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dz

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Plunder is online
« on: December 18, 2022, 02:11:15 pm »
+9

All of Dominion: Plunder is online (hey it's Monday somewhere)! Here's the other half of the set (the full rulebook is out, but I included the card FAQs in parentheses) https://www.riograndegames.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/DomPlunder.pdf

20 more Kingdom cards:

Cage
$2; Treasure-Duration
Set aside up to 4 cards from your hand face down (on this). The next time you gain a Victory card, trash this, and put the set aside cards into your hand at end of turn.

(The cards go to your hand after drawing your regular hand of 5 cards for next turn. For example you might set aside two Estates and two Coppers on a Cage on an early turn; then on a late turn, buy a Province, trash the Cage, and add the two Estates and two Coppers to your hand at end of turn.)

Grotto
$2; Action-Duration
+1 Action
Set aside up to 4 cards from your hand face down (on this). At the start of your next turn, discard them, then draw as many.

(For example you could set aside 3 cards from your hand, and at the start of your next turn, discard those 3 cards, then draw 3 cards.)

Search
$2; Action-Duration
+$2
The next time a Supply pile empties, trash this and gain a Loot.

(If you Throne Room a Search, Throne Room will stay out with Search until a pile empties, and then you'll trash Search once but gain two Loots (and discard Throne Room that turn).)

Cabin Boy
$4; Action-Duration
+1 Card
+1 Action
At the start of your next turn, choose one: +$2; or trash this to gain a Duration card.

(You can trash a Cabin Boy to gain another Cabin Boy.)

Crucible
$4; Treasure
Trash a card from your hand. +$1 per $1 it costs.

(For example if you trash an Estate, which costs $2, you get +$2. If you trash a card with debt or potion in its cost (from other expansions), you get nothing for those symbols.)

Fortune Hunter
$4; Action
+$2
Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. You may play a Treasure from them. Put the rest back in any order.

(Completely resolve playing the Treasure before putting the other cards back on top; for example if the Treasure is a Figurine, the two cards you draw won't be the other ones you looked at with Fortune Hunter.)

Gondola
$4; Treasure-Duration
Either now or at the start of your next turn, +$2.
[dividing line]
When you gain this, you may play an Action card from your hand.

(When playing Gondola, choose whether to get +$2 immediately, or at the start of your next turn. If you choose "immediately," Gondola will be discarded in the same turn’s Clean-up; if you choose "next turn," Gondola will be discarded that turn. If you play Gondola multiple times, such as with King's Cache, you choose each time whether to get the +$2 now or next turn, and Gondola only stays in play if at least one of the plays was for next turn (in which case the King's Cache also stays in play).)

Harbor Village
$4; Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
After the next Action you play this turn, if it gave you $, +$1.

(This only cares if the Action itself gave you +$1 not if you otherwise got +$1 due to playing it (such as due to Training, from Adventures, or due to receiving Forest's Gift, from Nocturne). It's okay if you no longer have the $ (such as due to Storyteller). +Coffers (from Guilds and Renaissance) is not +$. +$0 doesn't get you the bonus. Using a Way (from Menagerie) to get +$ (e.g. Way of the Sheep) does get you the bonus. If you Throne Room a Harbor Village and then play a Militia, you played Harbor Village, then Harbor Village, then Militia, so you get nothing for the first play of Harbor Village and +$1 for the second play of it.)

Mapmaker
$4; Action-Reaction
Look at the top 4 cards of your deck. Put 2 into your hand and discard the rest.
[dividing line]
When any player gains a Victory card, you may play this from your hand.

(If you have fewer than four cards (after shuffling), you just look at what's left. You may play this when someone (including you) gains a Victory card due to buying it, or some other way. When you play Mapmaker in response to someone gaining a Victory card, you can immediately play another Mapmaker afterwards - even one you just got via the first Mapmaker.)

Maroon
$4; Action
Trash a card from your hand. +2 Cards per type it has (Action, Attack, etc.)

(Types are the words on the bottom banner of cards - Action, Attack, and so on. For example if you trash a Cage with Maroon, you'll draw 4 cards, since it's a Treasure and a Duration, 2 types.)

Crew
$5; Action-Duration
+3 Cards
At the start of your next turn, put this onto your deck.

(Putting this onto your deck isn't optional.)

Cutthroat
$5; Action-Duration-Attack
Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. The next time anyone gains a Treasure costing $5 or more, gain a Loot.

(Loot itself is a Treasure costing $5 or more, so a player gaining one will trigger Cutthroats.)

