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[Galzria]

Good job Galz. So you actually accepted to be lynched first?

Nope, I hope the rest of the town reads my case and realizes that I'm right before lynching me - They are more than welcome to join me in lynching you instead. You can't lynch me without them after all. I just have little interest in cluttering up the cases I've made with 1001 defensive posts. I'm Vanilla Townie, plain and simple. Nothing more to say.

[timchen]

Also I have explained completely what I didn't say and why I didn't at that time. It's up to you to insist that was a soft-claim which I then backed up (why would scum do that anyway?) but if you were town I would expect you to at least read through my later posts and comment on them. Your insistence on this case confirms that you are scum.

[Eevee]

That was a weird reaction, Galz. Do you honestly objectively believe your case is THAT strong? Strong enough you dont need to fight for it at all? "Just read through my posts and do the right thing" isnt really helping your case to the maximum, which I'm hoping you would do as town because you know, you could convince me and I could unvote and maybe go after sharkie or Nick (next guys on my suspicion list).
That's not going to turn my head though. Doesnt look like someone wanting to help town, not at all.

[Galzria]

Sure Timchen, I'll do you the honor of one response:

First, here's your Softclaim that later became NOT a softclaim after having been called out over it:

Ok. If I didn't overlook something then only sharky hasn't replied. But I think the concensus is fairly obvious that we had a better chance to look for scum on the off-wagon side: among eevee, young_nick, and manda.

I have some reasons to believe that eevee is town. (I will reveal if necessary.)
Among the remaining two, Young_nick is consistently hedging, while manda speaks of on-the-look-reasonable things, but gives me a feeling of being a notch more stupid than what I initially perceived. Look at her recent reply! Sounds reasonable, but if you look into it, lacks substance.

So: FoS: manda

Before I switch my vote here, I'd also like everyone to weigh in if you do not mind, that who do you think is the scummier of the two. Manda or Young_Nick.

At the time OF that claim, I had made 8 responses in the thread, and only 1 of which was to Eevee (and wasn't in any way an argumentative statement), yet you seem to come back NOW, and state your claim over Eevee being town was because he and I had been arguing too much to be a reasonable scum-pair:

Ok, my case on eevee:

This originates from my d1 argument that if frisk is not scum, then eevee/YN/shark should not be. That argument based on the assumption that scum should have no obvious reason not to vote for frisk, upon repeated request when there are at least 3 townies on the wagon.

But after frisk said I'm crazy I realized there is one potential flaw: the scums do not play alone. So it is possible that scum have orchestrated a strategy such that they will split on a forming wagon. And since they cannot communicate during day, it is possible that they will just commit to the strategy.

In particular, in my eyes for eevee's play to make sense as a scum, it must be a coordinated play. It doesn't really make sense to throw away your flexibility as scum when it is completely unnecessary. Therefore if eevee is scum, there has to be a person on the wagon for long (me, galz, PPS) who is also scum. Furthermore, the two players must have planned in advance to play like that.

I know I am town (even though I can imagine from others eyes it might be possible that eevee and me are the scum pair), Galz and eevee had enough arguments d2 that have convinced me that they are not a pair, and PPS usually gives me a town read. Even if I assume he is scum I can hardly see him and eevee commit to such play.

So given that I assume that eevee's play has to be planned to be make sense, and there are no players on the wagon he could have made such plan with, my conclusion is therefore that eevee is likely town.

(Also, actually as you can read from here my suspicion now is Galz+X, where X is either YN or manda. My previous hideous attitude was trying to hide my suspicion on Galz and tried to see if I could see his response to other's wagon with no relation to himself. Now that he just responded that by lurking I guess that plan didn't quite work.)

Your case posted NOW doesn't match what had happened in the thread at the time that you made your soft-claim. You *couldn't* have had a town read on Eevee due to him and I being an impossible pair based on our interactions because when you made your soft-claim we hadn't had any interactions at that point.

You made a soft-claim, got called out on it, backed down, and now have tried to justify it with a verifiably false claim. You're scum doing your very best to lead the town.

[timchen]

Well, here are the posts I was talking about: (before I make my claim that I have a secret reason to think that eevee is town)
#732

Well that sucked.

Eevee, your "I told you so's" seem SO confident and cocky. It's not the first time you've said it, and it's just amazing how SURE you've been. Care to explain how all your reads are so good with such little information?

Also, Robz was either our only PR, or we have a cop. If we have a cop and they investigated town, they should not say - period.

If we have a cop and they investigated scum, they should try to lynch said scum without claiming, and only claim as a last resort.

#768

As for my suspicions: I'm strongly leaning towards Nick, but I can't yet put my finger on it. I'll need to review all of his posts. Eevee is a strong second choice given his over-the-top confidence on his reads - and the fact that while the CF wagon was steaming along, he kept pressure on another townie for lynch - me - and my wagon almost took off a few times. It felt like scum staying off a known town wagon, while pushing another - because he won't get called out until we're both killed and flip town, at which point it's lylo for town.

