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[rrenaud]

I haven't done all that much testing on this, but I think it's better idea to use early Remakes to trash coppers rather than turn estates into 3 cost cards.  After your deck is small and mostly money-less, you can turn the estates into silvers and draw them quickly to bootstrap yourself out of the $3 to $4 average money phase quickly, almost chapel style.

I guess this shouldn't be surprising, it follows the conventional Dominion wisdom that you should trash aggressively early in the game.

[shark_bait]

If you're going to remake them into silvers anyway, why not just do it right away?  You get rid of "dead" cards earlier and replace them with cards of monetary value.  I think this would help get to the $5 or 6$ level faster than leaving green cards in your deck.  Then once they are remade, you can work on the coppers.

[Dave970]

Just depends on what's in your hand at the time, and what's on the board, really.  Assuming you buy a remake with a 4/3 start, say you draw Remake, Copper, Copper, Estate, Estate.  Are there any good $2 cards on the board?  If not, make your deck smaller, since you weren't going to buy anything, anyway.  But if there is a good $2 card, why not dump the Estates to Silvers (at least, or something else useful), and also buy the $2 card?  Also, if you do decide on the Estate -> Silver route, when it all comes back around in the next shuffle, you're likely to have money to get something useful (via the Silvers) while still dumping the Coppers you wanted to dump anyway.  I'm sure the mathematicians will have a fact-backed answer soon    My answer is that the best choice will be different in any different game and shuffle.

[HockeyHippo]

I agree, having a thinner deck will allow you to draw your remake faster, resulting in more trashing and a better overall deck.

[PetterTB]

Hey, I never thought of it that way before! I usually trash the estates as soon as I have the chance!

[guided]

I would prefer Remaking an Estate to trashing a Copper just about 100% of the time, I think. I don't think it's close, either. If you find careful study of game situations contradicts my instincts here I'd be very interested to hear about it.

[Superdad]

Funny this post appeared. I'm not remake's biggest fan, but a few days ago I ran into a game where remake was really good.

I played the game and remade my estates, but after the game I realized that I could have gone with a pretty aggressive bishop/silver/silver/gold/province deck had I instead remade the coppers first.

I actually think remake is a very strong card, particularly on a bishop board in a province game. All you really need to do is get up to a single gold in terms of buying power, and just keep trash trash trashing your deck down. When you get down far enough, you bishop the remake (and generally buy the gold this turn as well, ideally with a 5-card deck of bishop/silver/silver/silver/gold).

I find it pretty funny that this post popped up, I've been meaning to create it myself. I mean, steward is pretty solid at the start of a game.

[WanderingWinder]

The only reason (okay, you might actually want the estates, and if you've played a bridge or something and other very rare circumstances exist, but most of the time) you want to ditch the coppers first is because you will more often get the remake with bad cards early on. And I'm with guided, I doubt this is a good enough reason. Copper really isn't THAT bad.

[Superdad]

There are some decks where it's absolutely critical to reaching a thin deck fast. The bishop deck is a perfect example of this for two reasons. Firstly, it wants to hit a 5 card deck as soon as possible. Secondly, it doesn't need a whole lot of buying power. It really only needs to hit 3 silvers, 1 gold, 1 bishop, then it buys a province every turn.

Another example would be a Worker's Village/Peddler deck. It really only needs to hit $4, and it wants to be very lean. You would absolutely buy more peddlers faster if you trashed coppers before estates. I don't know if in this particular deck I would trash 4 coppers in a row, but I could see trashing the first two, then trashing two estates to silvers, then going back to coppers.

[rrenaud]

Awesome, I thought I was going to get a "yeah dude, trash the coppers", so at least someone will learn something from this .

Here is a game that motivated the remake coppers rather than estates first.  It was a Colony game, which probably helps the case for getting rid of coppers early, since there is a bigger cost for having coppers in the deck longer.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110712-211120-8205e975.html

I kind of wish I had a more advanced search, so I could query for games involving players >= level 30, where both open remake, and one trashes coppers early while the other remakes estates.

