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[ChocophileBenj]

-Cavern-
Action, cost $2 (?)
Discard any number of cards ; gain a card costing up to $1 plus $1 per discarded card.
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You know the difference between woodcutter/workshop, and between salvager/remodel, now, this card is the sister of secret chamber !
I think it would be inferior to s.chamber without the "$1 plus ..." (only cost reducers and lack of +buy would make it superior)., but too strong with "$2 plus..." instead of $1 as it would give you early $6, while this gives you "only" $5 (except maybe if the price is raised to $3)

The idea behind was first a kind of "underground village" (so +1 card +2 actions) with another benefit, which would be gaining a card, but not like university did... then I thought this final version might be strong enough...

Thoughts ?

[Captain_Frisk]

At $2, this card would be too powerful.  Barring discard attacks, this card could just as well read: "Discard your hand, gain a card worth $5".  I'd buy that @ $2 every day, possibly twice on Sundays.

[Asklepios]

At $2, this card would be too powerful.  Barring discard attacks, this card could just as well read: "Discard your hand, gain a card worth $5".  I'd buy that @ $2 every day, possibly twice on Sundays.

Secret Chamber plus two or more silver or better treasures will get $6. This card will still get you $5. Generally though Secret Chamber isn't going to get more than $4 early game.

OTOH, Horse Traders gets you $5 generally, but can give you less with bad luck, or more later on.

So I'd say its comparable to Horse Traders, though it'd need an extra effect to keep up. I'd say make it cost $4 and give it a bonus effect, or cost $3 and leave it as it is. The former sounds better to me.

As its a Cavern, how about a very weak Tunnel-lite style reaction effect? Such as, if you discard this card from your hand outside of cleanup, draw a card? Is that too self stacky?

[Schlippy]

But the "gain" of Secret Chamber still requires a buy. There is a reason that there is no gain card at $2.
It is also incredibly strong in a draw engine, possibly netting you an additional Duchy or Province for all those VP-cards and Copper you don't need anyways.

[rinkworks]

At $2, this card would be too powerful.  Barring discard attacks, this card could just as well read: "Discard your hand, gain a card worth $5".  I'd buy that @ $2 every day, possibly twice on Sundays.

Secret Chamber plus two or more silver or better treasures will get $6. This card will still get you $5. Generally though Secret Chamber isn't going to get more than $4 early game.

Requiring two or more Silver or better treasures for Secret Chamber to improve upon this is HUGE.  Not only do you have to have those treasures, you have to collide them, too.  Late game, sure, it happens -- but late game, you're not going to be using Secret Chamber OR this card very much, because you'll almost certainly be able to do better than $1 per card.  Unless you're clogged with green, in which case this is a guaranteed Duchy, while Secret Chamber is back to being inferior.

OTOH, Horse Traders gets you $5 generally, but can give you less with bad luck, or more later on.

So I'd say its comparable to Horse Traders, though it'd need an extra effect to keep up. I'd say make it cost $4 and give it a bonus effect, or cost $3 and leave it as it is. The former sounds better to me.

I'd say $4 is the minimum cost here, just because opening with two of these -- guaranteed 5's every time one comes up -- would be nigh unstoppable on many boards.  At $4, though, it probably compares well with Feast (one-shot, but you don't sacrifice the rest of your hand) and Horse Traders (not a guaranteed $5, but provides a reaction effect on attack boards, and +Buy is slightly better than a separate gain).

I don't think you need a bonus effect at $4.  This is going to be better than Horse Traders at any kind of $5 race in the absence of strong attacks (Duchy/Duke and IGG/Duchy races, for example), because it's a guarantee.  And you can still buy Coppers with your card, so not even the +Buy of Horse Traders is an advantage in these cases.

Additionally, it's a lot better than Horse Traders if you can increase your hand-size at all.  In a Tactician hand, you get a Province (at least) every time.

[Archetype]

Even if this cost 3, I would almost always open Cavern/Cavern to bump me up to 5 quickly.

Maybe try this..

Cavern
Cost: 2
Discard any number of non-treasure cards from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $1 plus $1 per discarded card.

This might make it a little too weak though.

On second thought, I agree with rinkworks. The original should be fine if it costs 4. Because it does compare to Horse Traders, but lacks the reaction.

[Titandrake]

I'm not quite convinced this should cost $4.

