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WanderingWinder

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The Slog
« on: December 31, 2012, 05:11:24 pm »
+14

Everyone always talks about there being two kinds of decks - Big Money and Engine. But I think there are really 5 general kinds of deck, and I want to talk about the 3rd most prevalent in this article - the Slog - which falls in place between Big Money and The Rush.

What characterizes the Slog?
There is no clear dividing line to break slogs off from other deck types, just as there isn't always a bright line between Big Money decks and Engine decks. But some rules of thumb are that you cycle very slowly, copper is near- or above-average money density for most of the game, or you generally expect, if the game is well played, to get more points from duchies than from provinces. Slogs tend not to be many people's ideas of fun (so it's probably good that they aren't good nearly so often as engines or big money), as you spend many turns doing not a whole lot but playing 3 to 4ish cards a turn (including treasure!) and buying one thing. Now, this may sound a lot like big money to you, but for what I'd really call a slog, it's more like small money - in a big money deck, your average hand cash generally goes up past $6; in a slog, it wouldn't.

Why play a Slog?
Most usually, your opponent sort of forces you into it. The number one reason to play a slog is because your opponent is playing junking attacks on you - cursers, particularly Ill Gotten Gains, sea hag, and mountebank, or ambassador (looters MAY have a similar effect, but I haven't played enough Dark Ages to be sure). Noble Brigand can work similarly by giving you copper and disincentivizing you from buying more expensive treasures. Now, these don't necessarily doom you to a slog, particularly if there's trashing (an ambassador *war* isn't a slog... until you lose or give up), a super-strong engine, or some way of dealing with the curses. Or just enough money sitting around with something productive to do (a la jack, trader, watchtower).

The reason you'll voluntarily go for a slog, usually, is certain alternate VP cards - namely, gardens, duke, and silk road. For each of these, if you can just load up on lots of stuff, even junk, with lots of things like copper, and just wait and drag the game on, you can actually have really good chances to rack up lots of points. Now, it's important not to get this confused with a rush, like a workshop/gardens rush, which is more about getting three piles gone quickly. Slogs want the game to last many turns, in order to reap their long, large, slow benefits.
Fairgrounds can sort of reach into this category, but usually for fairgrounds, you start out as at least a money deck, and you generally want at least one province, and 6 for a long time, which is usually a bit more than 'pure' slogs can really muster.
Philosopher's stone, of course, also pushes you to a slog more or less all the time, but it is just not that good very often; with the right deck, though (say, against mountebank in some situations, after familiars trade curses, or of course with herbalist), it can really shine and say 'slog it up'!

What's good for Slogs?

well, aside from the alternate victory cards and P-Stone mentioned above, the biggest things are cards that let you discard for benefit (like vault, horse traders, cellar), because you usually have some lousy cards to pitch, and sifters (a la cartographer and warehouse) for largely the same reason. VP Chip cards are good, too, but they almost always help engines more if ever there's a choice for one, and they can often help big money more as well. Cards giving +buy or gain almost anything also tend to be useful, as free coppers are nice, and if you can do better, that's even better. Thus, silver-gainers are really great for this kind of deck - if copper tends to be good, then we can imagine what silver can do for you.
General interaction with opponents
Opponents' hand-size attacks don't hurt as much as with say a big money deck, because you usually have very pitch-able cards. And one might guess that penalties from opponents' cards will often help, too - opponents' vaults are brilliant for you, as are the free silvers from embassy. Though since slogs don't like trashing almost at all, opponents' bishops are extra-powered. Cursing and junking attacks obviously still hurt (well, not if the junk is a copper), but this is greatly mitigated in comparison with basically every other deck type - which is why they lead you to slogs in the first place. What really hurts a slog player, though, and this is in contrast to most every other deck type, is trashing attacks. Swindler, saboteur, pirate ship, thief, all very poor cards in general, really crush you by eating your economy, leaving you with a deck too swamped to do ANYTHING.