[guided]

I mean, you could just run a simulation of two single-Remake/Big Money bots, one that prefers to trash Copper and one that prefers to upgrade Estates. Not the end-all-be-all in settling the debate, but fairly instructive nonetheless.

[rrenaud]

Yeah, big money strategy simulations could offer some insight.  But simulations tend to vastly undervalue a trimmed deck (here, the small deck let's the upgrade/library combo work well together).  Chapel/big money barely beats big money in simulations, but anyone who is good at all loves chapel.

[WanderingWinder]

It's going to be situational. In colony games, you're more likely to want to trash the coppers, as you say.
Not sure how easy that's going to be to set up in the sims. Certainly we can't do it with what's publicly available to us. One of the coders of the sim could probably do it pretty easily. But we can always do it old-school; solitaire the thing.

Also, I think I'm 'good at all', but I don't love chapel. Just like I don't love ambassador (though ambassador is worse). Doesn't mean I don't think they're incredibly powerful.

[Elyv]

I feel like it depends on the board. If there are a lot of good actions/cursing attacks, I'd rather trash the copper so I can draw my mountebanks or whatever more frequently. If there aren't, I'd rather get silvers so I can get my golds faster.

[guided]

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110712-211120-8205e975.html

I've had difficulty reproducing anything like this result, either by prefering to trash copper or estates. I'm beginning to think it was mainly a matter of getting lucky at turns 4 and 5:

Code: [Select]

--- rrenaud's turn 4 ---
rrenaud plays a Silver and 3 Coppers.
rrenaud buys an Upgrade.
(rrenaud reshuffles.)
(rrenaud draws: 5 Coppers.)

--- rrenaud's turn 5 ---
rrenaud plays 5 Coppers.
rrenaud buys an Upgrade.
(rrenaud draws: a Remake, a Silver, an Upgrade, and 2 Estates.)

Trashing 2 Coppers at turn 3 and then getting Upgrades on the next 2 turns is very good and very unlikely.

[ARTjoMS]

I think that estates to silvers is clearly better, if you fail to do this your buying power will fall behind resulting in snowball effect.

I think that more interesting early copper/estate problem is when you draw ambassador, 3 coppers and an estate.

[rrenaud]

If you trash the coppers, your deck gets smaller so that you can further remake it quickly.  Once it gets very small, you can turn the estates into silvers that are drawn basically very turn and have a nice comeback.  You have a long "early game" in return for a short "mid game."

I think the mint like "don't trash coppers too early" heuristic is wrong, because you can move up the money ladder quickly after your deck is small without the need for coppers via the estate to silver remake.

But it's possible that I am just overgeneralizing from one game that went very smoothly.

[WanderingWinder]

As I've said, I think both are reasonable, and it largely depends on the board, but generally trashing the estates first is preferable.
But I also think opening mint/decent-money-producing-$2 is much much better than it gets credit for on these boards.

[painted_cow]

Well, I think this choice is not easy at all. When I go for a chainlike deck I would trash coppers first (really trashing instead of "just" upgrading your estates). So you will draw your engine, and with it the Remake more often.

While when you go for BigMoney type deck trashing Estates should be better, cause you get to 6 faster.

[WanderingWinder]

I also want to point out that it matters what you're remaking into. If you're lifting the estates into some kind of cantrip-plus, it's a no-brainer to go for the estates first. So actually there's either big money or combo decks without cantrip 3s that are going to benefit most from trashing the coppers first.

[ackack]

I think that estates to silvers is clearly better, if you fail to do this your buying power will fall behind resulting in snowball effect.

I think that more interesting early copper/estate problem is when you draw ambassador, 3 coppers and an estate.

Yep, I agree with both of these. The argument that occasionally there are spots where Remaking Coppers first is better I can see, but I think that's the exception and not the rule. I also think the "always return 2" heuristic with Ambassador is not obvious, and again depends on what else is going on.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I mean, you could just run a simulation of two single-Remake/Big Money bots, one that prefers to trash Copper and one that prefers to upgrade Estates. Not the end-all-be-all in settling the debate, but fairly instructive nonetheless.

