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[pingpongsam]

Oh I agree with your analysis I was just relishing the irony of the pot noting the particular shade of gray sported by kettle.

We still have time and we still haven't heard from some of those I suspect most but I find the lack of a hammer on Galzria an indicator that he may well be scum.

[Galzria]

Oh I agree with your analysis I was just relishing the irony of the pot noting the particular shade of gray sported by kettle.

We still have time and we still haven't heard from some of those I suspect most but I find the lack of a hammer on Galzria an indicator that he may well be scum.

Do you really think scum would come along and say "Oh lookie! Goodie goodie! L-1! How delicious! HAMMMMMMMMMER!"?

[pingpongsam]

In a word, yes.

Other than hammer vote scrutiny what's the loss to Mafia if you are town?

One of the best ploys scum could use at this point is to hammer a Mafia Galz since it should shunt the attention from them when you flip scum. The problem is it definitely puts the onus on them to play a strong end-game. From what I can tell Mafia isn't having to play this game at all.

The best question in this case is which non-Galz-wagon member would look the guiltiest if they hammered Galz?
I'm not seeing an obvious candidate, so I would expect the hammer voter to appear no more guilty than anyone else on the Galzria wagon.

[Galzria]

PPS: Do you have a town read, null read, or scum read on Eevee?

[manda2014]

My head is really spinning from all of this game day. The only thing I can come up with is that Galz and Timchen have both been playing so over-the-top that they MUST both be town. Scum isn't going to bring itself to L-1, and scum isn't going to promise town a vote. So, we should look elsewhere.

As far as defending myself, I've been trying to avoid doing that because the way I see it, town doesn't really need to defend itself. None of the accusations made against me are false (that I haven't been posting much and that I haven't taken any firm position on anyone), but I'm certainly not scum. I haven't posted much because I have RL commitments (getting ready to move, for one) that take up most of my time. I try to keep up with the reading, but I can't post all the time. I suppose that could be considered lurking, but it's definitely not a scumplay. I underestimated how much time the game was going to take, I suppose. As far as taking a strong position is concerned, like I've said before, I'm not going to take a strong position if I'm not certain of it, and at this point I'm definitely not certain of anything, except that I'm fairly sure Galz and timchen are both town, like I said before.

[pingpongsam]

PPS: Do you have a town read, null read, or scum read on Eevee?

Initially Town for a long time. Recent play could be interpreted as scummy. I'd have to call it null at this point.

Position smell says all of his play is ultimately pro-town.

Logic says he is scummy for insisting manda to be Town and voting against Galzria.

I could support an Eevee lynch if a case could be made which I believe I asked for previously to no avail (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm really trying to avoid the case building business since I got burned so bad with Frisk. My M6 play was about smells and I'm running with that formula here.

Questions back to Galz;
Do you really, actually want us to lynch you to progress the game or would you prefer we wait and try to smoke out some real scum?

If you think someone else is high prob scum do you have any angles on that?

[pingpongsam]

Do you really, actually want us to lynch you to progress the game or would you prefer we wait and try to smoke out some real scum?

Also, if you flip Town, what then? Who would you be looking at?

[timchen]

Oh I agree with your analysis I was just relishing the irony of the pot noting the particular shade of gray sported by kettle.

We still have time and we still haven't heard from some of those I suspect most but I find the lack of a hammer on Galzria an indicator that he may well be scum.

Do you really think scum would come along and say "Oh lookie! Goodie goodie! L-1! How delicious! HAMMMMMMMMMER!"?

In this case, the only reason that no scum is hammering is because eevee is scum.

[Galzria]

PPS: Do you have a town read, null read, or scum read on Eevee?

Initially Town for a long time. Recent play could be interpreted as scummy. I'd have to call it null at this point.

Position smell says all of his play is ultimately pro-town.

Logic says he is scummy for insisting manda to be Town and voting against Galzria.

I could support an Eevee lynch if a case could be made which I believe I asked for previously to no avail (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm really trying to avoid the case building business since I got burned so bad with Frisk. My M6 play was about smells and I'm running with that formula here.

Questions back to Galz;
Do you really, actually want us to lynch you to progress the game or would you prefer we wait and try to smoke out some real scum?

If you think someone else is high prob scum do you have any angles on that?

Pah. It's a difficult question. If we lynch someone else and are wrong, it's gameover - there is no lylo. With Timchen voting for me tomorrow, scum win because all they need is one misplaced vote, and he'll be providing it.

In that sense, if we look for scum elsewhere, we must treat today as lylo... And there are simply more targets to choose from (although one miscast vote doesn't ruin us). So it's tough.

