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Author Topic: Jester  (Read 5812 times)

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krawhitham

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Jester
« on: July 06, 2011, 09:44:26 pm »
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I would like to ask for suggestions on how to effectively counter Jester.

As far as I can tell the only way to truly defend against it is a Moat.

Any defence that lets you re-order what is on the top of your deck will either present your opponent with a good card that they will discard and then gain a copy of, or gives them a bad card which they will give you a copy of.

Oh and as a bonus it will hand out curses on occasion. But wait, there is more! It also gives you 2 dollars to spend. For a 5 dollar card this seems an absolute bargain.

So when my opponent opens 5/2... what can I do to counter a Jester based deck?
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IamOBESE

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Re: Jester
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2011, 09:48:51 pm »
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I feel like Jester has been much less powerful than I thought it would be (at least in 1v1).

Yes, it's effect is pretty good, but it is a 5 cost terminal and pretty "slow" in terms of improving his deck or demolishing yours. I don't usually do anything special against Jester and come out just fine.

Councilroom shows .99 winrate with and 1.02 winrate without, so I'm supported by those numbers at least
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Jester
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2011, 09:57:24 pm »
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Watchtower would let you trash the junk cards you get, but wouldn't do anything about your opponent gaining a good card.

In general, Jester strikes me as a middling attack card.  It's basically the illigitimate offspring of smugglers and montebank.  I consider it to be on par with something like Treasury - I won't say no to it, but it's not typically a build-around-me card.  The best defense is a good offense: don't purchase any reaction cards, buy a Jester yourself or invest in trashing to get rid of the coppers/estates/curses it gives. 

I certainly wouldn't waste a slot in my deck on a moat to defend against it.  I might take a lighthouse, but I have a soft spot for that card, and will take it even without an attack on the board.
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Axe Knight

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Re: Jester
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2011, 10:05:01 pm »
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I generally like the Jester, as it's a more powerful Smugglers with a twist.   It's also one of the few cards in Dominion that lets you gain an Alchemy card without buying it.  (Oh, the joys of Jestering an Alchemist.)  But it can also lead to some awkward mid-game decisions like...do I really need more Silver?  Should I give them a Saboteur or me?  A Swindler?  The decision is not always easy.  All this being said, I think the best way to defend against is...buy them too, and as, Taco Lobster said, get rid of the cards you wouldn't want more of.  When the curses are gone, they also could be helping you by discarding a non-action victory card off the top of your deck.  This, obviously, means that Jester is far more powerful in decks without good trashing than with.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Jester
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2011, 11:01:20 pm »
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Most effective way? Depends on the board. Usually? Just ignore it.

Elyv

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Re: Jester
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2011, 11:11:12 pm »
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I like Jester, but it's not very good. Most of the time, it'll give the other person a copper or curse while removing a bad card from the top of their deck, so why not just play witch(or, of course, mountebank) and guarantee curses instead?

Also, when you hit a silver or some other mediocre 3/4, most of the time it has basically no impact on the game.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 11:17:39 pm by Elyv »
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drg

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Re: Jester
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2011, 01:26:14 am »
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Like people have said, it's fine as a $5 attack... but the others are better.  Not really something you need to worry about countering.  If there's no trashing, you just have to live with the fact you will have some extra crap floating around.  Moat isn't worth it just for jester, lighthouse maybe.
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painted_cow

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Re: Jester
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2011, 06:09:31 am »
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I dont know, what you all have against Jester...

Of course it is no Witch or Mountebank, but this is not an argument against Jester!

Most common scenarios in beginning : hitting coppers/estate=strong attack, hitting there action card=very strong (at least against reasonable players).

In midgame you give them silvers etc. We all know, that silver clogs their deck.

I would also say to get a own Jester, cards like Moat are not very useful...
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krawhitham

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Re: Jester
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2011, 06:14:41 am »
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I dont know, what you all have against Jester...

Of course it is no Witch or Mountebank, but this is not an argument against Jester!

Most common scenarios in beginning : hitting coppers/estate=strong attack, hitting there action card=very strong (at least against reasonable players).

In midgame you give them silvers etc. We all know, that silver clogs their deck.

I would also say to get a own Jester, cards like Moat are not very useful...

This seems very strange for a Dominion card, to have an attack for which there is no effective counter measure. You can change your buying strategy to neutralise certain cards (even Posession).

I would disagree with most replies, I believe Jester to be a powerful attack card. You either clog up their deck or improve your own and get $2 spending money.
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ShuffleNCut

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Re: Jester
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2011, 06:55:45 am »
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It's a five cost terminal silver (silver clogs decks, this has already been pointed out) that isn't as good at clogging the opponent's deck as Ambassador, Sea Hag, Witch, Mountebank, or anything else and isn't as good at helping your deck as a Laboratory, Vault, or Trading Post.  Jester is probably in the lower half of five cost cards in my experience.  Ambassador ALWAYS trashes from your deck and clogs theirs, Torturer ALWAYS at least draws you three and threatens discard or curse for most of the game, Mountebank gives twice as hard as anything else and trades missing sometimes for that honor.  Jester might help you or hinder them or it might do just about nothing.  Against decks with high density of good cards it's better than usual, however if your opponent already has a lot of good cards it's probably too late for you to steal anything that matters and draw/play it enough to count for anything.  Against a big money player with a warehouse or two it's mediocre at best.

As far as how to counter it?  Most of the time you won't counter any attack, you'll simply play around them and win or mirror their strategy and simply make fewer mistakes.  This is no different.  I would certainly rather get Jestered than hit by any other non Rabble five cost attack.

Watch Jester ride the middle/bottom of the pack.