Enlarge
$5; Action-Duration
Now and at the start of your next turn: trash a card from your hand, and gain one costing up to $2 more.

(Once you've played Enlarge, trashing a card at the start of your next turn is mandatory.)

Figurine
$5; Treasure
+2 Cards
You may discard an Action for +1 Buy and +$1.

(This is a Treasure, and so is played in your Buy phase, but draws cards. This means that usually if it draws you an Action card, that card won't be useful that turn, except that Figurine itself lets you discard one Action card for +1 Buy and +$1.)

Frigate
$5; Action-Duration-Attack
+$3
Until the start of your next turn, each time another player plays an Action card, they discard down to 4 cards in hand afterwards.

(This applies each time another player plays an Action, until your next turn. That includes later on during your turn, if they manage to play an Action then (for example a Stowaway). They completely resolve playing the Action before discarding.)

Longship
$5; Action-Duration
+2 Actions
At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards.

(Playing this gives you +2 Actions then, and +2 Cards at the start of your next turn.)

Pilgrim
$5; Action
+4 Cards
Put a card from your hand onto your deck.

(The card you put on top doesn't have to be one of the 4 you just drew.)

Quartermaster
$5; Action-Duration
At the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game, choose one: gain a card costing up to $4, setting it aside on this; or put a card from this into your hand.

(Quartermaster stays in play for the rest of the game. Each turn you either gain a card and put it on the Quartermaster, or take one of the cards you've already gained with that Quartermaster and put it into your hand. If you play two Quartermasters, they each have their own set of cards. However if you Throne Room a Quartermaster, you just have one set of cards for it, and twice on each of your turns, either add one or take one.)

Silver Mine
$5; Treasure
Gain a Treasure costing less than this to your hand.

(This can gain Silver, but also other Treasures costing less than Silver Mine, when in the Supply: Gondola, Jewelled Egg, and so on.)


Trickster
$5; Action-Attack
Each other player gains a Curse. Once this turn, when you discard a Treasure from play, you may set it aside. Put it into your hand at end of turn.

(This is cumulative; if you play two Tricksters, then you can set aside up to two Treasures you discard from play and put them into your hand at end of turn, after drawing.)

7 more Traits:

Fated
When shuffling, you may look through the cards and reveal Fated cards to put them on top or bottom.

(Each time you shuffle, you can choose to put Fated cards on the top or bottom of your deck, while shuffling the other cards normally. If for example you had five Fated cards, you could put two on top, one on the bottom, and leave the other two to be shuffled in. In games with Fated, you can look through your deck before shuffling, even if you're sure you don't have any Fated cards.)

Friendly
At the start of your Clean-up phase, you may discard a Friendly card to gain a Friendly card.

(You may only discard one Friendly card per turn this way.)!

Inspiring
After playing an Inspiring card on your turn, you may play an Action from your hand that you don't have a copy of in play.

(When you play an Inspiring card, after resolving it, you can play an Action card from your hand, provided that you don't have a copy of that card in play. Duration cards that you played on previous turns that are still in play, are in play; cards that have left play somehow, like a Mining Village (from Intrigue) trashing itself, are not in play. An Inspiring card can sometimes play a different Inspiring card (when Inspiring is on a split pile, like those in Empires and Allies), but can't normally play another copy of itself.)

Nearby
When you gain a Nearby card, +1 Buy.

(Each time you gain a Nearby card, you get +1 Buy.)

Reckless
Follow the instructions of played Reckless cards twice. When discarding one from play, return it to its pile.

(Reckless does two things, at different times. When you play a Reckless card, you follow its instructions an extra time - follow them entirely, then follow them again - and when you discard one from play, you return it to its Supply pile. With Duration cards those may not happen on the same turn. If you skip following the instructions of the card - for example by using a Way (from Menagerie) instead - then you don't follow them an extra time, but still return the card when discarding it from play.)

Rich
When you gain a Rich card, gain a Silver.

(Each time you gain a Rich card, you also gain a Silver.)

Tireless
When you discard a Tireless card from play, set it aside, and put it onto your deck at end of turn.

(This is mandatory. You draw your next hand before putting the card onto your deck.)

8 more Events:

Avoid ($2)
+1 Buy
The next time you shuffle this turn, pick up to 3 cards to put into your discard pile.

