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[rinkworks]

I'll be posting the ballot for Challenge #4 shortly, but now it's time to start the next two challenges!  My tentative plan now is to run week-long challenges every week and a half, which will slow down the pace of these things a little bit but not too much.

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Submission Rules

* Submit no more than one card per person per challenge.  You do not need to submit for all challenges if you don't want to, but of course you can't win if you don't compete.
* Submit your cards to me via this forum's messaging system.  Submissions made after each week's deadline cannot be accepted.
* Each card you submit must have a name, a cost, a list of types, and the exact wording that should appear on the card.  Also include a brief description of any special design considerations (e.g., Stash having a unique back), but do NOT include any other information, such as strategic commentary or examples about it would play.
* Although you must submit names for each of your cards, the names will not be listed on the voting ballots, so make sure your card's appeal does not depend on your choice of name.
* I will accept revisions to your contest entries provided they are submitted to me before the deadline.  If you submit a revision to an entry you have previously submitted to me, resubmit your revised card(s) in their entirety.  That is, don't tell me "Oh, can you make that +2 Cards say +3 Cards instead?"  Just resubmit the full card.
* Only submit cards that are your own design.
* You may submit cards that have been previously posted here in this forum, including those that have been refined by the community as a whole, provided you can still claim that the central conceit of the card -- and the majority of its final version -- is yours.  This applies to cards previously posted, however -- if your submissions aren't already posted on his board, please refrain from doing so until after the results have been announced.
* A single card might conceivably qualify for multiple challenges within this series.  However, you may not submit the same card for more than one challenge.
* Do not disclose your submissions publicly, either in this thread or elsewhere.

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The deadline for this week's challenges is Thursday, July 19, at 10am EDT.

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Challenge #5 - Deck Improver

Objective: Design a card that, after it is played, leaves the top of your deck in an improved or ordered state.  Such cards generally fall into one of a few different categories, although it is possible that a qualifying fan card might not fall into one of these specific categories:

(1) Cards that look at the top cards of your deck and sift them in some way (e.g., Cartographer, Scout).
(2) Cards that put cards on top of your deck (e.g., Courtyard, Pearl Diver, Bureaucrat).
(3) Cards that manage shuffles (e.g., Chancellor).

Unlike some challenges in this contest, the card does not need to FORCE the player to perform top-of-deck improvement, but it does need to provide the opportunity.

Official Examples: Bureaucrat, Spy, Courtyard, Scout, Pearl Diver, Lookout, Navigator, Treasure Map, Apothecary, Develop, Cartographer, Mandarin.  Chancellor (because it can shuffle your good cards into a junky draw pile).  Tournament (Prizes go on top and might not be immediately drawn).  Bag of Gold.  Trusty Steed (due to its Chancellor effect). 

Official Non-Examples: Smithy, because although you MIGHT draw three junky cards and dig down to your good ones, blind drawing does not improve the quality of your deck on average.  Secret Chamber, Watchtower, Royal Seal, Fool's Gold, Treasury, Walled Village, Alchemist, Herbalist, Stash, Scheme, Nomad Camp, and Inn, because although these all have deck-improving powers, they do not occur when you PLAY the card.  Farming Village, Jack of All Trades, Scrying Pool, and Oracle, because although they provide some top-of-deck sifting, they always (well, usually, in Jack's case) draw to or beyond it, leaving your deck an unknown.

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Challenge #6 - Trash For Benefit

Objective: Design a card that can trash one or more other cards (of your own) and give some sort of benefit that is different depending on what specific card(s) were trashed.   Such cards generally fall into one of a few different categories, although it is possible that a qualifying fan card might not fall into one of these specific categories:

(1) The "Remodel" family, which lets you exchange cards for different cards.  Official Examples:  Remodel, Expand, Upgrade, Remake, Develop, Forge, Farmland, Governor.
(2) Cards that offer other benefits based on the cost of the trashed card(s).  Official Examples:  Mine, Salvager, Bishop, Apprentice, Trader.
(3) Cards that offer benefits based on the type of the trashed card(s).  Official Examples:  Transmute.

