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[dirkdebeule]

It's not quite clear to me how Traits work once a pile is removed; do they still affect the pile (which no longer exists); or no?

Trait is a starting condition.
The moment the Kingdom card is no longer available, the Trait condition stops.
Actually the same result as if the Trait Kingdom pile would be empty.

[faust]

It's not quite clear to me how Traits work once a pile is removed; do they still affect the pile (which no longer exists); or no?

Trait is a starting condition.
The moment the Kingdom card is no longer available, the Trait condition stops.
Actually the same result as if the Trait Kingdom pile would be empty.

That is clearly false, the rulebook states:

• Traits continue to affect the cards from a pile even after the pile is empty.

[faust]

This is what the rulebook has to say on Traits:

At the start of a game with a Trait, choose a random Action or Treasure Kingdom card pile to put the
Trait on; then during that game, cards from that pile are affected as indicated on the Trait.

So I guess the main question that this boils down to is: Are the cards from removed piles still considered to be "from that pile", even though the pile does no longer exist? My intuitive answer would be no; the Trait's "cards from that pile" refers to nothing and thus does nothing.

[dirkdebeule]

It's not quite clear to me how Traits work once a pile is removed; do they still affect the pile (which no longer exists); or no?

Trait is a starting condition.
The moment the Kingdom card is no longer available, the Trait condition stops.
Actually the same result as if the Trait Kingdom pile would be empty.

That is clearly false, the rulebook states:

• Traits continue to affect the cards from a pile even after the pile is empty.

I actually meant the Traits with the gain effect of course, not the Traits which effect the in game Kingdom cards.

[flynd]

So are the 10 new piles known when the game starts or secret until the prophecy triggers?

Secret, the prophecy is a when-then situation.

Wow, this will make for a very unpredictable game.  I both love it and fear it at the same time.

And how is setup for those cards handled?  For example, if Baker is in the second set of piles, do everyone get a Coffer at the start of the game or do we have an extra Setup phase in the middle of someone's turn?

The new setup is done when it needs to be done.
At that moment you handle the new setup and e.g. every player gets a coffer for Baker.

Okay, so am I interpreting this correct?

- Events and Landmarks are not affected (neither removed or any new ones added), which also means the set aside card for Way of the Mouse is unaffected.
- "Setup" shall de treated as a trigger of putting something on the table, not as a phase at the start of the game that can be repeated by Divine Wind.  I.e. the setup for the existing Events and Landmarks such as Tax and Defiled Shrine won't be repeated to put tokens on the new piles, and Arena won't get additional tokens on itself.
- Traits are removed with the old piles and none of the new piles will have any Traits.
- Traits for the old piles, continue to apply to those cards after the pile has been removed.
- If Young Witch was in the first piles, the Bane card is also removed (since it is a kingdom pile).
- If Young Witch is in the new piles, an 11:th kingdom pile for the Bane cards is also added.
- If Black Market was in the first piles, the market deck stays and is still available as it isn't a kingdom pile.
- If Black Market is in the second set of piles, a market deck is set up (and any setup for those cards are also performed).
- If Ferryman was in the first piles, its extra pile stays because it isn't in the kingdom.  The extra cards can still be given out if a Ferryman is gained from the Trash.
- If Trade Route was in the first piles, the coin tokens on Estate, Dutchy, Province, and (if used) Colony stay and can still be moved to the Trade Route mat.
- If the old piles contain Looter(s), the Ruins pile stays as it isn't a kingdom pile.
- If both the old and new piles contain Looter(s), the existing Ruins pile is unaffected, i.e. it isn't refilled.
- The usage of Platinum and Colony is not affected, i.e. they stay if initially used and are never added, regardless of whether the first card in the second set is from Prosperity.
- The usage of Heirlooms and Shelters are not affected (they are neither added nor removed).
- If there were Liasons in both the first set and the new piles, the initially selected Ally is kept and no new Favor tokens are given out (except for the 4 from Importer if present in the new piles).
- Only if there were no Liasons in the first set of piles and there are in the second set does everyone gets a Favor, i.e. this is tied to when an Ally is added.
- Any "in games using this" effects from the first piles continue to apply regardless of whether any of those cards have been gained.  (Otherwise, when Charlatan is removed, a Curse currently in play would suddenly stop being a Treasure.)
- It is not possible to return any of the cards from the old piles to its pile.  (Same as for cards from the market deck or non-pile cards like Heirlooms.)


(I realize that there has been several of posts made while I was writing this so it's possible that something in my list has already been stated to be false.)