Also, feel free to jump over to the popular buys on CR and see Jester with a .99 Win Rate With and 1.02 Win Rate Without.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 07:11:23 am by ShuffleNCut »
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painted_cow

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Re: Jester
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2011, 07:38:04 am »
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We all know, that these numbers from CR give cards, that give you some choices and therefor are not as easy to play like coin worse stats. This is because beginners tend to play them wrong and drag the winning rate down.

I really should not care if you all undervalue some cards like Jester, when I get a really high win rate out of it. Everybody knows (even most beginners) that Witch and Mountebank are insane. In Games with them you cant really have a big edge, cause everyone buys them. In games with Jester many ignore/undervalue him and lose. Dunno why I am complaining :D

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DG

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Re: Jester
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2011, 07:38:29 am »
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The first way to counter a jester seems to be trashing your estates early and buying your victory cards a touch later. You sometimes get an opportunity to style your deck so it is full of cards that you can use but your opponent can't, perhaps with transmutes or horns or plenty, but you still need to be careful that you're not damaging yourself by pursuing some strange defence that isn't needed. If it's a good kingdom for jesters then just buy your own.

Also watch for three pile depletion. This can happen very quickly and unexpectedly in jester games.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 12:28:14 pm by DG »
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Tydude

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Re: Jester
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2011, 09:11:52 am »
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So, Jester isn't that great in 2 player, but what about more than 2 players? For example, I just played a 4 person game for the first time in a long time, and I instinctively ignored Jester (for, I think it was Labs). I got demolished. So, how would you rate Jester when compared to the other 5 attacks in more than 2 player games?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Jester
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2011, 09:56:56 am »
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I dont know, what you all have against Jester...

Of course it is no Witch or Mountebank, but this is not an argument against Jester!
It sorta is! I mean, I'm not saying that it's a bad card. But there are a lot of better options at 5, and well, that's what it gets compared to. It's probably somewhere near the middle of the pack as a 5, I think.

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Most common scenarios in beginning : hitting coppers/estate=strong attack, hitting there action card=very strong (at least against reasonable players).
Yeah, but the problem is, you hit an estate means they skip an estate = good for them. Of course giving them a curse is pretty good, so it's overall net good as an attack, but not great. Giving them coppers means them skipping coppers, which is overall pretty neutral. Hitting their actions is of course pretty darn good on most actions, but not all (like chapel - doesn't do much). Probably best early is to hit whatever the best card they have is.

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In midgame you give them silvers etc. We all know, that silver clogs their deck.
Okay, I guess here is as good a place as any to bring this up. "We all know this," but in the majority of decks, pretty good majority of decks actually, I just don't buy this.

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I would also say to get a own Jester, cards like Moat are not very useful...
Of course this is true, but this is what I meant by "ignore it" - play your own game, just get the best cards you think will help your deck, and if Jester is that at 5, get a Jester. Don't specifically try to counter it, just play your game.
I'm not trying to pick on you at all, by the way. You bring up good points, which is why I'm responding to you while fleshing out my argument.

Also, I think Tydude is right that it's a card (like thief for instance) that gets much better the more players there are.

guided

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Re: Jester
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2011, 11:34:40 am »
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How to counter Jester? Be thankful it's not Mountebank or Witch and get on with your game :P
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lefaiison

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Re: Jester
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2011, 11:58:47 am »
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Jester is a bit luck-based which means it if you haven't played with it too much, your opinion can swing heavily both ways.

If you bought a gold (or a big action card) on turn 3/4, and they hit it, it greatly accelerates their deck and slows yours.
If they hit a copper, yeah you get an extra copper, but they discarded the current one, so it's not too bad.
If the get a middle card (village), it's not too much of a big deal.
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Elyv

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Re: Jester
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2011, 12:06:24 pm »
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How to counter Jester? Be thankful it's not Mountebank or Witch and get on with your game :P
Ugh, mountebank openings.

Is there any way of beating them other than "buy a bunch of ambassadors or masquerades" or "Hope that they get unlucky/are not very good"?
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Jester
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2011, 12:09:00 pm »
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I'm not sure anyone is saying Jester is bad, just that it's not as powerful as other $5 attack cards, such as Witch or Mountebank.  If those are on the board, the best strategy is usually to push hard to get to $5 as soon as possible to start using them (even if that means taking something like Feast).  Jester doesn't put a fire under me to get to $5, but I will often take it as my first $5 without regret.
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Taqman

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Re: Jester
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2011, 12:50:09 pm »
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If you bought a gold (or a big action card) on turn 3/4, and they hit it, it greatly accelerates their deck and slows yours.

Right, but this is unlikely, and you could say this about tons of cards.  If your Sea Hag discards his Sea Hag, you probably won the game. 

Jester is best used a card used for building your own deck in the right games.  Like WanderingWinder pointed out, the attack is on average mild at best...  There are plenty of times in the mid/late game where I'd be glad to get a curse in exchange for discarding my province. 

As for the multiplayer argument-- it definitely is a formidable card with more players, but it still is not always a must buy (like witch/ mountebank/ ambassador can be).  In a recent 4 player game with Chapel that I played it was a huge card obviously, but the decisions that come up when your opponents reveal Jesters for example are still interesting ones (MAYBE I want another one, but do I want 2 more Jesters?  If I only keep one, which player do I give another Jester to?).  I think it's a very solid addition to Dominion. 

Basically, Donald X is a genius.
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guided

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Re: Jester
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2011, 06:35:18 pm »
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I'm not sure anyone is saying Jester is bad, just that it's not as powerful as other $5 attack cards, such as Witch or Mountebank.  If those are on the board, the best strategy is usually to push hard to get to $5 as soon as possible to start using them (even if that means taking something like Feast).  Jester doesn't put a fire under me to get to $5, but I will often take it as my first $5 without regret.
I agree with everything in this post.
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