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Author Topic: The Best Designed Card  (Read 17728 times)

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Kahryl

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2012, 09:22:59 am »
+1

So the question is which card is the best at ALL three of those? I'm going to put my money on Young Witch. Really stark, moody art, mechanics that are a real puzzler on a lot of boards, and a sort of randomly-generated story behind her based on the bane.
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rinkworks

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2012, 09:53:07 am »
+1

So the question is which card is the best at ALL three of those? I'm going to put my money on Young Witch. Really stark, moody art, mechanics that are a real puzzler on a lot of boards, and a sort of randomly-generated story behind her based on the bane.

Enthusiastic agreement on all counts.  +1 for Young Witch.
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Autumn

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2012, 12:38:41 pm »
0

Wow. I consider two of these cards (IGG and Masquerade) terribly dull and dominant in 50% of the games they show up in, and would consider them cards I *dislike*.

Yeah, +1 to this comment! I'm very surprised to see that much love for IGG. In game terms, I consider it the epitome of a card whose rules design has made the game less fun. IGG-rush is a low skill strategy, yet its almost always dominant when IGG is present.

For my own part, I'll add +1 vote for another unpopular card, but one which I like a lot:

Possession!

Great art, thematically feels like what it represents (you are taking control of them as if they were your puppet, mwahahaha!). Rules wise its surprisingly satisfying, in that its not an auto-grab if its present, but its presence always affects how you strategise for a given kingdom.

I adore Possession - it's in my ten favourite cards, because of how much having it in the kingdom completely redefines the game - but it's horribly designed in at least one major respect: it's only fair in 2-player. I refuse to use it in 3+ player games because it emphasises turn order to a ludicrously high extent in a way that no other card, not even something like Tribute or Masquerade, really does.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2012, 12:45:03 pm »
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Since apparently I have more than one +1 to give, I'll give it to Bishop.  I think Watchtower still has my vote, but Bishop is oh so close: VP chips are great, it's a good card but not always the right move, it can create a whole new type of game (the Golden Deck), non-attack player interaction is always good to have, etc. etc. etc.  Also has some of the best art too.
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Galzria

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2012, 12:49:24 pm »
0

Wow. I consider two of these cards (IGG and Masquerade) terribly dull and dominant in 50% of the games they show up in, and would consider them cards I *dislike*.

Masquerade is one of my favorite cards (although I'm not a big fan of IGG) - Still, this isn't a poll about how I feel about a card being in a kingdom. Strength or warping doesn't really factor in too much. I think the artwork on Masquerade is simple, but elegant. It's mechanic isn't too difficult to understand, and when I think Masquerade, I think ballroom dancing and passing your partner from person to person - Which matches the flavor and feel of the card quite well. Thus I feel it it's place is quite deserved on *this list*.

Now, if we're talking most balanced, or strongest, or most annoying, or game warping, or whatever, that's entirely different.
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Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

gman314

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2012, 12:51:13 pm »
0

I adore Possession - it's in my ten favourite cards, because of how much having it in the kingdom completely redefines the game - but it's horribly designed in at least one major respect: it's only fair in 2-player. I refuse to use it in 3+ player games because it emphasises turn order to a ludicrously high extent in a way that no other card, not even something like Tribute or Masquerade, really does.

I would actually argue that Possession is more fair in a 3 or 4 player game than in a two player game. In a 2 player game, whoever gets Possession first has the chance to possess the other player's possession buying turn or even their possession playing turn. So, first possession is a significant advantage.

In a three player game, if I buy the first Possession, I'll be slowing the player to my left from getting a possession and playing it. But, I'm doing nothing about the player to my left. He can then possess me and help the player to my left by stopping me from possessing him. That way, once the player to my left gets a possession thanks to the player from my right, things are balanced out.

In a four player game, some of the imbalance returns. If the two players across from each other get the first two possessions, then the other pair each has a disadvantage because they're getting possessed but can't possess. But, the imbalance is less than in two player because by playing possession, you aren't making it harder for yourself to get possessed. That only comes up in two player.
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Galzria

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2012, 12:54:47 pm »
0

I adore Possession - it's in my ten favourite cards, because of how much having it in the kingdom completely redefines the game - but it's horribly designed in at least one major respect: it's only fair in 2-player. I refuse to use it in 3+ player games because it emphasises turn order to a ludicrously high extent in a way that no other card, not even something like Tribute or Masquerade, really does.

I would actually argue that Possession is more fair in a 3 or 4 player game than in a two player game. In a 2 player game, whoever gets Possession first has the chance to possess the other player's possession buying turn or even their possession playing turn. So, first possession is a significant advantage.

In a three player game, if I buy the first Possession, I'll be slowing the player to my left from getting a possession and playing it. But, I'm doing nothing about the player to my left. He can then possess me and help the player to my left by stopping me from possessing him. That way, once the player to my left gets a possession thanks to the player from my right, things are balanced out.

In a four player game, some of the imbalance returns. If the two players across from each other get the first two possessions, then the other pair each has a disadvantage because they're getting possessed but can't possess. But, the imbalance is less than in two player because by playing possession, you aren't making it harder for yourself to get possessed. That only comes up in two player.

Possession In Front Of Me argument? PIFOM.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

werothegreat

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2012, 01:36:08 pm »
0

No Pirate Ship love?  D:
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shark_bait

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2012, 01:46:20 pm »
0

I can't believe that this one hasn't been mentioned yet.