[dirkdebeule]

This is what the rulebook has to say on Traits:

At the start of a game with a Trait, choose a random Action or Treasure Kingdom card pile to put the
Trait on; then during that game, cards from that pile are affected as indicated on the Trait.

So I guess the main question that this boils down to is: Are the cards from removed piles still considered to be "from that pile", even though the pile does no longer exist? My intuitive answer would be no; the Trait's "cards from that pile" refers to nothing and thus does nothing.

My intuition says that they once belonged to a Traits activated pile, so all cards are individually Traits activated and can be kept playing that way.

[Jeebus]

It's not quite clear to me how Traits work once a pile is removed; do they still affect the pile (which no longer exists); or no?

They actually do still affect the same cards.

Also, I assume that the intention of Divine Wind is that 10 different piles are selected, but is it possible that a pile from the old kingdom is selected again?

It's 10 new ones.

[Jeebus]

- Heirloom and Inherited don't trigger in the second kingdom, because it is not the start of the game, right?

Inherited is already activated at the start of the game and can not be activated twice.

As I wrote, it's even impossible for it to be included by Divine Wind.

[Jeebus]

The wiki states that if there are no Boons in the Boons deck or discard pile when you are told to receive a Boon, you don't receive one. What if there are fewer than 3 unoccupied Boons at the time Druid's setup occurs?

The answer must be that you set aside what you can and that's it. Druid is worse this game.

[Jeebus]

It's not quite clear to me how Traits work once a pile is removed; do they still affect the pile (which no longer exists); or no?

Trait is a starting condition.
The moment the Kingdom card is no longer available, the Trait condition stops.
Actually the same result as if the Trait Kingdom pile would be empty.

You have several wrong answers, please stop. This is one of them. Traits continue working.

[faust]

It's not quite clear to me how Traits work once a pile is removed; do they still affect the pile (which no longer exists); or no?

Trait is a starting condition.
The moment the Kingdom card is no longer available, the Trait condition stops.
Actually the same result as if the Trait Kingdom pile would be empty.

That is clearly false, the rulebook states:

• Traits continue to affect the cards from a pile even after the pile is empty.

I actually meant the Traits with the gain effect of course, not the Traits which effect the in game Kingdom cards.

This is also not true, you can still gain those cards e.g. from the trash and get the Trait effects.

[Jeebus]

- Events and Landmarks are not affected (neither removed or any new ones added), which also means the set aside card for Way of the Mouse is unaffected.

See my previous reply.
A new Kingdom card can add an Ally if there isn't one already. Other than that you're right.

- "Setup" shall de treated as a trigger of putting something on the table, not as a phase at the start of the game that can be repeated by Divine Wind.  I.e. the setup for the existing Events and Landmarks such as Tax and Defiled Shrine won't be repeated to put tokens on the new piles, and Arena won't get additional tokens on itself.

Setup is done for newly added cards; it's not done for cards that were already in the game. So yes, no repeated setup.

- Traits are removed with the old piles and none of the new piles will have any Traits.

Correct, and Traits can't be added anyway.
CORRECTION: Wrong, Traits will continue working as before. it's not possible to add new Traits.

- Traits for the old piles, continue to apply to those cards after the pile has been removed.

Correct.

- If Young Witch was in the first piles, the Bane card is also removed (since it is a kingdom pile).

Correct, but Bane cards in players' hands still work against Young Witch when played.

- If Young Witch is in the new piles, an 11:th kingdom pile for the Bane cards is also added.

Correct.

- If Black Market was in the first piles, the market deck stays and is still available as it isn't a kingdom pile.
- If Black Market is in the second set of piles, a market deck is set up (and any setup for those cards are also performed).

Correct.

- If Ferryman was in the first piles, its extra pile stays because it isn't in the kingdom.  The extra cards can still be given out if a Ferryman is gained from the Trash.

Correct. Only Kingdom card piles in the Supply are removed, and Ferryman's extra pile is not in the Supply.

- If Trade Route was in the first piles, the coin tokens on Estate, Dutchy, Province, and (if used) Colony stay and can still be moved to the Trade Route mat.
- If the old piles contain Looter(s), the Ruins pile stays as it isn't a kingdom pile.
- If both the old and new piles contain Looter(s), the existing Ruins pile is unaffected, i.e. it isn't refilled.
- The usage of Platinum and Colony is not affected, i.e. they stay if initially used and are never added, regardless of whether the first card in the second set is from Prosperity.
- The usage of Heirlooms and Shelters are not affected (they are neither added nor removed).

