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[gman314]

Well, I also eliminated book turn-ins that increased in value. In my version, you just get between 4-12 troops, depending upon what your cards are, no matter how many books were previously turned in. Which means no one can ever win by themselves!

And that's the reason why the turn-ins increase in value. You stop stalemates and encourage aggressive play by putting more and more troops on the board in imbalanced proportions. It's the same reason why TV poker has the blinds increase over the course of the game.

[HiveMindEmulator]

The other thing you have to consider is that the prices are meant to make the card reasonable when drawn in a random kingdom. If you guarantee Masquerade is in the Kingdom, Witch at $6 might be a bit weak, since you're passing up a Gold to have the opportunity to (relatively later into the game than you would with a $5 Witch) give Curses that might come right back to you. But when Masquerade is not there, the story changes. Also, when Witch is around at $5, something like Lab or Mine looks weak for $5, but when Witch is not there and something like Chapel is, then they look a lot more attractive.

tl;dr: instead of optimizing prices for specific kingdoms/combos, just play random kingdoms.

[pingpongsam]

[Powerman]

Mine would be sooo good at 4 though.  Open Mine/Silver.  Draw them together as MSCCC... Hello 2 golds on turn 3!

Thanks Powerman. How likely is that though? Any more likely than getting gold from treasure maps on turn 4?

The odds of two treasure maps colliding on turn 4 are essentially zero, since you can only buy one before the first reshuffle.

Unless you open Talisman/Watchtower, and have a turn 3 hand of TWCCC.  But that's already a 3 card combo.

[Titandrake]

Adventurer is useful in a Chapel-BM deck to ensure your deck doesn't sputter while greening. I think.

It has to cost $6 though. It doesn't take much Silver/Gold to get $3 fairly consistently, and terminal +$3 is a strong $5 if I remember correctly. At least Harvest encourages you buy variety (e.g. actions, not just Silver/Gold).

[michaeljb]

On the topic of the Turn 4 Treasure Map hit...

T1/T2 - open Chancellor/Treasure Map
T3 - play Chancellor(flip it) + 2 Copper, buy Treasure Map
T4 - Treasure Maps activated, better defend yourself somehow if playing IRL

[Kahryl]

Topic with a bunch of price/rules tweaks:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1651.0

[Dr Who]

Topic with a bunch of price/rules tweaks:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1651.0

Thanks that's helpful! And thanks everyone for your advice.
On a related note, could someone explin please why lab costs $5 and not $4? It's just you can build the beginnings of an engine with a smithy and village (giving one spare action and 4 more cards). Or you can do it with two labs (giving one spare action and 4 more cards). Why should it be so much harder to build the engine out of labs than smithies and villages? I understand you can get smithies and villages in the wrong order (though it's surely very unlikely in high density decks) but does that really justify making the lab chain so much harder to acrue? Especially when you can get good attack cards (toruruer) that work really well and can be used multiple times in the smithy / village engine.

[Dr Who]

Mine would be sooo good at 4 though.  Open Mine/Silver.  Draw them together as MSCCC... Hello 2 golds on turn 3!

I just realised how to work out the probability of this - I tried two different methods and got the same answer both times: only 4%!! I wouldn't bank on that happening. Is this possibility enough to argue against it costing $4? (of course, as another commentator pointed out, it would mean decreasing the costs of lots of other things, but that's all easy to do).

[Robz888]

Topic with a bunch of price/rules tweaks:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1651.0

Thanks that's helpful! And thanks everyone for your advice.
On a related note, could someone explin please why lab costs $5 and not $4? It's just you can build the beginnings of an engine with a smithy and village (giving one spare action and 4 more cards). Or you can do it with two labs (giving one spare action and 4 more cards). Why should it be so much harder to build the engine out of labs than smithies and villages? I understand you can get smithies and villages in the wrong order (though it's surely very unlikely in high density decks) but does that really justify making the lab chain so much harder to acrue? Especially when you can get good attack cards (toruruer) that work really well in the smithy / village engine.

Lab isn't very good for a draw engine. Well, it's helpful, but it's no centerpiece. Essentially, Lab works best when you have some important terminals in your deck that you want to chase down quickly.

Really, lab isn't the most important $5 card. But it would be way, way, way too powerful at $4.

[Dr Who]

Thanks Robz - why do you say it would be way, way too powerful when compared with smithy/village or torturer/village? Or is it just that it would be too powerful in games where those combos weren't possible?

