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[shark_bait]

@tc... so you see Galz+X???  Why not Eevee+X?

More and more, Sharky is feeling like town to me. There was so much suspicion on him yestergameday that if he were mafia I feel like he would have altered his play style somewhat, and it still feels the same to me.

I think the words I would use to describe manda are wishy washy.  Her actions D2 seem quite similar to D1 in the desire to remain inconspicuous.  It seems kinda suspicious to me, but it's hard to get a read on it.  I would hammer today if necessary.

Ok. But we cannot let frisk die in vain.

From his death I think we can distinguish people into three lists:
Wanted to lynch him: me, Galz, Robz, PPS
Ok to lynch him: SB, Manda
Unwilling to lynch him: eevee, YN

The consensus seems to be, no one knew Robz had a power role. I wouldn't expect him to hint he has one either, so this does not surprise me. I dont remember Robz arguing very hard for anyones scumminess, so doesnt seem like he was killed for pointing out the mafia either, so the only logical conclusion I can come to is he was killed for being experienced and good in this game. Which is kind of sad, because I dont think that tells us much about the mafia family that did it, anyone can kill  for that reason.

@manda
Interesting. I think the fact you are accusing me makes you look very much like town to be honest. The reason is: after what happened yesterday, I'm not an easy lynch. I think accusing me first thing in the morning would just be way too bold of a mafia play (I dont think they want to be very controversial atm). Relatively confident you are town now, so that is good.

I'm pretty sure I've posted this argument before.  I can't remember if it was before or after this post, but I have a reason for the mafia to kill Robz.  Robz was defending me as town.  By removing him, mafia just made things potentially easier for forming a wagon on the scummy D1 sharky.  The interaction with manda also intrigued me.  A "you voted for me I think you're town" kinda of attitude from Eevee said about manda due to manda's accusing what is deemed "a difficult lynch". 

Okay, so, she thinks I'm scummy and shark_bait towny. The general consensus around town day1 was certainly more like the opposite, especially after Frisk flipped town (sharkie was voting for him, I was indomitably trying to save him). So, if she was mafia, I would assume she would go after easier targets. Mafia wants to pick someone they know town already suspects, and try to form a wagon. At the time (this was before Galzria and a few others said they think I'm scummy) I dont think manda saw much of a chance to build an Eevee-wagon, which leads me to think she genuinely thought I was scummy and is not a lying mafia. She didnt even mention anyone else, so it did not feel to me like a mafia trying to lead town to a mislynch but rather like a townie in the dark trying her hardest to think about the game and form an idea of whats going on.

Obviously not like a bulletproof read or anything like that, but a read none the less. Would others agree with the thought process?

The bold rests my case against Eevee.  In describing what a mafia would do Eevee is describing the exact actions taken against me.

@tc, in response to your request for thoughts regarding you and TC.  Right now, I'm inclined to see two townies seeing things from a different side of the fence (of the same duplex).    I think we could do better than either of you with a D2 lynch.  Eevee is my top choice, manda as well.

If Galz is lynched and turns town I'll probably suspect you.  This could be an elaborate ploy on your part to lynch galz and then push the Eevee wagon because if Galz wasn't scum... then Eevee certainly must be due to your arguments already posted regarding the numbers.  IMO, TC+(manda, PPS, YN) is a potential mafia pair. I feel like I'm rambling now... I know I've got some more thoughts in my head about this, but I'll be gone for a good 3-4 hours now and just want to put this out there.

@Eevee, my thoughts are making me less suspicious of you as my post would make you believe.  But as I read through D2, that was kinda the ordering of how my mind went and I just want to put everything out there.

[timchen]

@shark: in short, I don't understand you...
Your first point does not really hold, (I agree that a Robz kill makes you unlikely mafia as you previously argued), since one, in your scenario, mafia will only do this if they realize both that Robz are one of few of your supporters and that would continue to be the case. You know, mafia tend to concentrate more on themselves, who suspects them who doesn't, etc. Second, if what you said were true, we should see some early wagon today on you going. But that didn't happen.

And about the second point, I don't understand at all. Are you just basically saying you suspect eevee because he suspects you?