I don't think this can really provide much insight. I suspect estate->silver is better is better in big money decks, what with big money decks relying heavily on silver and not caring much for deck-size reduction. But if you're transitioning into something that requires a lot of trashing, trashing the coppers first may be favorable.

[drg]

If there are really useful 2's, 3's and 4's you almost surely want to trash the estates so you get some of those useful cards and still have your turn's buy power.  Like.. hamlet, fishing village, smithy being around, or pawns and peddlers.

If just going for silvers, depends on the board. If trying to put together an action engine, probably best to trash the coppers. If the board is crap, it's a province game and just going for $$, get rid of the estates and get the silvers.

[philosophyguy]

One factor that needs to be emphasized is that the Remake strategy that trashes Copper cannot trash as fast as a Chapel strategy. While the Chapel player does need to buy a Silver at some point (hopefully he/she can afford it on a turn when the Chapel is not in hand), the Chapel can nuke twice as many cards as the Remake in one go. Remake does have an edge in that it can flip Estates to Silvers, so it can gain more buying power in one turn. But, I don't know if Remake can thin fast enough to make use of that advantage vs. a Chapel player who will get to cycle the deck quicker and hence move out of the early-game phase sooner.

Obviously this gets quite complicated when we start looking at what other cards are available in the $3-4 range. But, I would be interested in seeing a simulation of Chapel-BM vs. Remake-trash-copper-then Estate to Silver-BM. That comparison should at least give a sense of whether the ability of Remake to quickly create buying power outweighs the slower start vis-a-vis Chapel.

[philosophyguy]

Follow-up: I couldn't run a proper simulation, but I did try out a comparison of Chapel vs. Remake-trash-coppers with perfect shuffle luck. Best case scenario, the Remake strategy is in far better shape than I assumed against the Chapel strategy.

By the end of turn 6, Chapel had a deck of Chapel and 3 Silvers. By comparison, Remake had a deck of 3 Copper, 3 Estates, but 2 Silvers and a Gold. So, Remake has better buying power at the moment, and also can scale up faster because the Estates are still around to convert to Silver.

Play details, if anyone is curious:

Turn	Chapel	Remake
1	Buy Chapel	Buy Remake
2	Buy Silver	Buy Silver
3	Trash Estate x 3 & Copper x 1	Remake Copper x 2
4	Buy Silver	Buy Silver
5	Trash Copper x 4	Remake Copper x 2
6	Trash Copper x 2;	Buy Gold
	Buy Silver

Even if the Chapel player decides not to trash the Copper on turn 6 in order to buy a Gold, the Remake strategy can still scale up faster because the remaining Estates are Silvers-in-waiting for Remake.

[randomdragoon]

Follow-up: I couldn't run a proper simulation, but I did try out a comparison of Chapel vs. Remake-trash-coppers with perfect shuffle luck. Best case scenario, the Remake strategy is in far better shape than I assumed against the Chapel strategy.

By the end of turn 6, Chapel had a deck of Chapel and 3 Silvers. By comparison, Remake had a deck of 3 Copper, 3 Estates, but 2 Silvers and a Gold. So, Remake has better buying power at the moment, and also can scale up faster because the Estates are still around to convert to Silver.

Play details, if anyone is curious:

Turn	Chapel	Remake
1	Buy Chapel	Buy Remake
2	Buy Silver	Buy Silver
3	Trash Estate x 3 & Copper x 1	Remake Copper x 2
4	Buy Silver	Buy Silver
5	Trash Copper x 4	Remake Copper x 2
6	Trash Copper x 2;	Buy Gold
	Buy Silver

Even if the Chapel player decides not to trash the Copper on turn 6 in order to buy a Gold, the Remake strategy can still scale up faster because the remaining Estates are Silvers-in-waiting for Remake.

I'm not too surprised; chapel+big money is actually not that strong. In your above example, remake currently has more buying power, but if there is any strong action combo on the board the chapel deck is going to be able to hit it first, due to having vastly fewer cards.