I nominate Inn

My reasoning is as follows.  First off, the artwork is superb.  A beautiful countryside scene with an inn.  It almost feels like this should be a large canvas piece of artwork rather than a small picture on a card.  Next off are the mechanics and name.  Inn is a Village type card in that it gives +2 actions.  I ask you, where do you find inns?  You normally find them in a village making it very fitting that this village variant would be present in a village.  Next consider the set as a whole.  Hinterlands theme is on gain effects.  Inn does an extraordinary job at incorporating this theme into it with the on gain clause.  This card is certainly not worth $5 without the on gain benefit.  In fact, the on gain benefit is what makes this card a very strategic pick up.

Edit:  See below for a small depiction of the artwork.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 05:23:04 pm by shark_bait »
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2012, 02:01:53 pm »
0

I can't believe that this one hasn't been mentioned yet.

I nominate Inn

My reasoning is as follows.  First off, the artwork is superb.  A beautiful countryside scene with an inn.  It almost feels like this should be a large canvas piece of artwork rather than a small picture on a card.

I won't disagree !  ;D
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AJD

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2012, 05:22:11 pm »
0

I can't believe that this one hasn't been mentioned yet.

I nominate Inn

My reasoning is as follows.  First off, the artwork is superb.  A beautiful countryside scene with an inn.  It almost feels like this should be a large canvas piece of artwork rather than a small picture on a card.  Next off are the mechanics and name.  Inn is a Village type card in that it gives +2 actions.  I ask you, where do you find inns?  You normally find them in a village making it very fitting that this village variant would be present in a village.  Next consider the set as a whole.  Hinterlands theme is on gain effects.  Inn does an extraordinary job at incorporating this theme into it with the on gain clause.  This card is certainly not worth $5 without the on gain benefit.  In fact, the on gain benefit is what makes this card a very strategic pick up.

It's also worth noting this is another good case of synergy between on-buy and on-play effects. The on-buy effect is likely to lead to a bunch of action cards clustered together in your deck; the on-play effect gives you the +actions you need to play all those cards.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2012, 06:06:11 pm »
0

I can't buy that Masquerade is on the list. Yeah the idea of passing cards is cool, and like a masquerade, but how can the best designed card be one with such a major design flaw: that it leads to KC-Masq deck destruction pins?
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Galzria

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2012, 06:12:53 pm »
0

I can't buy that Masquerade is on the list. Yeah the idea of passing cards is cool, and like a masquerade, but how can the best designed card be one with such a major design flaw: that it leads to KC-Masq deck destruction pins?

I think King's Court is far more to blame in that case, as it causes the destruction of many, many boards.

But more importantly for me, Masquerade ranks high in Artwork, Thematic Feel, and Expansion Fit, as well as being relatively simple (compare to Cities). And for me at least (although I admit there is plenty of debate here) the mechanic IS very enjoyable; even if at times it's broken.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

WheresMyElephant

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2012, 12:38:17 am »
+1

It's also worth noting this is another good case of synergy between on-buy and on-play effects. The on-buy effect is likely to lead to a bunch of action cards clustered together in your deck; the on-play effect gives you the +actions you need to play all those cards.

Not to mention the mini-Warehouse effect is uniquely well suited to Inn. This is something I never see people talk about, but it's brilliantly done.

Of course handsize reduction weakens Inn megaturns and keep them from getting totally broken when you stack the deck. But when you HAVEN'T stacked the deck, you might have the problem that your density of important actions is a little low. Isn't that why you're relying heavily on Inn to draw your hot combo? So hey, here's some sifting to help you out. And you'll hardly even miss that fifth card, because you're playing a combo deck and you don't care about anything except playing a double Goons or whatever. (If you are playing a +Cards/+Actions engine you'll probably miss the extra card, but if your engine is going off even without stacking the deck then you don't need the help.) It'll even help you cycle your deck faster, so you can fill up your discard pile with good stuff and buy another Inn that much sooner. All these things together give a complicated card like Inn a very clear and coherent strategic use, and a very distinct one at that (compared to other Villages it's much better for setting up non-card-draw combos without the need to draw your deck, though it can sometimes do that too.) And to top it off, variance is also reduced by slightly strengthening the off turns and weakening the megaturns while also making them more frequent, so that game outcome depends a bit less on that timing.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 01:10:48 am by WheresMyElephant »
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Davio

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2012, 03:21:23 am »
0

Updated nomination count:

Hop 4
City 2
Island 2
Embargo 1
Masq 3
Golem 1
Silver 1
Tact 3
Village 2
Noble Brigand 1
Menagerie 2
Swindler 1
Watchtower 3
Lighthouse 1
Jack 1
Great Hall 1
IGG 3
Peddler 1
Chapel 2
Haggler 1
Pirate Ship 1
Bishop 2
Apo 1
Poss 1
YW 2
Inn 1

Also, please make clear if you're nominating a card, it's sometimes hard to tell if someone is just proposing or defending a card or actually nominating it.
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AJD

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Re: The Best Designed Card
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2012, 11:11:10 am »
+1

I can't buy that Masquerade is on the list. Yeah the idea of passing cards is cool, and like a masquerade, but how can the best designed card be one with such a major design flaw: that it leads to KC-Masq deck destruction pins?

I think Masquerade loses some points on clarity because everyone always seems to spend a while confused over how receiving a card with Masquerade doesn't count as gaining it.
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