Match-ups with other deck types

Against Big Money
Against big money, slogs can really shine. This is the best match-up, in the general case, for a slog deck. You largely make them try to buy out all the provinces, or enough to overcome whatever you can put together off of the cheaper green, and they often just don't have the longevity to do it. If they try to build up for a long time in order to have that longevity, the Slog player should either look to build up an insurmountable lead (i.e. via having a matrix of duchies with gardens, silk roads, or dukes; sometimes just gardens; it should be noted that colonies make this strategy quite bad) or to get a lead and then end on three piles (you see this more in cursing games, where you can pile out duchy+curse and some other convenient card before they get enough provinces). If going for the VP matrix route, you should make sure to build up your economy enough to be able to complete the matrix before stalling out, though you have to balance this out against your opponent's ability to block some of your key card and deny you.

Against Engines

Engine is a very difficult match-up for the Slog, assuming that the engine is very viable at all. If the engine is very slow to come together, then the Slog player can hope to win by accumulating a VP matrix, though he usually has less time to do this than he would against a Big Money opponent (BM may beat engines to 4 provinces, but very rarely will engine not be able to get all 8 of them faster). But the main weapon against engine players is the three pile ending - you can cut out their ability to build the engine as large as they want, in some cases, by threatening to be able to do this if they make piles too low, and this can help you GREATLY. If they DO continue to build to far, of course, you need to be able to look at that and be willing to potentially pass up more victory cards in order to try to secure the piling out before they can catch up to you.

Against Slogs (mirror)
In the Mirror, you want to get to your key cards pretty fast - for Dukes, this is duchy, for silk road or gardens, it is those cards - much faster than you would in other match-ups. Whereas you need to build up a bit against a big money deck, here it's almost all about winning that key split, which means you want to start in pretty soon. You want to wait as long as you can before starting, so that you have the longevity to continue fighting for 5-cost VP cards after the main fight is over, but NOT at the expense of the split itself, in most every situation, as those extra points usually don't make up for a 2-card swing of your key card (or worse!). If you win the split, look to get to the three-pile ending as efficiently as possible - most often this is by pushing for it yourself, so that your opponent doesn't have time to rebuild and go after provinces or something, but sometimes this means to play it slow yourself, so that your superiority in the key card (which likely cues off having more cards in your deck, either total or of a specific type) can come through. If you lose the split, you need to judge whether you can possibly re-build and get enough expensive VP cards before the game ends to overcome your deficit, or more often to try to rush smaller green cards as fast as you can, to try to three pile ending where some luck might save you.

Against the Rush
This is another tough match-up. If it's a poor rush, you can just grab enough VP early enough for them not to be able to end the game, and then you've basically won. Alternatively, if they are going for the same alt-VP card as you, if you can manage to hold your own on the split, you're often able to outlast them on secondary VP cards (i.e. against a player who is going for a gardens rush, if you can hold off the split well enough, you can hope to come out ahead by being able to get more duchies). Generally, though, a viable rush is going to own a slog pretty badly.

Against Combo
As is basically always the case, it depends on the combo. But generally this match-up is similar to the matchup with engine, only it tends to be worse, since a combo is more likely to be able to power straight through, is generally less prone to stalling, can build up more, and usually doesn't have to worry as much about three pile endings.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 10:10:12 pm by WanderingWinder »
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DG

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2012, 05:25:38 pm »
+1

I thought you might have mentioned buys and gains. Extra buys help sustain a bad slog with copper or can speed a 3 pile ending with estates. Gains can sustain a deck with useful cards, particularly bureaucrat, duchess, hoard, and explorer. Dark ages will have plenty too with beggar, armoury, squire, and so on. Emptying three piles with curses, duchies, and estates is also a feature of most slogs and most players start buying duchies too late, still hoping to buy some provinces.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 05:26:51 pm by DG »
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jomini

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2012, 06:24:30 pm »
0

Another nice thing about slogs is how they are often effectively immune from many other attacks. Militia? Like I don't have two green cards to discard. Spy - well thanks you put back my Duke, not like I wasn't drawing him in any event. Jester? Well here's a dilemma - do you want my engine killing garbage or do you give it to me to keep the slog alive; thankfully this does tend to get a bit offset by the increased chance of dropping curses. Even Masq has little bite as you hand over a copper or curse and let them hand you a copper or VP.