Ok, it's probably my bad of calling these "arguments", but these two are precisely the things you wouldn't have pointed out if you are partners with eevee. That's where my reasoning was forming.

And of course, there are later confirmations you made further on your viewpoint of eevee. So I think my reasoning has a solid ground. Saying I fabricated those up is at best stupid (just to think how likely it is if I did intend to fakeclaim then decided to withdraw at the very first chance it being pointed out and actually found a valid reason to explain what I was doing) and at worst scum.

For the sake of the argument, let me still suppose you are town. Why on earth do I have to fake claim at that point? Eevee is in no immediate danger of being lynched or anything. Is it consistent to think I am stupid enough to fakeclaim for nothing then later smart enough to find such lengthy reasoning?

[timchen]

So, in conclusion, I have to say your crappy theory of my fakeclaim in addition to your strange insistence on it makes it a compulsive case for me to identify you as scum.

What does everyone else think?

[timchen]

On an entirely separate issue: Galz, how did you quote me several pages ago with my name and time stamp on it? If I hit reply on this page I cannot find the post more than a page ago.

[manda2014]

On an entirely separate issue: Galz, how did you quote me several pages ago with my name and time stamp on it? If I hit reply on this page I cannot find the post more than a page ago.

You can click the quote button in the top right of each post.

[timchen]

On an entirely separate issue: Galz, how did you quote me several pages ago with my name and time stamp on it? If I hit reply on this page I cannot find the post more than a page ago.

You can click the quote button in the top right of each post.

I know, but how do I hit that button for a post pages ago?

Also, would you like to come in and comment between me and Galzria?

[manda2014]

On an entirely separate issue: Galz, how did you quote me several pages ago with my name and time stamp on it? If I hit reply on this page I cannot find the post more than a page ago.

You can click the quote button in the top right of each post.

I know, but how do I hit that button for a post pages ago?

Also, would you like to come in and comment between me and Galzria?

The only way I know how to do it (there might be an easier way) is to right click the quote button and open it in a new tab, and then copy/paste the quote into the tab I have open where I'm writing the post.

Reading and gathering my thoughts. Post coming shortly.

[manda2014]

Okay so here are my thoughts on the Galz-timchen conflict.

I'm not "100% sure" like Galz, but I do think that timchen and Eevee are the scummiest players here. I've stated my case against Eevee several times. I still think that timchen holding back his argument for why Eevee is town is anti-town behavior and reads pretty scummy to me. If you don't want to state your case until you get more confirmation, that's one thing. But to say you have a case and then not share it doesn't help anyone.

With regards to timchen's argument that Galzira and Eevee were arguing too much to be a scumpair, this doesn't seem to hold a whole lot of water to me. It would be easy enough for them to agree to argue so as to not seem like a pair. The mafia obviously don't want to seem like a team. Eevee wasn't in too much danger of a lynch, so IF GALZ WAS SCUM, he could easily point out some things that make Eevee seem scummy without worrying about losing his scumbuddy. I'm not saying I think Galz is scum, just that the argument that Eevee can't be scum based on his interactions with Galz is faulty. 

[timchen]

@manda: Actually, it seems I cannot find your original case against eevee, except based on some sort of overall feeling... If you have something more specific, do you mind pointing it out where it is?

For my argument,  the point is that if it is according to plan (one scum stays behind a wagon while the other speaks highly against it) it seems a bit unlikely that one scum will just say it straight that the other is suspicious of being over-confident. The key is that the scums cannot know beforehand that a pair analysis would be available to determine a single person's innocence. If he is not careful enough he may be pushing his partner's wagon and if other townee buys it he would be then in a bad position to back off.

But sure, it is just an argument, not something definite. So I am fine if you don't buy it.

But here's something different. Galz is accusing me scum based on that he thought me "obviously" fakeclaimed then retracted then found a reason for it later. Don't you find that rather ridiculous?

First as I said, if I were scum, there is really no reason for me to fake claim at that point. Second, if I were scum and I indeed somehow decided to fakeclaim, it would then be horrible play to immediately retract that. Then I had to find something reasonable to say afterwards...  which I actually did. Really, how likely is this scenario?

[timchen]

One additional point to add about Galz: accusing me fabricating things up is really scummy as hell. It is just false to state that you didn't say anything about eevee before I posted that I have a secret argument. You can count posts, but if you were town you should remember what you've said what you thought about eevee and you should know what I was talking about. Two possibilities about your forgetfulness: it is either because you are scum so your cases against everyone else are fake so you don't really remember them or it is because you deliberately ignore those posts to frame me, which again says that you are scum.

[Young Nick]

On an entirely separate issue: Galz, how did you quote me several pages ago with my name and time stamp on it? If I hit reply on this page I cannot find the post more than a page ago.

You can click the quote button in the top right of each post.