Yes, early on if it costs $3 then a Cavern/Cavern opening will rush a $5 pile very quickly. But as the game goes on, its usefulness drops off much faster than Horse Traders. If the other 4 cards in hand are $5 or more, it's useless. In comparison, Horse Traders can still discard 2 Coppers (and even a Copper + Silver) for at least some benefit. Additionally, Horse Traders money is a lot more flexible than the gain effect.

In an engine, I think Horse Traders would be perform slightly better or the same as Cavern in the building phase. They break even at 2 dead cards in hand, and Horse Traders +$ is better than the gaining. Later on, Cavern would get better.

I think it would be a very strong $3, but a fairly weak $4 that wouldn't feel fun on a visceral level unless it was played in an engine. Up to you...

[Asklepios]

I'm not quite convinced this should cost $4.

Yes, early on if it costs $3 then a Cavern/Cavern opening will rush a $5 pile very quickly. But as the game goes on, its usefulness drops off much faster than Horse Traders. If the other 4 cards in hand are $5 or more, it's useless. In comparison, Horse Traders can still discard 2 Coppers (and even a Copper + Silver) for at least some benefit. Additionally, Horse Traders money is a lot more flexible than the gain effect.

In an engine, I think Horse Traders would be perform slightly better or the same as Cavern in the building phase. They break even at 2 dead cards in hand, and Horse Traders +$ is better than the gaining. Later on, Cavern would get better.

I think it would be a very strong $3, but a fairly weak $4 that wouldn't feel fun on a visceral level unless it was played in an engine. Up to you...

I'd say that $4 plus a weak bonus effect would put it on a par with Horse Traders. I agree that Horse Traders overtakes it quickly, but Cavern would be more reliable on that critical first reshuffle, and that relaibility means a great deal in decks with a strong $5. Plus don't forget that with the big discard it is stronger than Horse Traders with cards that interact well with discard-for-effect, such as Menagerie, Library, Watchtower, Tactician. With its gain-on-action effect it'd be a boon to complex engine decks of this sort, especially if comboed with stuff like fishing village and watchtower.

All in all, a better comparison might be to Vault, as essentially Cavern looks like a worse version of Vault, in that you don't get to draw and your big treasures end up being used separate to the effect. On the other hand, this might be a boon in those odd circumstances when you'd rather have a medium gain and medium buy rather than a big buy... which is generally much true for engine building rather than VP acquisition, but could be useful in something like a Gardens deck (say discard 3 cards, gain a Gardens, spend remaining silver on an estate).

$4 is the right place for it, I think. Its not as good as Horse Traders at doing what Horse Trader does, and its not as good as Vault, but it has elements of both. As I said though, a weak bonus effect would be desirable, such as a reaction/effect that gives you+1 card if you discard it outside of your cleanup phase.

[rinkworks]

I'm not quite convinced this should cost $4.

Yes, early on if it costs $3 then a Cavern/Cavern opening will rush a $5 pile very quickly. But as the game goes on, its usefulness drops off much faster than Horse Traders.

I don't think it matters how quickly it gets weak if it's a superstar early.  If Cavern/Cavern is so good early on that it's the dominant opening a majority of the time (and I suspect it would be) then it's broken, because it closes the space of viable strategic decisions you can make, rather than broadening it.

Also compare with other cards that are powerful in the opening and drop off sharply afterwards:  Trading Post is such a strong ability that it has to cost $5, but it's really only great if you buy it on the first shuffle.  It's okay on the second and terrible afterwards.   Despite the fact that it's only a superstar in the first few turns, it costs $5, not $3.

Remake is maybe a better example, because it's in the $4 tier.  Late game, actually wanting two Remakes in your deck would be a niche situation, and lots of times you'd rather not even have the one anymore.   But a double Remake opening would be crazy strong, transforming your deck into Silvers (remade Estates) + $5 card (remade Remake) so quickly that most other strategies probably couldn't keep up.  By contrast, double Chapel is okay because two early Chapels is rarely an improvement over one.

Anyway, I'm not really so sure Cavern wouldn't still be a strong card in the late game.  When you're choked with green, you can still rush Duchies more reliably than with any other card, because not only is it guaranteed to hit, its mechanics make it resilient to the influx of those Duchies.  Compare with other Duchy rushers:  IGG isn't a guaranteed hit, and sometimes you have to add Copper to your deck as well, thereby spacing out the IGGs.  Horse Traders needs additional Treasure.   Secret Chamber needs additional Treasure.  Vault provides a benefit to opponents.  Additionally, note that certain other cards would be great Duchy rushers except that they don't work on Victory cards, presumably specifically for that very reason:  University, Horn of Plenty, etc.