[DStu]

Topic with a bunch of price/rules tweaks:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1651.0

Thanks that's helpful! And thanks everyone for your advice.
On a related note, could someone explin please why lab costs $5 and not $4? It's just you can build the beginnings of an engine with a smithy and village (giving one spare action and 4 more cards). Or you can do it with two labs (giving one spare action and 4 more cards). Why should it be so much harder to build the engine out of labs than smithies and villages? I understand you can get smithies and villages in the wrong order (though it's surely very unlikely in high density decks) but does that really justify making the lab chain so much harder to acrue? Especially when you can get good attack cards (toruruer) that work really well in the smithy / village engine.

Caravan (from Seaside, which is a significantly weaker Lab) costs $4, and is often raced for. Lab for $4 would not be a good idea.

[theory]

Allow me to throw a tantalizing wrench into the discussion:

I think there's only one card in the main set for $5 that you can argue should cost $4. The others are clearly $5's, they would be $5's today, no question. That other card, I would have to test it, it might just be stuck being a weaker $5, or it might be okay at $4.

[DStu]

@theory but noway this is Lab.
Edit: Can only be Mine.

[theory]

Obviously not.  But why not make the discussion interesting?

I think the answer as to which $5 could cost $4, by the way, should be clear.  Duchy

[LastFootnote]

Obviously not.  But why not make the discussion interesting?

I think the answer as to which $5 could cost $4, by the way, should be clear.  Duchy

Whoa, interesting thought. What's your logic behind this?

[theory]

Only kidding

[Robz888]

Thanks Robz - why do you say it would be way, way too powerful when compared with smithy/village or torturer/village? Or is it just that it would be too powerful in games where those combos weren't possible?

A $4 Lab is basically its own Smithy/Village. You draw fewer cards overall, but the fear of not drawing the Village first and then the Smithy is totally nullified. That's the problem with draw engines--you have to have more Villages than draw cards, so that you get the Villages in hand first, before you play Smithy. And often times, this just takes too long. I am assuming you know this, but maybe you don't: 1-2 Smithies with no Villages is usually a better strategy in the Base game than Smithies and Villages. The more expansions and other cards you add in, however, the more factors you add in Smithy/Village's favor, +buys, Attacks, VP chips, etc. But just Smithy and money is a baseline strategy that can beat your weaker, slower Smithy/Village chains, particularly in the Base game.


And about the price changes: The thing is, most cards can't have their price changed, period. We can debate a $5 Adventurer, I suppose, and hey, Courtyard at $3 doesn't change anything, really. But most cards are balanced only at their given price level.

[DStu]

and hey, Courtyard at $3 doesn't change anything, really. But most cards are balanced only at their given price level.

I actually like Courtyard at $2. on first (or second) sight, it's obviously too cheap, but the game does not nearly become degenerate.

[Kahryl]

Village + Smithy is the same as Lab + Lab (playing each pair gets you to 7 cards and 1 action point), except they have to be paired with each other to be that strong. So Village and Smithy is strictly worse than all labs and have to be less expensive.

[Dr Who]

I am assuming you know this, but maybe you don't: 1-2 Smithies with no Villages is usually a better strategy in the Base game than Smithies and Villages.

No I didn't know that - thanks for pointing it out. But if smithy/village is too slow, surely lab chains are even slower (since it's quite a bit harder to get $5)? So wouldn't a couple of smithies be better than labs? And if that is so, why make labs cost $5?
Please understand, I'm not saying the prices are wrong, I'm just asking the questions since I knew you would all know more about this than me.

[rinkworks]

I am assuming you know this, but maybe you don't: 1-2 Smithies with no Villages is usually a better strategy in the Base game than Smithies and Villages.

No I didn't know that - thanks for pointing it out. But if smithy/village is too slow, surely lab chains are even slower (since it's quite a bit harder to get $5)? So wouldn't a couple of smithies be better than labs? And if that is so, why make labs cost $5?
Please understand, I'm not saying the prices are wrong, I'm just asking the questions since I knew you would all know more about this than me.

Two (related) reasons why Lab chains are better:

(1) One Lab by itself in your hand has a better chance of drawing the next engine component than either Village (which draws half as many cards) or Smithy (which will draw engine components dead).

(2) One Lab by itself adds value to your hand, even if you don't draw any other engine component.  A Village by itself just replaces itself in your hand and provides no actual value.  A Smithy by itself is better, but if it draws other Villages or Smithies dead, it's actually worse than not having played it at all -- because not only didn't you get anything good out of playing the Smithy, but you skipped over the engine components you would have gotten next turn.