(If you don't end up shuffling this turn, this does nothing. If you do shuffle, you first look through the cards and pick up to 3 to put into your discard pile. Shuffle the other cards normally, but don't shuffle those 3 in. Avoid is cumulative; if you Avoid 3 times, you will pick up to 9 cards to not shuffle in. You might leave so many cards in your discard pile that you don't have enough to draw; this does not trigger another shuffle, you just draw what you can.)

Deliver ($2)
+1 Buy
This turn, when you gain a card, set it aside, and put it into your hand at end of turn.

(Buying this more than once doesn't do anything extra. The set aside cards go into your hand after drawing your usual 5 cards.)

Foray ($3)
Discard 3 cards, revealing them. If they have 3 different names, gain a Loot.

(If you didn't have 3 cards to discard, you don't gain a Loot.)

Launch ($3)
Once per turn: Return to your Action phase. +1 Card, +1 Action, and +1 Buy.

(This ends your Buy phase and returns you to your Action phase. This does not cause "start of turn" abilities to repeat; however when your Buy phase happens again after that, "start of Buy phase" abilities can repeat.)

Mirror ($3)
+1 Buy
The next time you gain an Action card this turn, gain a copy of it.

(This is cumulative; if you buy Mirror three times and then buy an Action, you'll gain three extra copies of it.)

Scrounge ($3)
Choose one: trash a card from your hand; or gain an Estate from the trash, and if you did, gain a card costing up to $5.

(You may either trash a card from your hand, or may gain an Estate from the trash. If you gained an Estate, you then also gain a card costing up to $5 from the Supply.)

Looting ($6)
Gain a Loot.

(You simply gain a Loot.)

Invasion ($10)
You may play an Attack from your hand. Gain a Duchy. Gain an Action onto your deck. Gain a Loot; play it.

(You do the four things in that order. Playing an Attack card is optional; the rest are mandatory.)

Phew, 35 cards is a lot. Enjoy!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2022, 03:51:37 am by dz »
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J Reggie

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2022, 02:50:48 pm »
+1

Wow, Frigate seems really mean! But I thought that about Warlord and it turned out not to be so bad, so I guess we'll see.

It's always nice to have more Villa variants.

allanfieldhouse

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2022, 03:36:49 pm »
+3

It's always nice to have more Villa variants.

Yeah, Launch looks great! I love that it doesn't run out late-game like the other Villa-effects do. Once per turn seems like a reasonable limitation to compensate.
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mxdata

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2022, 03:42:25 pm »
0

Grotto will be really useful when you start Greening, and also early in the game before you've gotten rid of your junk. So it's effectively a kind of Duration draw that depends on how much junk you have

Search could be interesting in games with Experiment, since it could activate multiple times from the same pile. But also, it's interesting that everyone with one or more in-play Searches will benefit simultaneously from the emptying!

Crucible seems very similar to Salvager, but being a Treasure, it seems like most games it'll be stronger than Salvager, even with the lack of +buy (unless there's no other +buy in the kingdom). The only other downside that I see relative to Salvager is that, being a Treasure, it cannot, in most kingdoms, be played before any cost-reduction, unlike Salvager

Crew seems like it will be extremely powerful, provided you have enough +Actions

I can't decide whether Figurine looks like it'll be strong or weak. I guess it depends a lot on the type of kingdom. In Treasureless engines, it'll be pretty useless, but with Big Money it would probably be a good card

I don't understand why a Throned Quartermaster only has one set of cards. Why doesn't it work like a Throned Archive, which keeps two sets of cards?

Reckless is an interesting one. Depending on the card that gets it, it could either be very good or very bad. Reckless King's Court would probably be overall a major nerf, but a Reckless Experiment would be absurdly powerful - a net +2 Actions +4 Cards, and no drawback since it would've gone back to its pile anyways! Scheme would allow you to bypass that return-to-Supply part, right?
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mxdata

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2022, 03:43:53 pm »
+1

It's always nice to have more Villa variants.

Yeah, Launch looks great! I love that it doesn't run out late-game like the other Villa-effects do. Once per turn seems like a reasonable limitation to compensate.

It will work really nicely with Landing Party - basically spend $3 to put your Landing Party/Parties back onto your deck - potentially letting you play the same Landing Party twice in a single turn!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2022, 06:52:35 pm by mxdata »
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mxdata

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2022, 03:45:10 pm »
0

Wow, Frigate seems really mean! But I thought that about Warlord and it turned out not to be so bad, so I guess we'll see.

It's always nice to have more Villa variants.