All correct.

- If there were Liasons in both the first set and the new piles, the initially selected Ally is kept and no new Favor tokens are given out (except for the 4 from Importer if present in the new piles).
- Only if there were no Liasons in the first set of piles and there are in the second set does everyone gets a Favor, i.e. this is tied to when an Ally is added.

Correct.

- Any "in games using this" effects from the first piles continue to apply regardless of whether any of those cards have been gained.  (Otherwise, when Charlatan is removed, a Curse currently in play would suddenly stop being a Treasure.)

Correct, this is true for Charlatan, Footpad, Shaman and Trade Route.

- It is not possible to return any of the cards from the old piles to its pile.  (Same as for cards from the market deck or non-pile cards like Heirlooms.)

Correct. And the old piles are not empty anymore even if they were before Divine Change.

[dirkdebeule]

It's not quite clear to me how Traits work once a pile is removed; do they still affect the pile (which no longer exists); or no?

Trait is a starting condition.
The moment the Kingdom card is no longer available, the Trait condition stops.
Actually the same result as if the Trait Kingdom pile would be empty.

You have several wrong answers, please stop. This is one of them. Traits continue working.

Please explaine howe a Trait can execute a gain condition to card from a pile that is removed from the game?

[Jeebus]

It's not quite clear to me how Traits work once a pile is removed; do they still affect the pile (which no longer exists); or no?

Trait is a starting condition.
The moment the Kingdom card is no longer available, the Trait condition stops.
Actually the same result as if the Trait Kingdom pile would be empty.

You have several wrong answers, please stop. This is one of them. Traits continue working.

Please explaine howe a Trait can execute a gain condition to card from a pile that is removed from the game?

It can't, you're right about that. But it's not because the Trait condition stops because it's a "starting condition" as you wrote. Traits continue working as before, but of course you can't gain from removed piles so Fawning and Friendly won't do anything.

[dirkdebeule]

It's not quite clear to me how Traits work once a pile is removed; do they still affect the pile (which no longer exists); or no?

Trait is a starting condition.
The moment the Kingdom card is no longer available, the Trait condition stops.
Actually the same result as if the Trait Kingdom pile would be empty.

You have several wrong answers, please stop. This is one of them. Traits continue working.

Please explaine howe a Trait can execute a gain condition to card from a pile that is removed from the game?

It can't, you're right about that. But it's not because the Trait condition stops because it's a "starting condition" as you wrote. Traits continue working as before, but of course you can't gain from removed piles so Fawning and Friendly won't do anything.

Quote
- Traits are removed with the old piles and none of the new piles will have any Traits.
Correct, and Traits can't be added anyway.

Why then have Traits to be removed together with the old pile if cards from that old pile are still in the game?
How do we track? E.g. put a card from the old pile on the Trait as reminder?

[dirkdebeule]

Also, I assume that the intention of Divine Wind is that 10 different piles are selected, but is it possible that a pile from the old kingdom is selected again?

No, remove means put it back to the box and out of play for the rest of the game.

Yes, but back in the box and out of play is also where the new piles come from, and the old ones are put there before the selection.

Which means in your case that theoretically you can draw the old 10 Kingdom cards again as 10 new, which makes the Prophecy completely useless.
I’m quite sure they mean to draw 10 new completely different cards.

[cookiedrugs]

It's not quite clear to me how Traits work once a pile is removed; do they still affect the pile (which no longer exists); or no?

Trait is a starting condition.
The moment the Kingdom card is no longer available, the Trait condition stops.
Actually the same result as if the Trait Kingdom pile would be empty.

You have several wrong answers, please stop. This is one of them. Traits continue working.

Please explaine howe a Trait can execute a gain condition to card from a pile that is removed from the game?

It can't, you're right about that. But it's not because the Trait condition stops because it's a "starting condition" as you wrote. Traits continue working as before, but of course you can't gain from removed piles so Fawning and Friendly won't do anything.

Quote
- Traits are removed with the old piles and none of the new piles will have any Traits.
Correct, and Traits can't be added anyway.

Why then have Traits to be removed together with the old pile if cards from that old pile are still in the game?
How do we track? E.g. put a card from the old pile on the Trait as reminder?

You can't track it. But that doesn't mean the effect stops. You have to remember. Same with e.g. Champion:

Removing Champion from play (such as by playing it with Throne Room and using Way of the Horse for one of these plays) does not end the effect.