For the record, I think you are just a bit scummier due to that frisk is town and you are the hammerer. Ant that is pretty much what eevee is talking about I assume. And eevee is a bit more townier because he tried to stop us from lynching a townie.

And lastly, can you reiterate why Galz does not look scummy to you? I think PPS made a good point on this issue: originally he's not particularly scummy, but his strange insistence on my fakeclaim and me and eevee pairing can only be understood as from a scum. Seriously, when have you ever seen a scum fakeclaim for nothing? and also (sort of) buddying up with his scumbuddy? LOL

[Young Nick]

@shark: in short, I don't understand you...
Your first point does not really hold, (I agree that a Robz kill makes you unlikely mafia as you previously argued), since one, in your scenario, mafia will only do this if they realize both that Robz are one of few of your supporters and that would continue to be the case. You know, mafia tend to concentrate more on themselves, who suspects them who doesn't, etc. Second, if what you said were true, we should see some early wagon today on you going. But that didn't happen.

And about the second point, I don't understand at all. Are you just basically saying you suspect eevee because he suspects you?

For the record, I think you are just a bit scummier due to that frisk is town and you are the hammerer. Ant that is pretty much what eevee is talking about I assume. And eevee is a bit more townier because he tried to stop us from lynching a townie.

And lastly, can you reiterate why Galz does not look scummy to you? I think PPS made a good point on this issue: originally he's not particularly scummy, but his strange insistence on my fakeclaim and me and eevee pairing can only be understood as from a scum. Seriously, when have you ever seen a scum fakeclaim for nothing? and also (sort of) buddying up with his scumbuddy? LOL

To me, the most curious aspect of Galzria's play is his (non-)defense upon receiving accusation. He makes a, "I told you so" argument and ignores some points, ultimately saying very little. His play seems...disinterested. Now, this obviously could change, but that is not pro-town behavior. Even if he is town, that lack of rally is concerning for the town headed forward if he makes it to d3.

[timchen]

@shark, also, for your very first question... I believe I have explained why I think eevee is town in

.

@Young_Nick: Indeed. The only interpretation I can get is that Galzria is mafia and he has given up fighting. One exotic possibility is that he is a provoked town but honestly I don't really see what has provoked him if he is VT.

@Galria: if you are VT please just show me I am wrong on my above statement to YN!

[timchen]

@shark: I suddenly understood a part of your confusion.

My argument, simply put is this:
1. suppose eevee is scum
2. his behavior suggested he must have planned this with somebody on the wagon
3. The only person I can see that to be possible is Galzria, however, due to his attitude toward eevee I deem this is impossible.
4. conclusion: eevee is likely town.

(I would also like to note that in your eyes this argument does not exclude a me-eevee pair possibility. Also PPS-eevee, while I figure it as unlikely, cannot be ruled out such as Galzria-eevee I would say. I will leave the rest of you to decide whether it is more likely that eevee pairs with me or PPS or in fact he is town.)

As you can see, this argument can not determine whether Galzria is town or not. But if eevee is town and I assume a 1-1 split, the likeliest scum pair for me is either Galz-manda or Galz-YN.

(In a sense, if I want to focus on the 1-1 case, then Galzria is my top suspect because the only competition he has is with PPS. And this is why I don't want to reveal my argument in the first place as it shows that I am considering Galz+X pairing possibilities, which may affect how he treats his partner.)

[Galzria]

@shark: in short, I don't understand you...
Your first point does not really hold, (I agree that a Robz kill makes you unlikely mafia as you previously argued), since one, in your scenario, mafia will only do this if they realize both that Robz are one of few of your supporters and that would continue to be the case. You know, mafia tend to concentrate more on themselves, who suspects them who doesn't, etc. Second, if what you said were true, we should see some early wagon today on you going. But that didn't happen.

And about the second point, I don't understand at all. Are you just basically saying you suspect eevee because he suspects you?

For the record, I think you are just a bit scummier due to that frisk is town and you are the hammerer. Ant that is pretty much what eevee is talking about I assume. And eevee is a bit more townier because he tried to stop us from lynching a townie.