With Timchen willing to hand the scum their wincon tomorrow by voting me, it does almost feel better to lynch me and remove that situation. The problem is, I don't want to be a Vig here... That is, I really don't want to say "lynch me then sheep my reads" because while I DO think I'm right on Eevee, it's not my game to win or lose. It's a team game, and I'm not willing to stake the entire team win on my read.

That said, there is probably a pretty good chance that if you lynch me now, Timchen gets NK'd for being essentially an Innocent Child (how I view him at least). This leaves Eevee/YN/PPS/Manda/SB... This thread will get so quiet, lol! No, really, outside my own, personal beliefs on Eevee, any of those 5 could be scum. So I would ask that Eevee is certainly considered, but that each person makes their own decision based on their own reads.

[timchen]

That is, ok, I read your post about manda. In my thoughts:

1. Are you a stupid cop? WTF...
2. Ok, if not, are you then a scum fakeclaiming? (you stopped here and say yes, but I will continue as below)
3. If you were, then you are just drawing attention onto yourself with no benefit (as nobody will really think you are a cop because it is stupid for a cop to claim)
4. So you are probably not a scum fakeclaiming. Then what are you doing? And then I will ask. It is so obvious it shouldn't hurt to ask right?

And that is in my eyes what happened in my instance. And I explained what I said is just that. And later I speak out of what I kept secret and why. But then you are attacking me without reason.

There was no reason to take it further. A cop does not have a reason to make that claim. Scum does. End of story. Are you stupid cop or scum? I figured scum. Now it's neither. Now the claim was just stupid.

I never attacked you without reason. Not once. My case was laid out prior to yours, and every response I made after was in response to false accusations you made against me.

Scum has no reason either as I outlined above. Can you not read that?

I don't just believe that you're wrong, I know that you are, because I've seen scum do it. Just because you don't think something can happen doesn't mean that it can not.

As I said if scum does that it is stupid scum. Not disapproving my point.

The whole point is that scum CANNOT do that to their advantage. Therefore, you cannot judge that they are scum by the fact they are doing that. Just like what I have done in this game.

[Galzria]

That is, ok, I read your post about manda. In my thoughts:

1. Are you a stupid cop? WTF...
2. Ok, if not, are you then a scum fakeclaiming? (you stopped here and say yes, but I will continue as below)
3. If you were, then you are just drawing attention onto yourself with no benefit (as nobody will really think you are a cop because it is stupid for a cop to claim)
4. So you are probably not a scum fakeclaiming. Then what are you doing? And then I will ask. It is so obvious it shouldn't hurt to ask right?

And that is in my eyes what happened in my instance. And I explained what I said is just that. And later I speak out of what I kept secret and why. But then you are attacking me without reason.

There was no reason to take it further. A cop does not have a reason to make that claim. Scum does. End of story. Are you stupid cop or scum? I figured scum. Now it's neither. Now the claim was just stupid.

I never attacked you without reason. Not once. My case was laid out prior to yours, and every response I made after was in response to false accusations you made against me.

Scum has no reason either as I outlined above. Can you not read that?

I don't just believe that you're wrong, I know that you are, because I've seen scum do it. Just because you don't think something can happen doesn't mean that it can not.

As I said if scum does that it is stupid scum. Not disapproving my point.

The whole point is that scum CANNOT do that to their advantage. Therefore, you cannot judge that they are scum by the fact they are doing that. Just like what I have done in this game.

And yet Robz breadcrumbed doctor D2 in M-II, full claimed it D3, and that remains to this point the only perfect Mafia win.

[timchen]

Galz: two point I want to make to you.

1. Please explain why you only wanted to discuss with me these "logical questions" ~3 days after I have been accusing you being self-contradictory.

2. I am willing to concede that my read on you might be more from that you are illogical rather than that you are scum. The only catch is that you really only start to show how illogical you are today.

p.s.

3. I am not saying now I think you are town. But I am at this point not interested in knowing the answer to that question any more. You still control my vote. So make good use of it. And to the rest of town: if you are afraid of Galz's such power, you have to lynch him today.

[timchen]

@Galz: I'll go ahead and read that and tell you what I think afterwards.

[Galzria]

Galz: two point I want to make to you.

1. Please explain why you only wanted to discuss with me these "logical questions" ~3 days after I have been accusing you being self-contradictory.

2. I am willing to concede that my read on you might be more from that you are illogical rather than that you are scum. The only catch is that you really only start to show how illogical you are today.

p.s.

3. I am not saying now I think you are town. But I am at this point not interested in knowing the answer to that question any more. You still control my vote. So make good use of it. And to the rest of town: if you are afraid of Galz's such power, you have to lynch him today.

I haven't waited until today... I've been arguing with you almost nonstop for the past 2 days (felt like 2 weeks, lol)

[timchen]

Yeah. But I didn't realize we have that different reasoning at such fundamental level.