Yeah, Frigate seems like it'll be really brutal. And it'll be interesting with certain Reactions like Caravan Guard or Black Cat
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mxdata

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2022, 03:50:59 pm »
+2

I'm surprised Quartermaster doesn't have a non-Victory clause. You could easily accumulate cheap alt-Victory cards - and with Canal or Bridge Troll (or something like a Royal Galley + Highway) you can even accumulate Duchies on it
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2022, 06:18:41 pm »
0

Very cool stuff overall. Kinda surprised there is no Trait that gives +Buy on play, but oh well.

Also worth noting that with Gondola, the "enhanced Silvers shouldn't cost $4" rule is finally where it belongs: in the trash.
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AJD

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2022, 06:40:20 pm »
0

It's always nice to have more Villa variants.

Yeah, Launch looks great! I love that it doesn't run out late-game like the other Villa-effects do. Once per turn seems like a reasonable limitation to compensate.

It will work really nicely with Landing Party - basically spend $3 to put your Landing Party/Parties back onto your deck - potentially letting you play the same Landing Party twice in a single turn!

...I don't follow?
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Violet CLM

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2022, 06:46:46 pm »
0

Cage is not even indirectly giving you money, is it?
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mxdata

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2022, 06:50:19 pm »
0

It's always nice to have more Villa variants.

Yeah, Launch looks great! I love that it doesn't run out late-game like the other Villa-effects do. Once per turn seems like a reasonable limitation to compensate.

It will work really nicely with Landing Party - basically spend $3 to put your Landing Party/Parties back onto your deck - potentially letting you play the same Landing Party twice in a single turn!

...I don't follow?
Oh, wait, yeah, I made a mistake there. You couldn't play Landing Party twice in the same turn that way, it would only allow you to topdeck a previous turn's Landing Party
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mxdata

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2022, 06:52:05 pm »
0

Cage is not even indirectly giving you money, is it?

If you set aside Treasure cards with Cage, it would give them back to you when you gain a Victory card (or rather, on the turn after you gain the Victory card). It does seem like a very niche card though, hard to see what the most effective use would be
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2022, 07:32:33 pm »
0

One shot Haven on steroids, the 4 cards don't come back until you start greening and they come back to hand just like Haven ready to be handled in some way. It doesn't let you line things up purposely for a future turn the way Haven does, or at least it's far less likely to be useful that way, but the other basic use of Haven is to make junk/victory/stop cards not take up space in your shuffle. Cage is even better at that and a terminal silver that'll then kindly trash itself.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2022, 07:44:47 pm »
+1

Cage sounds like Chapel+. For engine building, it sounds insane. Chapel, except it trashes itself also, and keeps the Estate points in your deck. You might want to get 2, but maybe not… Chapel leaves you with 1 dead card, while Cage leaves you with 3. 3 dead cards might not be worth the opportunity cost of another. Unless you happen to end up with an extra $2 and a buy of course. 
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2022, 08:01:58 pm »
0

Edit: woah I completely misread this card's text description here, nm but chapel is still better

--
It's a one shot and the cards come back at some point. That's not chapel+, that's chapel-minus-minus , though it's a terminal silver which helps replace itself.

A one-shot actual-chapel-trasher (cards not coming back) would be interesting, certainly stronger than chapel if it was also a terminal silver, but this isn't that because well it doesn't trash.

There's scenarios where you want to keep your starting estates and just not have them mug up your deck until you're ready to green, in that scenario the set aside not trashed nature can be a benefit, but it's far from typical.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2022, 11:47:00 pm by Gherald »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2022, 08:33:03 pm »
+1

Wait, what do you mean terminal silver? Isn’t it a non-terminal that doesn’t give money?
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2022, 08:40:39 pm »
0

Cage is not even indirectly giving you money, is it?

If you set aside Treasure cards with Cage, it would give them back to you when you gain a Victory card (or rather, on the turn after you gain the Victory card). It does seem like a very niche card though, hard to see what the most effective use would be

Here's the most effective use:

Step 1: see if Chapel, Donate or Cathedral is in the kingdom
Step 2: if not, open Cage
Step 3: see what else is in the kingdom
Step 4: set all the junk aside as soon as you draw Cage
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2022, 09:10:50 pm »
+3

I don't understand why a Throned Quartermaster only has one set of cards. Why doesn't it work like a Throned Archive, which keeps two sets of cards?

Quartermaster specifies where cards go (onto it) and where they come from (on it) with it functioning like a miniature Native Village mat.