And lastly, can you reiterate why Galz does not look scummy to you? I think PPS made a good point on this issue: originally he's not particularly scummy, but his strange insistence on my fakeclaim and me and eevee pairing can only be understood as from a scum. Seriously, when have you ever seen a scum fakeclaim for nothing? and also (sort of) buddying up with his scumbuddy? LOL

To me, the most curious aspect of Galzria's play is his (non-)defense upon receiving accusation. He makes a, "I told you so" argument and ignores some points, ultimately saying very little. His play seems...disinterested. Now, this obviously could change, but that is not pro-town behavior. Even if he is town, that lack of rally is concerning for the town headed forward if he makes it to d3.

It's not disinterest, it's that I've seen enough games go by that the cases of the dead are dropped in future days because they're bogged down by a defense that ultimately serves no purpose. I've made my cases for both Eevee's play, and Timchen's. The best response either has given is Eevee "I was too pro-town fighting to save CF to be scum!" (It's really funny that Eevee was pushing this D1 when the only way to know CF was town was to be scum), and Timchen "lol, what Gslz suggests is to crazy to be true!" (Not really a resounding defense, eh? Especially because what he claims has "never been done by scum before" is exactly what scum did in M-IV and M-II (by which I mean unprovoked claims) - so it's exactly in line with what I'd expect).

I've also stated that I'm VT, so the claim is out of the way (btw, claimed that with 0 votes on me). At this point jumping up and down screaming "you're making a mistake" won't really change anything. A Galzria lynch would result in lylo for the town. However if you follow that path, then sheep my reads, you're still likely to win. What more can I say? Going all hellbent to save myself will just be anti-town in the long run because the incentive to read back through all the muck will be decreased. I made my cases based on logic and without confirmation bias (of which I have stronger and stronger reads on, but don't carry as much weight).

You should lynch Timchen first, but if it takes my death to see this, Cest la vie.

[Young Nick]

@timchen: You have talked about him before, but in your rebuttal to S_B, any reference of him as one of the people on the wagon is mysteriously absent. Do you really see him town with that much confidence? Or is there some other reason I am not seeing.

Warning: Quick-posting this so I am not re-reading your recent posts to see if you discussed S_B earlier today (as in IRL today).

[Eevee]

timchen's posts make so much sense to me, I have a hard time believing town Galzria would dismiss them the way he has this far.* My logical explanation for Galzria behaving that way would be that Galzria is mafia and has to try to discredit timchen the best he can because timchen is too close to the truth.

*I myself agree with timchen a lot, so I might over-appreciate his arguments. Still, Galzria seems to think they are complete rubbish which is just weird to me. I would expect him to say "I see why you think that, but..." not go like "obv mafia lying is obv". Galzria, I am town and to me timchen is making a lot of sense. If you actually pointed out why he is so obviously wrong, I might change my mind about him... at the moment you just seem oh so much scummier to me than he does.

[manda2014]

@manda: Actually, it seems I cannot find your original case against eevee, except based on some sort of overall feeling... If you have something more specific, do you mind pointing it out where it is?

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I should have said "stated my READ on eevee several times." I have stated a case bit of a case against him, though. See post #881. His repeated insistence that he cannot be mafia because he argued so vehemently to save Frisk, who turned up town, is ridiculous.

PPS, I understand your suspicion of me, but I think it's just because we have very different playstyles. I'm really reluctant to say I'm 100% sure about something unless I absolutely am, which I'm not. There is so much WIFOM involved that I can't be totally sure any one person (other than myself, obviously) is town/mafia, and I'm not going to claim to be sure if I'm not.

[manda2014]

Galz, you seem like town to me still, but refusing to discuss things is not helping your case at all. If you were in imminent danger of a lynch, your strategy of "not posting to not clutter up what I've said so people can follow what I've said" might make sense. At this point, it just keeps real discussion from happening.

[timchen]

@YN: good catch there. So there are two reasons: first is that by on the wagon I actually meant "the 4 of us that were on the wagon for a long time." If you recall I divided people into 3 groups early d2. So if to include Shark I would say we have to consider the pairing (PPS, me, Galz; Shark) and (Manda, you; Shark) in addition to what I have been talking lately. The second reason is shark's analysis how unlikely he will kill Robz if he were mafia makes lots of sense to me (even though himself puts a big WIFOM there.) So I am willing to put him off my suspicion list for now. Actually PPS is similar; while I mention him I never seriously consider the possibilities involving he is one of scum.