A few attacks are more useful against slogs - Cutpurse - dropping you down from 4 to 3 matters little in BM or engines, but in a slog that can mean buying massive points in a Silk road or just another silver. B-crat - you can actually B-Crat pin slog decks, but more often you just slow them down, much like Cutpurse. Rabble - perhaps the ultimate anti-slog card. A deck full of coppers & junk is rarely going to be able to skip the junk and you will often leave them with 3 or 2 coin hands that can do little. Another strong card against the slog are card trashers - Swindler can turn gardens into potions, Knights can normally bash away at the green without worry, and even Sab can be good with one play knocking 8 or so points out of a late game deck.


Goons are middling - the extra VP is nice making up for the very weak attack at high opportunity cost. In engines, Goons just toast slog decks silly. They don't slow down and normally can easily set up more VP per turn gained than slog decks can ever hop to achieve (e.g. 3 goons in play a time can give you 6 or 9 VP a turn without breaking a sweat with cheap cantrips).

Other slog weaknesses:
Bishop. If the opponent contests your key card & uses it as Bishop bait, you will have a hard time piling out with enough points to beat him, particularly once he starts in on provinces. Except for curses and estates, you rarely want to trash anything which gives the opponent an inherent advantage.

Other Tfbs. Will I Remodel your gardens into something useful if I can draw my deck? You betcha. Will I Iw a Silk Road when I can, just to Salvage it? Yes, yes I will. Rebuild, why yes I want your duchies and your dukes to turn into provinces. You may be able to mitigate this in turn with some trash diving, but I wouldn't bet on it.


Likewise, a lot of TfB's let the province player down the province stack quickly by trashing a province for a province.  This can greatly hasten game end even without a full engine.



Oddly enough, more Alt-VP can be bad for slogs. A province player tends to have an easier shot at gaining & boosting up Fairgrounds than a slogger going Silk Roads. Likewise, Nobles can let an engine player get some breathing room without slowing down the engine; even Great Halls can help here. Harems or Feoda can make BM viable for longer and require ever more bulking of your key cards. It becomes increasing hard to go for the long game with more VP in the game. Islands can go either way. Tunnels tend to help Silk Roads and hurt Gardens, though both can get toasted if strong enablers are out for tunnels; many of the same cards that enable slogs in the first place may fall in here. Farmland again is more breathing space for engines & BM, particularly with tricks like buy a Farmland & remodel a Gold into a province.


A final weakness is 3er or higher. Two BM players chasing six provinces each will get there A LOT faster than one chasing 8. Likewise two sloggers, splitting the key VP cards, against one province deck tend to end badly for the sloggers.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2012, 06:28:31 pm »
0

I thought you might have mentioned buys and gains. Extra buys help sustain a bad slog with copper or can speed a 3 pile ending with estates. Gains can sustain a deck with useful cards, particularly bureaucrat, duchess, hoard, and explorer. Dark ages will have plenty too with beggar, armoury, squire, and so on. Emptying three piles with curses, duchies, and estates is also a feature of most slogs and most players start buying duchies too late, still hoping to buy some provinces.
I DO mention them:

What's good for Slogs?

well, aside from the alternate victory caards and P-Stone mentioned above, the biggest things are cards that let you discard for benefit (like vault, horse traders, cellar), because you usually have some lousy cards to pitch, and sifters (a la cartographer and warehouse) for largely the same reason. VP Chip cards are good, too, but they almost always help engines more if ever there's a choice for one, and they can often help big money more as well. Cards giving +buy or gain almost anything also tend to be useful, as free coppers are nice, and if you can do better, that's even better.