I know, but how do I hit that button for a post pages ago?

Also, would you like to come in and comment between me and Galzria?

The only way I know how to do it (there might be an easier way) is to right click the quote button and open it in a new tab, and then copy/paste the quote into the tab I have open where I'm writing the post.

Reading and gathering my thoughts. Post coming shortly.

Too tired to write up a real post, but every post has the "Quote" button in its top right corner. This is slightly different than the "Insert Quote" button that is of the ~15 most recent posts. You do have to open in a new tab if you want to have multiple quotes from old pages in the same comment, though. I guess this is all obvious to you, probably, timchen. Too tired to tell.

[pingpongsam]

I've already claimed VT, which I assure you that scum already know having likely investigated me after my refusal to claim yesterday... ...Eevee and Timchen are your scum pair.

If Mafia had copped your role and discovered VT what is the likelihood that both Mafia would be driving a wagon on you D2? Wouldn't their effort be better served to hunt the possibly remaining PR?

I have to say that, while I am standing by my vote on manda, this degree of logical fallacy smells strongly of scum. My vote tenuously remains on manda because her play in response to the newly forming Galzria wagon is almost exactly as I would have expected from her. It's more of the non-committal, "I'm going with the flow so long as it is not me approach". If manda flips Town I'll have to accept that this is her play style which is pretty diametric to my own. In the meantime it has consistently led me to believe she is scum. I'm currently looking for a possible manda/Galz pair tell in the heap. That is, I think there may be some merit to the case on Galz but mainly because of his response to the wagon on him and not the basis for the wagon forming.

[timchen]

I've already claimed VT, which I assure you that scum already know having likely investigated me after my refusal to claim yesterday... ...Eevee and Timchen are your scum pair.

If Mafia had copped your role and discovered VT what is the likelihood that both Mafia would be driving a wagon on you D2? Wouldn't their effort be better served to hunt the possibly remaining PR?

Right on target.

Still, I do not want to experience the frisk-flip experience again-- I was so sure that he must be mafia in d1!
Maybe Galz was just busy or in a bad mood, and found his wagon at an inappropriate time. So Galz, if you were town, please for now put down your anger that we were all pointing at you with must-be-seemingly ridiculous reasons from your perspective.  Do you really stand behind your accusation that me and eevee are the scum pair? Even if so, can you please explain why a scum would have done what you described what I did?

[Galzria]

I've already claimed VT, which I assure you that scum already know having likely investigated me after my refusal to claim yesterday... ...Eevee and Timchen are your scum pair.

If Mafia had copped your role and discovered VT what is the likelihood that both Mafia would be driving a wagon on you D2? Wouldn't their effort be better served to hunt the possibly remaining PR?

Right on target.

Still, I do not want to experience the frisk-flip experience again-- I was so sure that he must be mafia in d1!
Maybe Galz was just busy or in a bad mood, and found his wagon at an inappropriate time. So Galz, if you were town, please for now put down your anger that we were all pointing at you with must-be-seemingly ridiculous reasons from your perspective.  Do you really stand behind your accusation that me and eevee are the scum pair? Even if so, can you please explain why a scum would have done what you described what I did?

Yes, and I have already.

[timchen]

Sharky where are you? I have seen u on other threads...

[shark_bait]

I've been catching up in other threads.  I'll start putting more effort into this one.

[shark_bait]

Why is all of that relevant you ask? Well, because I'm not convinced that there is scum voting for S_B right now. There have been a few reasoned arguments, including my own why he should live to see the night at the least. It would look rather scummy to ignore those, and continue to think S_B is scum. But I'm here to find and lynch Mafia, not scum.

So, I'm looking at Eevee, Robz, Captain_Frisk, and timchen.

Just found this gem from galz way back on page 10.  I find it interesting that 2 of those members are dead already. 

[Galzria]

Why is all of that relevant you ask? Well, because I'm not convinced that there is scum voting for S_B right now. There have been a few reasoned arguments, including my own why he should live to see the night at the least. It would look rather scummy to ignore those, and continue to think S_B is scum. But I'm here to find and lynch Mafia, not scum.

So, I'm looking at Eevee, Robz, Captain_Frisk, and timchen.

Just found this gem from galz way back on page 10.  I find it interesting that 2 of those members are dead already.

Yep. And look at the last two left.

[shark_bait]

Through page 13, PPS has the vibe of over-concerned townie to me.

[timchen]

Really depends on how you look at it doesn't it?:-P

[timchen]

Shark, may I suggest you reviewing what has happened in d2 first? There are pretty interesting things between me and galz. You can then review our earlier posts if you find it necessary.

Please ignore me if that's what you are doing. But if this is the case i am interested in hearing a quick words or two on what you see between me and Galz.

[shark_bait]

Sure thing.  I hadn't had a good chance to read over D1 knowing that Robz and CF were town so that's definitely on my list of things to do.  I'll pause that and shift over to D2.