@Galzria: sure, planned unprovoked fakeclaim is possible. But how possible is such claim immediately retracted and later explained with reason how that is not a claim? Not only it is just unlikely, but I just don't see any reason for a scum to do this except stupid play. But stupid play may as well come from town.

In addition, let me just say for the sake of the argument that your case on me is valid. Even then, I can't find any logical reason for you to be so sure that eevee is also scum. Does the good words from a scum toward another player make that player definitely scum?

Combining everything I cannot make any other conclusion that you are scum. If you flipped town after we lynch you, well, unlike frisk which I feel terribly sorry about his lynch, I will only be angry about you because your lynch is a direct result of your play.

[Galzria]

@YN: good catch there. So there are two reasons: first is that by on the wagon I actually meant "the 4 of us that were on the wagon for a long time." If you recall I divided people into 3 groups early d2. So if to include Shark I would say we have to consider the pairing (PPS, me, Galz; Shark) and (Manda, you; Shark) in addition to what I have been talking lately. The second reason is shark's analysis how unlikely he will kill Robz if he were mafia makes lots of sense to me (even though himself puts a big WIFOM there.) So I am willing to put him off my suspicion list for now. Actually PPS is similar; while I mention him I never seriously consider the possibilities involving he is one of scum.

@Galzria: sure, planned unprovoked fakeclaim is possible. But how possible is such claim immediately retracted and later explained with reason how that is not a claim? Not only it is just unlikely, but I just don't see any reason for a scum to do this except stupid play. But stupid play may as well come from town.

In addition, let me just say for the sake of the argument that your case on me is valid. Even then, I can't find any logical reason for you to be so sure that eevee is also scum. Does the good words from a scum toward another player make that player definitely scum?

Combining everything I cannot make any other conclusion that you are scum. If you flipped town after we lynch you, well, unlike frisk which I feel terribly sorry about his lynch, I will only be angry about you because your lynch is a direct result of your play.

No, my lynch would be a direct result of your play, as you've made it clear you were out "looking" for Galz+X since you softclaimed (in fact, you claim now that was your reasoning for only "softclaiming"). If I'm correct, that was... 2 pages? Into D2? You've been shooting for my lynch since the day began essentially, having "decided" I'm scum, and now you are trying to use the "I'll be angry town" excuse to defend your play. My "lynch" won't be anything but your own doing, but as scum, well, that really doesn't bother you now does it?

[timchen]

No, my lynch would be a direct result of your play, as you've made it clear you were out "looking" for Galz+X since you softclaimed (in fact, you claim now that was your reasoning for only "softclaiming"). If I'm correct, that was... 2 pages? Into D2? You've been shooting for my lynch since the day began essentially, having "decided" I'm scum, and now you are trying to use the "I'll be angry town" excuse to defend your play. My "lynch" won't be anything but your own doing, but as scum, well, that really doesn't bother you now does it?

Completely nonsense. Are you saying that I falseclaimed because I knew you would insist on accusing me falseclaiming?

As I said several times, my secrecy back then is because that I want to see how you respond to my suspicion on YN and Manda, without realizing that I am also suspecting you. This is entirely different from me focusing on you in the very beginning. In fact, before your insistence on my fakeclaim after lurking I do not more suspicion toward you than toward YN or manda (as suggested by my earlier votes.) The only reason you are my top almost-confirmed suspect is because your insistence on this crappy timchen-scum-fakeclaim-then-retract theory.

Seriously, and you have been avoiding answering this question. Tell me a valid reason why a scum would play like what I did. Fakeclaim and then immediately retract. And also how eevee becomes definitely scum in your eyes as well.

[Galzria]

No, my lynch would be a direct result of your play, as you've made it clear you were out "looking" for Galz+X since you softclaimed (in fact, you claim now that was your reasoning for only "softclaiming"). If I'm correct, that was... 2 pages? Into D2? You've been shooting for my lynch since the day began essentially, having "decided" I'm scum, and now you are trying to use the "I'll be angry town" excuse to defend your play. My "lynch" won't be anything but your own doing, but as scum, well, that really doesn't bother you now does it?

