card).  That Ironworks play also accelerates deck cycling (as do the Great Halls), so he's able to get his stuff into play very quickly.  His deck isn't really any bigger than yours once you take the 9 cantrips into account - and he can draw most of it with the 5 labs.

[ehunt]

hmm, militia is such a good response to great hall though, and chapel means OP can play the militia over and over. I'm a little surprised. Let me look at the logs.

[ehunt]

I think the real hero here is upgrade.

[thirtyseven]

Thanks for the input so far. I guess it was one of those games where I unwittingly fell into Chapel BM+X, and as usual I underestimate deck-cycling cards. I'm also in a phase where I tend to avoid IW, since I've been trapped buying too many of those in a couple of games.

(reading ehunt's replies mid-post...)
Ehunt, that's what I was thinking... would double Militia BM (no Chapel) beat out my opponent's strategy? Would I take Lab over Silver on $5 or no? Hmm, Upgrade you say? Why?

[eHalcyon]

Thanks for the input so far. I guess it was one of those games where I unwittingly fell into Chapel BM+X, and as usual I underestimate deck-cycling cards. I'm also in a phase where I tend to avoid IW, since I've been trapped buying too many of those in a couple of games.

(reading ehunt's replies mid-post...)
Ehunt, that's what I was thinking... would double Militia BM (no Chapel) beat out my opponent's strategy? Would I take Lab over Silver on $5 or no? Hmm, Upgrade you say? Why?

Hard to say about double Militia.  It's stronger against GH because, if you have GH in hand, it's hard to decide whether or not to discard them because you don't know what they will draw.  However, thanks to Chapel and Upgrade, his deck is pretty trim.  With just a bit of deck tracking he probably knows whether keeping GH is worth it.

Definitely take Lab over Silver.

Upgrade is generally better in the early game for transforming Estate-->Silver (or Engine piece).  I think it mattered less in this game because of chapel.  Ptolemy doesn't pick one up until turn 11, but he manages to play it 6 times for decent effect:

Silver->Militia
Chapel->Great Hall
Militia->Lab
Ironworks->Duchy
Silver->Militia
Militia->Lab

In particular, he gets his chapel and Ironworks out of the way after they are no longer useful.  I don't know about calling it the Hero of the game, but it did do some good work.

[DG]

Chapel with militia is fine. If you had constructed your deck a little more with labs, gold, or an upgrade before buying the first province then you'd probably have been ok. I also suspect that buying a lab for 2 silver and copper would have been better than trashing the copper and buying a silver.

[Robz888]

You didn't draw your Chapel on Turn 3 or 4, and then on Turn 5 it collided with Militia. So that's not a great start.

[ehunt]

You didn't draw your Chapel on Turn 3 or 4, and then on Turn 5 it collided with Militia. So that's not a great start.

oh man i missed that when i reviewed. missing chapel on first shuffle when opponent doesn't is gg.

[dondon151]

Is Ironworks-Great Hall something actually worth going for? It has never been a winning combo in my experience. Something about the opportunity cost of getting the Ironworks and then just using it to gain Great Halls instead of more powerful cards...

[ftl]

No, it's not, not usually at least. In this case, note that the margin of victory was larger than the 8 points from great halls anyway.

[ehunt]

I think as someone on this thing said once, you're sacrificing an early turn in the game for eight points. It's usually a losing proposition. On the other hand, if there's something you really want to ironworks (caravans, say) it's another story.

[Robz888]

I think as someone on this thing said once, you're sacrificing an early turn in the game for eight points. It's usually a losing proposition. On the other hand, if there's something you really want to ironworks (caravans, say) it's another story.

I'm not sure it's usually a losing proposition, but yeah, it's not the strongest thing in the world. Especially against discard attacks in this sort of game, I would think.

[Reyk]

I think as someone on this thing said once, you're sacrificing an early turn in the game for eight points. It's usually a losing proposition. On the other hand, if there's something you really want to ironworks (caravans, say) it's another story.

But there really was on this board as shark_bait pointed out already. Getting all Great Halls and picking up with IW 1 or 2 Scouts on the way is great. Plus you can move your labs on top.

[O]

I think as someone on this thing said once, you're sacrificing an early turn in the game for eight points. It's usually a losing proposition. On the other hand, if there's something you really want to ironworks (caravans, say) it's another story.

I'm not sure it's usually a losing proposition, but yeah, it's not the strongest thing in the world. Especially against discard attacks in this sort of game, I would think.

8Pts/one turn is actually quite nice.. especially in Province games

[shraeye]

8Pts/one turn is actually quite nice.. especially in Province games

I am the agreeing.  When Great Hall is around, I will definitely give good thought to ironworks.  I also like that scout is around.  If I manage to get all the great halls, then scout feels to me like it can be a cheap lab. (of course sometimes it doesn't hit any GH, but at least you can remove other green&coppers)

[ehunt]

I think the militia is going to beat ironworks + scout + great hall if OP gets to chapel on turns 3 or 4.

[ehunt]

I do agree with O's point though. Sometimes 8 points for 1 early turn of tempo is worth it, I just don't think this is one of them.

[shraeye]

What about without Militia on the board?

[jider]

One thing about deck cycling: GH doesn't improve deck cycling, it only keeps it constant while adding VP to your deck.  It merely replaces itself with the next card in your deck, so if you hadn't bought GH, you would have just drawn that next card anyway.  Lab on the other hand, actually improves deck cycling, for obvious reasons.

[DG]

Another option here is overdraw the deck each turn so that you can gain a card with the ironworks, draw and upgrade it to a lab, play the militia, buy province. This would be a good lock down if you can manage it, with the ironworks upgraded to a duchy last turn.

[ehunt]

What about without Militia on the board?

yeah without militia i'd go for it.

[sjelkjd]

I think you bought too much money.  If you're playing chapel on this board, I'd buy labs until you can draw your whole deck every turn(and hit him with militia every turn).  So turn 7 I would buy lab, turn 8 don't trash the copper and buy lab.
Once you get the lab draw, you can trash at leisure - so no need to choke yourself early on(like turns 8 and 10).