If you manage to fire either engine, you're probably fine, as you'll draw a lot of your deck and thus presumably have money to spend.   But you rarely if ever want to pursue a "pure" strategy of one or the other.   They'd usually be components of something more complex.   At the very least, a Lab chain should have a key terminal in there that you can end the chain on.  That could be any number of things.  To pick a random example out of a hat, say you've got one Militia in your Lab deck.  Having it at the end of a Lab chain means you'd get to play that Militia almost every turn, thereby hopefully shutting down your opponent.  You could play a Militia every turn by buying out the Militia pile too, but a deck full of Militias won't buy Provinces, because instead of drawing all the Treasure in your deck (as a Lab chain would), your hand is clogged up with a bunch of Militias, only one of which you can play.

As was mentioned, "pure" Village/Smithy engines are actually outperformed by a simple money deck with 1-2 Smithies thrown in.  Still, the principle of constructing a Village/Smithy engine is important to know, because if you are (1) able to swap the components out for stronger variations, e.g., Torturer instead of Smithy; or (2) able to integrate other strong action cards into the mix, you can build some pretty brutal machines.

And you can blend two kinds of engines together, too.   For example, Villages can be added seamlessly into a Lab chain if you'd like to use said Lab chain to spam multiple terminals every turn.  Additionally, adding a couple Labs to a Minion chain (caution: don't do this until the Minion pile is depleted) may mean that you are able to play a higher percentage of your Minions for money rather than for cycling.

I do see where you're coming from.  When I first started playing Dominion, Laboratory's $5 price tag was truly perplexing.  And as I didn't yet realize just how solidly and carefully the game was designed, I didn't trust that the price was correct.  But once I started using it and getting a feel for how it plays, I realized why it's a $5 card.  Frankly, since all you've got so far are Base and Intrigue, it's actually one of the strongest non-attack $5 cards, weirdly enough.  Some of the later expansions have stronger alternatives to Laboratory, as well as additional strategies that obviate the need for them.   But even now there are still a lot of kingdoms where Lab is amazing.

But...

So wouldn't a couple of smithies be better than labs?

If all you're doing is buying money plus either a couple of Smithies or a couple of Labs, then you're right, absolutely a couple of Smithies is better.  It all depends on what you're doing, though.  If you have a Witch in your hand, Smithies don't help you play it more often.

[Dr Who]

Thanks Rinkworks that's so helpful! 
Could I possibly ask the same question about libraries please?

[eHalcyon]

Also keep in mind that Lab is a single card while Village+Smithy consists of two.  You just need one buy to pick up a lab, but two to get Village+Smithy.  Labs are not actually more difficult to get -- although you can't open with $5, you can usually get it after the first reshuffle.  And on the turns that your opening is picking up village, you could be improving the value of your deck with Silver.



Libraries are very strong draw cards because of the "set aside" mechanic.  Starting from a hand of 5 cards, Library is essentially equivalent to Smithy in that it will draw you 3 cards.  However, Library is special in that you can set aside action cards that would otherwise have been drawn dead.  This means that your deck can handle more terminals with Library than with Smithy.  If you want to make an action chain with villages, however, Library can be less effective because it will never draw above 7 cards in hand.  It can be more useful if the "up to 7" draw does better than 3 cards, e.g. when you only have a disappearing village, or other cards that reduce your hand size.

[DStu]

Could I possibly ask the same question about libraries please?

Library is different. And more difficult.

From a 5 card hand it's a Smithy that doesn't draw actions dead. So in a money-focussed deck with say 2 Libraries, you mitigate the risk of drawing the one dead with the other.
In an engine, it's more difficult, as you are capped at 7 cards, and a standard engine wants to get more. You can mitigate this by not relying on treasures (which stay in your hand), but get your money from actions. But that requiers either a Village that gives you money, or many Villages for playing terminals that give money. And trashing or at least a Cellar or so. Best partner would be Festival, which gives actions, money, and that it does not give cards is mitigated by the Library. But they are both $5, so that is quite expensive. So it's not that easy to build an engine with it, and I would not recommend starting building engines with Library until you are more experienced with "usual" engines.

Cellar/Library alone is not that bad. Cellar costs you a card in hand, but the Lib redraws it, and you can dump your bad cards in the Cellar to find the better one. And the Lib can't draw the Cellar dead.