Completely nonsense. Are you saying that I falseclaimed because I knew you would insist on accusing me falseclaiming?

As I said several times, my secrecy back then is because that I want to see how you respond to my suspicion on YN and Manda, without realizing that I am also suspecting you. This is entirely different from me focusing on you in the very beginning. In fact, before your insistence on my fakeclaim after lurking I do not more suspicion toward you than toward YN or manda (as suggested by my earlier votes.) The only reason you are my top almost-confirmed suspect is because your insistence on this crappy timchen-scum-fakeclaim-then-retract theory.

Seriously, and you have been avoiding answering this question. Tell me a valid reason why a scum would play like what I did. Fakeclaim and then immediately retract. And also how eevee becomes definitely scum in your eyes as well.

Your first paragraph makes no sense, as I never said anything like that. What I said is that in the case you eventually put forth for Eevee being town, you made it clear that at the time that you "softclaimed" your votes and actions towards others were simply to not tip me off that you were really looking for the most likely Galz+X pairing.

My point being, that you coming out now trying to play the angry townie card after I flip town because I somehow "brought this on myself" is a ludicrous statement. You've made it more than clear that you were primarily focused on Galz+X since very early on in the day. If I get lynched, it won't be because of something I've magically done (or not done), it'll be because you've been pushing for me (or waiting to) since the day began.

As to why Eevee is likely scum, I've made the case on multiple occasions. If you're that interested (hint: you're not), you can go back and read. It's largely in part to your play, but mostly due to his own, owing to many of the same reasons Manda has picked up on (you've also ignored her about these reasons, or simply dismissed them altogether).

As far as your claim goes, like I stated at the start, it's stupid town play at best, and bad Mafia play at worst. The fact that it read as a softclaim was blatantly obvious, and you would have to be oblivious not to have realized that. Since I don't believe you to be that oblivious, I can only reason that you put it there intentionally. As town, this makes 0 sense. Why put in a claim you weren't able to backup? As scum however, it does make sense because if you can get by on just the soft-claim (clearing your partner), all you need is one mislynch today and you reach town lylo.

But that didn't happen, did it? I called you out early. Now what? Do you risk a full-claim when 2/3 of the time you'll get  counter-claimed (disastrous for you at this point, because if we lynch the counter-claim first, you're dead to rights tomorrow - and if we lynch you first, well...)? No, you do the smart thing and back down. But now you're left needing to explain yourself, so you put together this story that Eevee must be town because you assume Galzria to be scum (essentially exactly what you produced). You use weak arguments claiming that Eevee and I were too much against each other prior to your "soft-claim" (We had had very little interaction up to that point), and you've since come out saying that no, you weren't after me early (a direct contradiction to the case you made for why Eevee must be town).

Add it all together, and what do you get? Timchen the Mafiosi!

[timchen]

Now this is a better post Galz. And I actually agree to your first paragraph!

The second paragraph does not make sense though. I am NOT pushing your wagon at all before your insistence on me fakeclaiming. (I voted for you before that, but that was just an attempt of trying to make you say more.) If you didn't insist I would imagine that the day would end with either YN or Manda lynch. Or just something else completely unrelated.

And third paragraph, I see what you and manda said. Didn't I even quote that as part of my galzria-eevee unpairing theory? I don't know why you say I don't care, because I really do, and you can also see that I do from my posts. Framing me this way is not going to work. The problem I have with the reasoning of you two is that it is just weak. Just try to think from a towny perspective. If I have tried to save a townie against the majority of the town and I was proved right, what is there so wrong about me thinking I should gain some town cred? And I did seriously consider the possibility that eevee can be scum as you can tell from me coming up with this eevee-Galz unpairing thing.

And fourth, doing so as scum does not make sense as you stated, as eevee is not at a stage that requires me clearing him. I can very well get by just by saying "I was not suspecting eevee for now." No need to mention any sort of secret reasoning at all. I don't know why you just keep ignoring the possibility that I am town and I was doing precisely what I said I was doing. Unlike what you are suggesting which is just by itself unlikely and unreasonable to happen, what I claimed I was doing is actually reasonable. I suspected something, figured the best way to scumhunt is to hide part of the things I am observing, and did just that.