[Kirian]

By the end of turn 6, Chapel had a deck of Chapel and 3 Silvers. By comparison, Remake had a deck of 3 Copper, 3 Estates, but 2 Silvers and a Gold. So, Remake has better buying power at the moment

No, it doesn't.  The Chapel deck has an average draw value (ADV) of 6; the Remake deck has an ADV of 5.  Next turn, Chapel deck has an ADV of 9 (it obviously buys a Gold).  The Remake deck has an ADV of 5.9 if it buys a gold, 7 if it converts two Estates to Silvers, 6.7 if Remake hits C/E.

Also, perfect shuffle luck gets either deck 6 on T4.  Chapel deck at T6 should be Chapel-GGSC with perfect luck (value 9 this turn, 11 next turn [trash C, buy G]); Remaking Coppers with perfect luck gets Remake-GGSCCCEEE (value 6.1 this turn, 7.5 next by Remaking Estates to Silvers).

Let's consider instead a Remake deck trashing Estates:

1/2: Silver/Remake
3: Rem-CEEE, trash EE, gain SS
4: SCCCC, buy G
5: Rem-SCCE, trash CE, gain S, buy S.
6: GSSCC, buy G or P.

Total deck after turn 6 is Rem-GSSSSSCCCCCC plus G or P.  ADV: 7.3 on T5, 7.9 on T6 if a 2nd Gold is bought.

So, we have:

ADV on	Chapel Deck	Remake Estates	Remake Coppers
T5	7	7.3	4.4
T6	9	7.9	6.1
T7	11	8.3	7.5

Two outstanding questions:  (1) What if you buy a second Remake instead of the Gold on T4?  Results won't really show until after T7.  (2) Which strategy is more resilient to bad shuffle luck?

[rattenversammlung]

If anybody thinks that Silver keeps Remake from trashing fast enough,
the only logical conclusion would be that he must prefer Remake/nothing over Remake/Silver.

[painted_cow]

Comparison Chapel to any other trasher...very useful. Chapel always wins!

[WanderingWinder]

I'm actually not sure that the remake is 'scaling up faster' there. In fact, it's probably scaling up a touch slower - chapel player can guarantee buying gold every hand for as long as he likes starting on turn 7. Remake player won't. So chapel player is probably ramping  up significantly faster, but hey, that's not really a surprise. Also, the extra silvers will protect remake player more against deck bloating.

[guided]

My instinct is that by trashing Coppers first you trim like 50% faster at the cost of having basically no buying power at turn 5-7. It doesn't sound like a remotely attractive tradeoff to me.

[DG]

Going back to Renaud's original post, I've trashed coppers ahead of estates with a fair share of both wins and losses so I'm still undecided and playing it game by game. I think I played one game (against WanderingWinder maybe?) where I trashed out the coppers, remade the estates into silver then treasure maps, and cashed them instantly for enough gold to see me home. Getting silvers for spending in the early turns wasn't particularly important.

[WanderingWinder]

According to your logs, you have three TM/Remake games, but the one against me isn't the one you're referring to, which can be found here.

[guided]

I think I played one game (against WanderingWinder maybe?) where I trashed out the coppers, remade the estates into silver then treasure maps, and cashed them instantly for enough gold to see me home. Getting silvers for spending in the early turns wasn't particularly important.

OK, good find. For this combo trashing coppers first is probably better, since you have no need for early buying power and trimming 1-2 turns faster than the other guy is a big deal.


edit: hahaha, oh man I want this hand: "(DG draws: 2 Treasure Maps and 3 Golds.)"

[Superdad]

Also, the above post:

Getting Chapel+EEEC is a much lower probability than anything remake wants. if you mapped the probabilities for each permutation and averaged it out, it would be of more use. "Ideal shuffler" comparisons are really only of value if you compare the probabilities of both ideal situations occuring.

Remake doesn't care for perfect shuffle as much. Chapel trashing 4 coppers is still the correct play, but it is inifinitely inferior to a triple estate chapeling (afterwhich I always say a prayer of thanks to the shuffling gods).

[WanderingWinder]

Are we making a case that remake is a better opener than chapel here?

[chwhite]

Are we making a case that remake is a better opener than chapel here?