Official Non-Examples: Moneylender, Spice Merchant, Trading Post, Trade Route, and Treasure Map, because although they require trashing to receive benefits, the benefits do not change based on what card(s) are trashed.  Chapel (and many others), because although it trashes cards, it doesn't offer any additional benefits, let alone ones tied to what the trashed cards are.  Mining Village, Feast, and Embargo, because they cannot trash other cards, only themselves.  Thief, Noble Brigand, Saboteur, and Swindler, because they don't trash your own cards, only other people's.

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Ballots

Challenge #5 Ballot
Challenge #6 Ballot

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Results

Challenge #5 Results
Challenge #6 Results

[Boldot]

Question for #6, is the effect mandatory?
For example, it trashes cards, but may not necessarily gain anything?
Is the trashing mandatory? Edit: Looks like this is a no, if governor is up there, you can pick other things besides the tfb.

[popsofctown]

Transmute doesn't give you anything when you trash a curse.

[rinkworks]

Question for #6, is the effect mandatory?
For example, it trashes cards, but may not necessarily gain anything?
Is the trashing mandatory? Edit: Looks like this is a no, if governor is up there, you can pick other things besides the tfb.

No to both questions.   I felt like being more flexible this time, I guess!

[A Drowned Kernel]

Does royal seal qualify for challenge 5? Also, I take from the fact that Chancellor is included to mean that "the top of the deck" can be extended to mean "the whole deck".

[popsofctown]

Technically, if use Chancellor, the top card of your deck is improved, because that card is a random selection of (estate, estate, estate, copper.... +card you just bought), when the top card could only be coppers and/or estates before.

[rinkworks]

Yeah, what pops said regarding Chancellor.  It took me a while to realize that that card qualifies, since it's so unlike all the rest.  But technically speaking, it allows you to improve your next hand by the same logic as Inn's on-gain effect does (though Inn is ineligible because it's an on-gain effect) -- by shuffling stuff in your discard pile into your draw pile and improving the whole pile, which includes the top.

Royal Seal wouldn't count, since the effect doesn't occur when you play it.  I'll add that to the list of exclusions.

[A Drowned Kernel]

That's what I figured. I just wanted to make sure.

[gman314]

Transmute doesn't give you anything when you trash a curse.

So, the bonus corresponding to the type curse is nothing. Every type does get a bonus, it just so happens that one of the bonuses is nothing. Similarly, Remake, Upgrade, Apprentice and Salvager give no bonus for curses (or coppers) (although I guess you could use Apprentice or Salvager on a Curse just for the Buy or action...)

[Tejayes]

Getting rid of a Curse is itself a bonus. Even Coppers and Estates have their uses from time to time. All Curse ever gives you is dead space and one less point. The only good Curse is the one in your opponent's deck.

[carstimon]

Getting rid of a Curse is itself a bonus. Even Coppers and Estates have their uses from time to time. All Curse ever gives you is dead space and one less point. The only good Curse is the one in your opponent's deck.

Ok, but curses have their uses from time to very slim time.  Gardens, fairgrounds, ambassador, masquerade, mountebank, fodder for strong trade routes when you have a small deck already.

I think if we want to be technical we want:
"The card has to give a benefit (besides trashing) at least sometimes."

[rinkworks]

Yeah, trashing a Curse may be inherently awesome, but that's not good enough for this particular challenge.  Qualifying cards have to do something more besides.  However, that said, qualifying cards don't have to provide a benefit for EVERY card that might conceivably trashed with it -- just like Transmute, Apprentice, Salvager, Bishop, and Trader happen to do nothing additional when it is a Curse that is trashed with them.

Note, by the way, that Apprentice's +1 Action, Salvager's +1 Buy, and Bishop's +$1 and first +VP are NOT sufficient to qualify them.  The reason is that you get these benefits no matter what card is trashed -- even, in fact, if you don't trash a card at all (because there are no cards left in your hand).