And the funniest thing is, what I said I did actually DOES NOT point toward you as scum. What you are insisting, instead, did. You would have no reason not to consider the possibility what I said is just true (as it does not accuse you, who if you are VT is the only one you know to be innocent), unless you are scum and is now just stuck with your theory.

So, tl;dr, I now officially consider you are scum. I can give up my angry town theory now. No need to worry about that.

[O]

note: mafia VII and mafia VIII have way to similar #'s. My apologies

[timchen]

Oh, sorry, I misread your first paragraph. I think I have stated clearly enough: it's not that I didn't suspect YN and eevee at all. What I did is that I was scumhunting multiple people at the same time. The reason that I keep something secret is indeed solely due to the fact that I did not want you to realize that I was suspecting You+X at the moment, but my other accusations and votes carries their obvious purposes.

Why put in a claim you weren't able to backup? As scum however, it does make sense because if you can get by on just the soft-claim (clearing your partner), all you need is one mislynch today and you reach town lylo.

But that didn't happen, did it? I called you out early. Now what? Do you risk a full-claim when 2/3 of the time you'll get  counter-claimed (disastrous for you at this point, because if we lynch the counter-claim first, you're dead to rights tomorrow - and if we lynch you first, well...)? No, you do the smart thing and back down. But now you're left needing to explain yourself, so you put together this story that Eevee must be town because you assume Galzria to be scum (essentially exactly what you produced). You use weak arguments claiming that Eevee and I were too much against each other prior to your "soft-claim" (We had had very little interaction up to that point), and you've since come out saying that no, you weren't after me early (a direct contradiction to the case you made for why Eevee must be town).

And now let me reply a bit more in detail to this misleading theory.

In all seriousness, even if everyone in town took my secrecy as a softclaim without questioning it, they still have to choose one from eevee and manda to lynch. And there are several dubious people (including eevee) suggesting that even though it is quite likely that there are one scum among the two we should not forget to look elsewhere. So the mislynch is not going to happen any time soon as we don't have a particular target.

Now can you show me an example where an unprovoked claim did not point a specific target?

I don't think there is one (but I didn't read MII so feel free to correct me) because this play just does not make sense.

And okay, let's just suppose I made this stupid claim nonetheless. Now you say my backing up is wise. This is ridiculous. If it is a plan, then the plan has to be that I cannot back up, if as you said I tried to make people realize I am softclaiming.

The only way in your description for my supposedly scummy plan to work is for the town somehow to take my claim as true, choose one lynch target, and lynch him before questioning whether I really claimed or not. And I had to envision this as likely for me to put forth this plan. I dunno how to say, but it seems that you are suggesting me as both smart and stupid, and thinking deep and shallow at the same time.

And about the last theory, no, you are just wrong. My theory does not require you to be scum. Don't you see me discuss PPS and myself as well? The theory is that if eevee is scum he has to find a partner among (me, you, PPS). Then I say I know it is not me, PPS is unlikely, and you are the only candidate. But your assessment if him excluded you. While you and eevee did not say much to each other, my argument is not about how much you argued at all. It is about the fact that I think eevee's play has to be planned if he's scum, but if you guys planned it you would not have just pointed that out he would be faking it.

[Galzria]

Timchen, the below is the quote where you finally come out with your Eevee case. Your premises is this:

Eevee shouldn't be scum because he didn't vote for CF. (I've already pointed out there fallacy of this logic in my case on Eevee).

Furthermore, if Eevee WERE scum, he would need a partner, probably one on the wagon. (This is reasonable).

Of those on the wagon, he can't be partners with you because you know you're town. (Not much to that, you would say that regardless - but that doesn't make the statement true)

He can't be partners with me because we've gone after each other too much. (A reasonable case if you were making this case fresh when you posted it. But when you softclaimed the existence of this case way back when, this argument was invalid, and incredibly weak at best, as I had said two things to Eevee, and him just one to me).