Warrior

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2012, 06:43:51 pm »
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Great article. Could you explain the difference between a rush and a slog a little more deeply as that is a concept I have not yet grasped. Also, when do you go for a slog with alt. VP and when do you go for a rush? Thanks!

warrior297
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Robz888

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2012, 06:49:04 pm »
+2

One situation I find the slog is strong (and often undervalued) is a Cursing game with no (or near-useless, like Loan or something) trashing. Sometimes you see people still attempt the engine there, picking up like Village and weak draw components and stuff and I'm always thinking, man, just buy Silvers like crazy, take the Coppers off extra buys, and run with the slog. Don't fight it.
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jonts26

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2012, 11:22:45 pm »
+1

Great article. Could you explain the difference between a rush and a slog a little more deeply as that is a concept I have not yet grasped. Also, when do you go for a slog with alt. VP and when do you go for a rush? Thanks!

warrior297

Here's an article I wrote which might be somewhat helpful here, though I don't really go into detail about when to rush vs. slog. Just a basic overview.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3322.msg61589#msg61589
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Warrior

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2012, 11:28:38 pm »
0

Great article. Could you explain the difference between a rush and a slog a little more deeply as that is a concept I have not yet grasped. Also, when do you go for a slog with alt. VP and when do you go for a rush? Thanks!

warrior297

Here's an article I wrote which might be somewhat helpful here, though I don't really go into detail about when to rush vs. slog. Just a basic overview.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3322.msg61589#msg61589

Thanks! I remember reading that article a while back. I was just curious when to go for a slog, or when to go for a rush, and what makes each one viable.
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jonts26

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2012, 11:35:51 pm »
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If you want a rush, you aren't looking for your alt VP to reach the point value of provinces. So if you can't get gardens or silk road up to 6 points, you probably have to be thinking either slog or support.

But if you want a general guideline, I'd say Gardens are usually rushes; dukes, fairgrounds, vineyards are usually slogs. Silk road really goes both ways.
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Warrior

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2013, 11:37:04 am »
0

If you want a rush, you aren't looking for your alt VP to reach the point value of provinces. So if you can't get gardens or silk road up to 6 points, you probably have to be thinking either slog or support.

But if you want a general guideline, I'd say Gardens are usually rushes; dukes, fairgrounds, vineyards are usually slogs. Silk road really goes both ways.

So a rush tries to end the game with low point VP before your opponent has the chance to buy provinces. And a slog drags the game on a long time so your alt. VP are worth more points than your opponent's provinces. Am I correct?

warrior297
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jonts26

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2013, 12:07:50 pm »
+1

If you want a rush, you aren't looking for your alt VP to reach the point value of provinces. So if you can't get gardens or silk road up to 6 points, you probably have to be thinking either slog or support.

But if you want a general guideline, I'd say Gardens are usually rushes; dukes, fairgrounds, vineyards are usually slogs. Silk road really goes both ways.

So a rush tries to end the game with low point VP before your opponent has the chance to buy provinces. And a slog drags the game on a long time so your alt. VP are worth more points than your opponent's provinces. Am I correct?

warrior297

More or less. Though a slog doesnt have to have alt VP. Whenever provinces or colonies become nonviable you can have a slog. Really messy games like 3 player no trash/cycle sea hag games might just push you towards buying duchies and ignoring provinces.
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Warrior

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2013, 12:11:29 pm »
0

If you want a rush, you aren't looking for your alt VP to reach the point value of provinces. So if you can't get gardens or silk road up to 6 points, you probably have to be thinking either slog or support.

But if you want a general guideline, I'd say Gardens are usually rushes; dukes, fairgrounds, vineyards are usually slogs. Silk road really goes both ways.

So a rush tries to end the game with low point VP before your opponent has the chance to buy provinces. And a slog drags the game on a long time so your alt. VP are worth more points than your opponent's provinces. Am I correct?

warrior297

More or less. Though a slog doesnt have to have alt VP. Whenever provinces or colonies become nonviable you can have a slog. Really messy games like 3 player no trash/cycle sea hag games might just push you towards buying duchies and ignoring provinces.

Gotcha!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2013, 09:14:12 pm »
+1

On the rush vs slog thing, basically what jonts said. I'd say that gardens and silk road can really go either way, depending on the support they have, i.e. in either case, if you're getting hit with junking attacks, playing a slog with these is basically immediately viable.