[mxdata]

Woah .... Divine Wind is insane. That's gonna be one long FAQ, rivaling Possession!

So, in terms of physical mechanics for in-game play, do you choose a new random kingdom at the time that Divine Wind is triggered? I'm gonna guess that Divine Wind won't be included in any of the suggested kingdoms, if the new kingdom is supposed to be a surprise

How will it work with Adventures tokens? Are those still in effect, or are they removed along with the piles they're attached to? Or is it like Traits which remain in effect? This feels different though, because Adventures tokens are added during the game as opposed to being a starting condition as with Traits. But then also, what about Family of Inventors' tokens?

This'll be interesting with Command cards. Once the kingdom is reset, what those can play will change, possibly greatly changing their power (in an extreme case, imagine buying Band of Misfits from the first kingdom, but then the second kingdom lacks any <$5 Action cards)

Rice is an interesting card. Its value will vary greatly between different kingdoms. On the one extreme, it could end up in a kingdom with no dual-type cards at all, and so the only types are Action and Treasure, making it worth only $2, way too weak for its price. But in other kingdoms, it could easily be extremely valuable

I wonder how often it will happen that Divine Wind will reset a board that was close to three-piling

[faust]

Can a card that is used in any other non-Supply fashion (e.g. Black Market, Way of the Mouse) be selected as a new Kingdom pile for Divine Wind?

[AJD]

Can a card that is used in any other non-Supply fashion (e.g. Black Market, Way of the Mouse) be selected as a new Kingdom pile for Divine Wind?

...and if so, will the new supply pile have only nine cards in it?

[mxdata]

So we've yet to see the following from the teaser:

"3 or 7"
"that doesn't cost"
"trash that many"

Especially interested in what the second of those will be!

[cookiedrugs]

How will it work with Adventures tokens? Are those still in effect, or are they removed along with the piles they're attached to? Or is it like Traits which remain in effect? This feels different though, because Adventures tokens are added during the game as opposed to being a starting condition as with Traits. But then also, what about Family of Inventors' tokens?

I would say it continues to trigger. Each card that adds a bonus token has the bonus text on the card itself. It's not the token that triggers, but the card.

Move your +1 Action token to an Action Supply pile. (When you play a card from that pile, you first get +1 Action.)

[faust]

How will it work with Adventures tokens? Are those still in effect, or are they removed along with the piles they're attached to? Or is it like Traits which remain in effect? This feels different though, because Adventures tokens are added during the game as opposed to being a starting condition as with Traits. But then also, what about Family of Inventors' tokens?

I would say it continues to trigger. Each card that adds a bonus token has the bonus text on the card itself. It's not the token that triggers, but the card.

Move your +1 Action token to an Action Supply pile. (When you play a card from that pile, you first get +1 Action.)

That interpretation would kind of imply that if you move the token to a different pile, you would still get the +1 Action from the old pile.

[Jeebus]

It's not quite clear to me how Traits work once a pile is removed; do they still affect the pile (which no longer exists); or no?

Trait is a starting condition.
The moment the Kingdom card is no longer available, the Trait condition stops.
Actually the same result as if the Trait Kingdom pile would be empty.

You have several wrong answers, please stop. This is one of them. Traits continue working.

Please explaine howe a Trait can execute a gain condition to card from a pile that is removed from the game?

It can't, you're right about that. But it's not because the Trait condition stops because it's a "starting condition" as you wrote. Traits continue working as before, but of course you can't gain from removed piles so Fawning and Friendly won't do anything.

Quote
- Traits are removed with the old piles and none of the new piles will have any Traits.
Correct, and Traits can't be added anyway.

Why then have Traits to be removed together with the old pile if cards from that old pile are still in the game?
How do we track? E.g. put a card from the old pile on the Trait as reminder?

I replied too fast to Flynd, sorry. Traits are not removed.
How do we track - I don't know. I guess putting a card from the old pile on the Trait is best, yeah.

[Jeebus]

So, in terms of physical mechanics for in-game play, do you choose a new random kingdom at the time that Divine Wind is triggered?

Yes.

How will it work with Adventures tokens? Are those still in effect, or are they removed along with the piles they're attached to? Or is it like Traits which remain in effect? This feels different though, because Adventures tokens are added during the game as opposed to being a starting condition as with Traits. But then also, what about Family of Inventors' tokens?

All tokens on removed piles are removed as well, and stop working.
(For Adventures tokens, it's actually the token that has an ability, not the card that puts it there.)