He can't be partners with PPS because you read PPS as town. (You don't even provide a logical reason for this, instead stating "just because" - but this isn't even the worst one because....)

He can't be partners with SB because... Oh wait, you didn't even MENTION Shark_Bait.

To conclude, you admit your earlier play was just a bunch of nonsense to try and "catch me out" - and you admit that you've been primarily looking for/at Galz+X pairings.

O k, my case on eevee:

This originates from my d1 argument that if frisk is not scum, then eevee/YN/shark should not be. That argument based on the assumption that scum should have no obvious reason not to vote for frisk, upon repeated request when there are at least 3 townies on the wagon.

But after frisk said I'm crazy I realized there is one potential flaw: the scums do not play alone. So it is possible that scum have orchestrated a strategy such that they will split on a forming wagon. And since they cannot communicate during day, it is possible that they will just commit to the strategy.

In particular, in my eyes for eevee's play to make sense as a scum, it must be a coordinated play. It doesn't really make sense to throw away your flexibility as scum when it is completely unnecessary. Therefore if eevee is scum, there has to be a person on the wagon for long (me, galz, PPS) who is also scum. Furthermore, the two players must have planned in advance to play like that.

I know I am town (even though I can imagine from others eyes it might be possible that eevee and me are the scum pair), Galz and eevee had enough arguments d2 that have convinced me that they are not a pair, and PPS usually gives me a town read. Even if I assume he is scum I can hardly see him and eevee commit to such play.

So given that I assume that eevee's play has to be planned to be make sense, and there are no players on the wagon he could have made such plan with, my conclusion is therefore that eevee is likely town.

(Also, actually as you can read from here my suspicion now is Galz+X, where X is either YN or manda. My previous hideous attitude was trying to hide my suspicion on Galz and tried to see if I could see his response to other's wagon with no relation to himself. Now that he just responded that by lurking I guess that plan didn't quite work.)

Now however, you're trying to paint my insistence that this is the case full of fallacies that you presented as a scumlie. It's not, and it's all above to prove. You go so far NOW to claim that your above arguments don't actually paint me as scum.

You've been nothing but inconsistent, you've stated things that are quite simply false, you've misrepresented the truth, made leading arguments so full of holes that a cow would fall right through, and there's only one good reason for it all.

[timchen]

*they still have to choose one from YN and manda to lynch.

[timchen]

I think I have already pre-answered a majority of the points you mentioned here, but why not do a head-to-head confrontation?

Eevee shouldn't be scum because he didn't vote for CF. (I've already pointed out there fallacy of this logic in my case on Eevee).

This is not a premise and my argument is independent of this.

He can't be partners with me because we've gone after each other too much. (A reasonable case if you were making this case fresh when you posted it. But when you softclaimed the existence of this case way back when, this argument was invalid, and incredibly weak at best, as I had said two things to Eevee, and him just one to me).

As I said, my argument does not base on post counts. The point is the content, which you have doubly confirmed with two posts and it is enough for me.

He can't be partners with PPS because you read PPS as town. (You don't even provide a logical reason for this, instead stating "just because" - but this isn't even the worst one because....)

True. That is a weak point of the argument but I guess we both agree that PPS is town now right?

He can't be partners with SB because... Oh wait, you didn't even MENTION Shark_Bait.

I explained this earlier. (me, you, PPS, Robz) is different from sharky. He only reluctantly put down his vote near the end of d1. I think it should be obvious for you if you were town that for my theory sharky need not be included here. (If eevee is scum he must have planned this with his partner that is on the other end of the wagon... and sharky is not on the other end of the wagon most of the time!)

To conclude, you admit your earlier play was just a bunch of nonsense to try and "catch me out" - and you admit that you've been primarily looking for/at Galz+X pairings.

I admitted no such things. and see the quote below:

(by me)

(Also, actually as you can read from here my suspicion now is Galz+X, where X is either YN or manda. My previous hideous attitude was trying to hide my suspicion on Galz and tried to see if I could see his response to other's wagon with no relation to himself. Now that he just responded that by lurking I guess that plan didn't quite work.)