Also keep in mind that there are many ways to play these alt VP cards - rushing them is usually best, given that a scaling alt-VP strategy is the way to go, but engines really benefit from them as well - the extra points give the engine longer to get set up - and slogs can of course benefit too, by just making them massive.
Duke is something that you can't really rush - there's just no way to get to 11-12 duchies/dukes fast enough for it to be a rush.

Warrior

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2013, 11:10:51 pm »
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On the rush vs slog thing, basically what jonts said. I'd say that gardens and silk road can really go either way, depending on the support they have, i.e. in either case, if you're getting hit with junking attacks, playing a slog with these is basically immediately viable.

Also keep in mind that there are many ways to play these alt VP cards - rushing them is usually best, given that a scaling alt-VP strategy is the way to go, but engines really benefit from them as well - the extra points give the engine longer to get set up - and slogs can of course benefit too, by just making them massive.
Duke is something that you can't really rush - there's just no way to get to 11-12 duchies/dukes fast enough for it to be a rush.

Thanks a bunch.

warrior297
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2013, 10:10:25 pm »
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I've made some revisions and added some material.

Warrior

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2013, 11:11:20 pm »
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I've made some revisions and added some material.

Great! Nice article.

warrior297
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Re: The Slog
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2013, 11:13:45 pm »
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And thanks for adding that extra info about the slog vs. rush. It really clears things up. And a thanks to Jonts, as well!

warrior297
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Re: The Slog
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2013, 07:44:52 am »
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Are Ghost Ship fests not considered slogs? They play differently, but they can make Duchies look attractive too.
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Re: The Slog
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2013, 10:44:32 am »
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I'm surprised to see P-stone games listed as slogs, because they break the rule of not having a lot of money to spend and not going for Provinces. In a deck where P-stone is viable, you should be buying Provinces with them, I'd think.
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jomini

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2013, 12:24:08 pm »
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I'm surprised to see P-stone games listed as slogs, because they break the rule of not having a lot of money to spend and not going for Provinces. In a deck where P-stone is viable, you should be buying Provinces with them, I'd think.

Well for starters there are Colony games where you really want to buy colonies with them. The other thing about P-stone games is that, yes you eventually want to hit provinces, but often you will be at a point where you just spam buy duchies (if there is no better 5 to buy) and you may well lose the province split 5:3 but win because your deck really doesn't care if it is slammed full of duchies and estates.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2013, 01:28:42 pm »
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I'm surprised to see P-stone games listed as slogs, because they break the rule of not having a lot of money to spend and not going for Provinces. In a deck where P-stone is viable, you should be buying Provinces with them, I'd think.
Yeah, but the vast majority of hands are pretty terrible. This does violate my rules of thumb a bit, but p-stone games are decidedly more slog-y than BM-y, at least in most cases.

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2013, 03:25:11 pm »
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Are Ghost Ship fests not considered slogs? They play differently, but they can make Duchies look attractive too.
Well, I don't so much think they actually make duchies look that attractive, but I think the ones you are thinking of I would classify as BM, but they are in what might be called a grey area (or might be called a gray area). Though, generally, they're a great reason to go engine.

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Re: The Slog
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2013, 04:32:24 pm »
0

Are Ghost Ship fests not considered slogs? They play differently, but they can make Duchies look attractive too.
Well, I don't so much think they actually make duchies look that attractive, but I think the ones you are thinking of I would classify as BM, but they are in what might be called a grey area (or might be called a gray area). Though, generally, they're a great reason to go engine.

I agree with WW on this one.  GS doesn't make Duchy buying attractive by any means.  I'd say what it does best is make make Gold and a highly robust economy that much more attractive.  If you know that you will be hit by the ship on most turns, in your hand of 5 Cards you need either GGSXX or Gs,SSSS to Province.  If you are buying Duchies, you will get beat by a person who builds up to above Province buying capabilities. 

Notice what kinds of hands you need to get province.  You either need 2 Golds and a Silver in situation 1 or 4 Silvers and a GS in situation 2.  Duchy buying affects both situations by not being Gold for situation 1(if you bought it with >$6) and by being Green (it's presence affects situation 2 if in hand).
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