[shark_bait]

You realize part of why I haven't said much... is because it's been so damn difficult to make it through all of the banter between you two.  The pace at which it has come down combined with the level of accusations thrown around is quite challenging to follow. To be honest, the most helpful thing about your discussion was tc's post which had post numbers listed and Galz's response to it.  Consequently, I don't see myself voting for either of you today.

My vote will continue to stay on Eevee due the combination of my assumption regarding mafia play and my gut instinct.  Apart from my D1 shenanigans, manda's play seems similar to myself actually.  Not really posting too much.  But making sure to get some posts in and respond when called upon.  As a first timer like me, I'm actually inclined to think that she really is playing protown.  I could be wrong but I guess right now I'm getting more of a read that tells me that she is "semi" new and learning the ropes.

[timchen]

But making sure to get some posts in and respond when called upon.

I thought this is called expert lurking and is more mafia play?

[shark_bait]

Is it?  This is my first (real) mafia game.  I can't say I have the best experience for scum tells and town tells yet.

[timchen]

Sigh. Apparently asking me is asking the wrong person. I don't know honestly. It's a null read for me. But it is the scum playstyle that is hardest to catch, simply because there are town players who have to play like that just because of their schedule.

[timchen]

And yet Robz breadcrumbed doctor D2 in M-II, full claimed it D3, and that remains to this point the only perfect Mafia win.

Now I start wondering again. I think you are faking to be unreasonable. This one is to the extreme, or you assume I won't spend two hours going there and check.

Seriously, how is MII any relevant to the case we are discussing? The way Robz breadcrumbed is such that it cannot be discovered d2. Does my statement that "Oh! I have a secret reason why eevee is town" look anything like that? And I thought we finally start to understand what each other is talking about.

It is precisely what I said. The claim HAS to be a claim that can not be noticed d2. If people knew Robz is doctor d2, was still alive d3 and had missed 2 saves, they would lynch him in no time.

Someone please come in and lynch Galzria. I really beg you for it. All his arguments are inconsistent and fake.

[Galzria]

And yet Robz breadcrumbed doctor D2 in M-II, full claimed it D3, and that remains to this point the only perfect Mafia win.

Now I start wondering again. I think you are faking to be unreasonable. This one is to the extreme, or you assume I won't spend two hours going there and check.

Seriously, how is MII any relevant to the case we are discussing? The way Robz breadcrumbed is such that it cannot be discovered d2. Does my statement that "Oh! I have a secret reason why eevee is town" look anything like that? And I thought we finally start to understand what each other is talking about.

It is precisely what I said. The claim HAS to be a claim that can not be noticed d2. If people knew Robz is doctor d2, was still alive d3 and had missed 2 saves, they would lynch him in no time.

Someone please come in and lynch Galzria. I really beg you for it. All his arguments are inconsistent and fake.

You think it's easy for a Doctor to just pick and choose who he saves and get it right? Missing 2 saves is really pretty easy to explain away... And look, he did! And like I said, the only reason it worked is because he DIDN'T get called out on it D2, which is exactly why I DID call you out here. Because choosing to ignore it if you were scum = scum win.

[timchen]

You still don't get my point? My point is that my initial claim already makes this impossible. In MII what Robz did in d2 cannot be viewed as a softclaim in that day.

Say what he said early d2 was "I knew K wouldn't be dead last night." Now this is something comparable to what I have said. If he has said that and nobody further questioned (well it would already be a miracle if nobody questioned) and not dead 2nd night, if he fullclaimed d3 he will be lynched.

You see, if you put it in such an obvious way yet the scum did not respond to it by NK you, there are only two possibilities: (1) the scums are too incompetent (2) you are scum fakeclaiming. And this is precisely why in this plan you cannot softclaim in an obvious way.

In other words, in our current case, it does not matter at all if you didn't call me out. If I survived second night and claim full cop, it is just too fake for any conscious townie to believe. Because if my claim is genuine there is 0% chance the scum chose not to kill me n2.

[timchen]

Seriously, it will be disgusting if you are town. It is not because I read you wrong; it is because your logic and reasoning is pathetic and I have wasted so much time trying to probe things out from nothing.

[Galzria]

Seriously, it will be disgusting if you are town. It is not because I read you wrong; it is because your logic and reasoning is pathetic and I have wasted so much time trying to probe things out from nothing.

That would be true if your case against me had any merit, and it never has. So yes, I suppose you have wasted your time to "probe things out" for nothing in that sense.

[timchen]

Yeah, I see we agree here. If you flipped scum then my case has merit. I would be happier if that is the case. Also you are more logical in this case so you can be happier too.

But if you were town apparent my case wouldn't have merit. And I have just wasted my whole time. And further we are one step closer to losing. No one is happy.