See the "now" there in the first sentence? Galz+X is the conclusion after your lurking. Not before. Which is consistent with everything that I have said. And just let me say that again:

1. I think there is a scum between YN and manda.
2. Their partner can be Galz. Note this is different from I am exclusively looking for Galz+X, but just that if it is indeed Galz+X Galz may provide us some information who that X is.
3. So I hid the reasoning why I put eevee away, in the hope that Galz did not realize he is in part of my suspicion and hope that if he is scum I will catch something.
4. Didn't work. Galz basically said nothing. eevee asks me whether I am suspicious of Galz.
5. Then to push things forward I may as well speak out my theory and put some pressure on Galz instead.

Now however, you're trying to paint my insistence that this is the case full of fallacies that you presented as a scumlie. It's not, and it's all above to prove. You go so far NOW to claim that your above arguments don't actually paint me as scum.

So now I have explained how my play is consistent with what I said, even with the nitpicking you are doing with it. How do you explain me playing scum starting with that fakeclaim? Epic bad scum suicide and then double suicide by having eevee buddying up with me?

You've been nothing but inconsistent, you've stated things that are quite simply false, you've misrepresented the truth, made leading arguments so full of holes that a cow would fall right through, and there's only one good reason for it all.

This is a very truth statement, but misdirected.

[timchen]

Actually I found my posts in the previous two pages are a lot easier to understand, upon rereading them. Galz you did a good job of "if you cannot convince people, confuse them."

But now I am so certain. I shouldn't have given you the rope ("my angry townie theory") and let you try to fight back using it as a weapon against me. Dear town, please lynch Galzria. If he flips town, you can lynch me. (If that is the case, then we lost unfortunately because I am also town; but that is never going to happen.)

(I was tempted to say dear town, if you wish please lynch me. I will flip town then you can lynch Galzria and manda. The problem of that is I am not yet 100% sure manda is the other mafia. And if she is not and the town lynched me first, we would still lose even if we lynch Galzria correctly.)

[Galzria]

Tim, question for you:

If we're both town, who would the Mafia pair be? Personally (and this goes back to a D1 guess I made to Voltgloss in a PM), I think YN/Eevee(or PPS).

Actually, this is a good exercise for everybody. If Tim and I are two town fighting, where are the Mafia Pair?

[timchen]

Ok. To answer this question I think I have to disregard your previous ~5 posts about me and my alleged fake claim. In that case, I think there are two distinct possibilities:

The major possibility is that PPS is scum. I still believe there has to be 1 scum among the first 4 voters of frisk. But in that case I am not sure at all who is the remaining scum. So (PPS; YN, eevee, manda, shark) are all possible.

There can be an off chance that the scum just watched us 4 townies lynching another townie with interest. But I have no read for this case... given that this is the case I would say eevee looks most suspicious. Shark can even be that sad 5th townie.
 

[pingpongsam]

If we're both town, who would the Mafia pair be?

Ah, so now calling pairs is okay per the veteran player! 

My vote is on manda, so there's one half from my corner.

A strong possibility of manda's scumbuddy is Eevee.

Believe it or not I could see a YN/Sharky pair as I read through the history. Ballsy D1 play but perfectly scummy D2 play. YN remains fixated on Sharky knowing that wagon was just a ruse to begin with. When a sufficient town vs. town wagon develops, preferably with Sharky getting in early YN can make the pounce or just stay on the sidelines and remain clear of the fray.

timchen has come off fairly scummy to me in the Galzria scuffle. Call it what he will but he fakeclaimed. If I have a secret in this game I don't run around telling everyone I have a secret. The secret itself is kept secret. Granted, in M6 the secret itself was made un-secret but that dynamic hinged on having a mail carrier role who was effectively disseminating the secret so the more people who received it the less secret the actual secret needed to be. In this game with the jailer dead the only reason to reveal the presence of a secret is to sway heat off a towny about to be lynched. Even then, utmost tact should be exercised so as not to reveal the PR this early. It was a fakeclaim and it smells scummy.

I do not have an acceptable pair to timchen as most everyone except Galzria fits the bill.

[pingpongsam]

Another exercise:

Scummy--- manda, YN, timchen, sharky, Eevee, Galzria, PPS ---Towny