But as long as there's a difference in the benefits between some card X being trashed and some card Y being trashed, the trasher will qualify.

[Graystripe77]

I may be the only one, but I was thinking about a penalty for trying to rid your deck of curses, a trasher that only wants to trash treasures/victories instead.

[ChocophileBenj]

->Challenge 5 : This looks really wide-opened, just put a card back on your deck... now, you've to find the right idea
->Challenge 6 : I was waiting for a TFB challenge that would give benefit directly depending of the trashed card(s), but... doesn't have an idea yet in mind.

I love those challenges, I hope it'll continue

[Davio]

Okay, I'm in.

As I have organized a design contest myself (with Rinkworks as the winner getting his card "Archivist" on Iso for a few weeks/months if I recall correctly), I thought it would be fair to enter this one.

I have spent a good 10 minutes on both cards, so I hope people will like them.

These challenges are interesting, because they demonstrate how huge the design space actually is. And we have to try to let go of the cards that have been published so far and not make poor copies of them, which is mighty difficult! Heck, we could have a card like:

Blind Man's Bluff $4
Action

Take the top card of your deck, lick the back of it and put it on your forehead so that other players can see what it is.
You may ask the other players what it is and try to guess what it is.
If you guess correctly, you may put it in play immediately. Otherwise, put it back, but dry it first.

Good luck implementing THAT on Iso/Funsockets! 

Note: This is not a card I submitted.

[zahlman]

Made sure I actually submitted this time

[One Armed Man]

I have spent a good 10 minutes on both cards, so I hope people will like them.

10 minutes each? I agonize over the designs and it took me over an hour to decide between different versions of the same effect. Needless to say, I submitted here.

[Davio]

I have spent a good 10 minutes on both cards, so I hope people will like them.

10 minutes each? I agonize over the designs and it took me over an hour to decide between different versions of the same effect. Needless to say, I submitted here.

10 minutes for both, so about 5 mins for each. I tend to not spend too many time on cards. Either something is a good idea or it isn't. Sometimes I just like launching ideas and seeing what the results are.

[zahlman]

10 minutes for both, so about 5 mins for each. I tend to not spend too many time on cards. Either something is a good idea or it isn't. Sometimes I just like launching ideas and seeing what the results are.

Pretty much my approach, too. Although sometimes I'll spend a few minutes thinking about it, then put it aside and come back to it later for a few more minutes.

[Kirian]

Good luck implementing THAT on Iso/Funsockets! 

Actually, all the functionality should be there.  Contraband and Envoy allow you to pick a card for your opponent, and Wishing Well allows you to pick a card for yourself.  The only strange part would be the "reveal to only other players" part, but that's just "reveal" AND NOT "look at" so probably not too terrible.

[popsofctown]

How do you dry it, though?

[Kirian]

OK, for once, I'm in.  Not sure I'll have the time to go over entries and vote though...

[Dubdubdubdub]

I've been testing some of the winners of previous contests and would like to get a discussion going at a centralized place. The current contest threads discuss all the ideas at a somewhat theoretical level, while also talking about fairness, voting systems, rules questions about the contest, etc. I'm sure people are going to actually start testing, too, right?

I think it would be a good idea to get a thread going, called 'Mini-Set Design Contest, Playground!' or something. Or - better yet - a sub forum with a thread for every card (if the admins are ok with that).

Is this overkill? Would you rather just continue the discussion in the current contest-threads? Besides, I would like to know how definitive the winning cards are. On one hand, we don't want to mess with the card that got the votes - it's what the community wanted. On the other, testing is really important and some cards may need some work. What's the game plan?

For now, I'll just post in the contest-threads. I can always move my comments around.

[popsofctown]

I am ok with testing superseding the votes, but only if there is no way to rework the card people elected to make that card work.  Soothsayer could possibly fall into that category if there really is no way to make people take the curses with any frequency.

[Grujah]

This time I think I'll do better than last 2.