Depending on the board, I will in fact sometimes open Remake instead of Chapel.  In particular, the presence of good $3 cards like Menagerie and Fishing Village will push me towards Remake.

Overall, Chapel is on balance better, but that's mostly because of the 2/5 split.  Remake is by no means alone in the category of "deck thinners I'll take instead of Chapel": the Ambassador/Ambassador opening is not to be trifled with, and if the board leans Big Money I'll probably go Masquerade/Silver instead of Chapel.  It's pretty rarefied company though.

[Kirian]

Remake doesn't care for perfect shuffle as much.

Agreed.

Chapel trashing 4 coppers is still the correct play, but it is inifinitely inferior to a triple estate chapeling

[insert Inigo Montoya picture here]  Inigo would like to have some words with you.  16 to be precise.

Are we making a case that remake is a better opener than chapel here?

A more difficult question, this, if we ignore "optimal shuffles."  Would you rather trash four coppers or two coppers?  Obviously the former.  Would you rather trash CCCE or trash a Copper and turn Estate into Silver?  Tougher call.  There's a table to be made here I'm sure.

Remake is by no means alone in the category of "deck thinners I'll take instead of Chapel": the Ambassador/Ambassador opening is not to be trifled with

Simulations show that Ambassador/Chapel is superior to double Ambassador.

[WanderingWinder]

I can't think of a 16-word Inigo quote, and I can quote like half that movie off the top of my head.
Your sims can't really show that Chapel/Amb is superior to double Amb. It's highly situational to the rest of the board.

[guided]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouKeepUsingThatWord

[papaHav]

Played a game recently opening remake/pawn-> peddlers.
Remaking copper took the cake here over estates since there were no 3$ actions and silver just clogs my deck as much as estates (with regards to lifting 5 peddlers at once)

Remake peddler-> plat.
Still prefer cleaning copper!

[WanderingWinder]

For some reason I was thinking it was "you keep ON using that word..." and I was getting 17. My apologies.

[Anon79]

This may be a crazy idea, but what about trashing one copper and turning one estate into a silver, instead of trashing 2 coppers or remaking 2 estates?

[IamOBESE]

mind is blown

[Kirian]

This may be a crazy idea, but what about trashing one copper and turning one estate into a silver, instead of trashing 2 coppers or remaking 2 estates?

I started a whole long post, then realized that this has been summed up much better and more simply by rattenversammlung:

If anybody thinks that Silver keeps Remake from trashing fast enough, the only logical conclusion would be that he must prefer Remake/nothing over Remake/Silver.

Who will champion the idea that Remake/nothing is better than Remake/Silver?

[Anon79]

I will champion the idea that Remaking your 2nd Estate into your 3rd Silver (assuming you started Remake/Silver) is worth less than trashing your first Copper.

[rspeer]

Who will champion the idea that Remake/nothing is better than Remake/Silver?

I'm not sure I believe it but I'll give it a try: on http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Remake, Remake/nothing has a slightly higher mean than Remake/Silver.

(Their error bars entirely overlap, though, so don't consider this any sort of well-founded conclusion.)

[Willvon]

This past weekend we had a 3-player game with Remake as the only trashing card in which we played the same deck twice.  We also had Menagerie as the Bane card.  The first time, I focused on trashing Estates into Menagerie/Siliver.  I still ended up with several curses despite the fact that I had several Menageries in my deck.  The second game I worked on trashing the coppers first over the estates (except for one hand where I did an estate and a copper).  My deck thinned quicker, and combining that with City and Young Witch, my two Menageries that I ended up with were getting pulled more regularly into my hand so that I actually ended up getting only two curses from the Young Witch.  The deck also included Festival, Militia and Horse Traders.  So even though I was low at first on treasure, those cards were giving me virtual money that allowed me to get to Platinums, Golds and Provinces pretty quickly.  My Tournaments then hit with my Provinces for the prizes and were giving me a card and a coin early.

I don't know that this would be true with all boards, but for me it definitely worked out better to thin the deck by getting rid of coppers first over turning Estates into Silvers/Menageries.  In addition, having action cards that give $2 in place of the lost coppers works great.