Meanwhile Archive has each set of three set aside face down with no specified position - the putting them into hand works by directly referencing the fact that they've been set aside.

So when quartermaster's ability looks for "what cards are on me" it can find any of them, while when Archive's ability looks for "what cards were set aside with this ability" it can only find those set aside with that specific use of that ability.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2022, 01:10:26 am »
+1

Also worth noting that with Gondola, the "enhanced Silvers shouldn't cost $4" rule is finally where it belongs: in the trash.
Didn't Patron break it?
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2022, 01:30:48 am »
0

Also worth noting that with Gondola, the "enhanced Silvers shouldn't cost $4" rule is finally where it belongs: in the trash.
Didn't Patron break it?

No, there's enough differences between Actions and Treasures in general that an action that provides +1 action can't be automatically compared to a treasure. Among other things, you can draw Patron dead with something like Smithy.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2022, 01:33:15 am »
+1

Also worth noting that with Gondola, the "enhanced Silvers shouldn't cost $4" rule is finally where it belongs: in the trash.

Once again, Donald gets his card ideas from looking at the variants forum. NOT from looking at fan cards, but from looking at responses to fan cards, where people say things like "hey, you shouldn't make a Silver+ that costs $4 because it's a bad idea" or "cards shouldn't cost exactly ", and then he just goes "Oh yeah?"
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2022, 04:58:21 am »
0

Also worth noting that with Gondola, the "enhanced Silvers shouldn't cost $4" rule is finally where it belongs: in the trash.
Didn't Patron break it?

No, there's enough differences between Actions and Treasures in general that an action that provides +1 action can't be automatically compared to a treasure. Among other things, you can draw Patron dead with something like Smithy.
No.
Actions are on average stronger than their Treasure counterpart. See the long discussion about Candlestick Maker vs. Ducat. So Patron, being better than its hypothetical Treasure counterpart, did break that design rule.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2022, 06:06:42 am »
0

Also worth noting that with Gondola, the "enhanced Silvers shouldn't cost $4" rule is finally where it belongs: in the trash.
Didn't Patron break it?

No, there's enough differences between Actions and Treasures in general that an action that provides +1 action can't be automatically compared to a treasure. Among other things, you can draw Patron dead with something like Smithy.
No.
Actions are on average stronger than their Treasure counterpart. See the long discussion about Candlestick Maker vs. Ducat. So Patron, being better than its hypothetical Treasure counterpart, did break that design rule.

Bridge has been far stronger than Silver forever.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2022, 06:18:36 am »
+4

Also worth noting that with Gondola, the "enhanced Silvers shouldn't cost $4" rule is finally where it belongs: in the trash.

Once again, Donald gets his card ideas from looking at the variants forum. NOT from looking at fan cards, but from looking at responses to fan cards, where people say things like "hey, you shouldn't make a Silver+ that costs $4 because it's a bad idea" or "cards shouldn't cost exactly ", and then he just goes "Oh yeah?"
It was never ever a been a fan notion that Silver with a bonus shall not be priced at $4 but Donald’s old design rule.
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Ydobon

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2022, 10:46:19 am »
+3

Reckless Loops are back ;D More precisely loops of two Reckless Bands of Misfits together with a Necromancer and a Lish trashing Sentinel. Probably Necromancer should become a Command card after all? Anyway, here is a vanilla version of the loop. Feel free to add adventure tokens or find a more efficient way to trash from your discard pile to have the loop produce some benefit.

Kingdom: Reckless Band of Misfits, Necromancer, Lich, Sentinel

Trash: BoM (face up)
Your Deck: Lich + BoM

You play: Necromancer
→ Necromancer plays BoM
  [cards in trash now: BoM (face down)]
  → BoM plays Sentinel
    → Sentinel trashes Lich and BoM
      → Lich discards itself and gains the face down BoM from the trash
    [cards in trash now: BoM (face up)]
    [cards in discard now: Lich + BoM]
    [draw pile is empty]
  → BoM (Reckless) plays Necromancer
    → Necromancer plays BoM and loops.
      → BoM plays Sentinel
        → Sentinel trashes Lich and BoM
          → Lich discards itself and gains the face down BoM from the trash
      → BoM (Reckless) plays Necromancer
        → Necromancer plays BoM and loops again.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2022, 10:59:09 am »
0

Also worth noting that with Gondola, the "enhanced Silvers shouldn't cost $4" rule is finally where it belongs: in the trash.

Once again, Donald gets his card ideas from looking at the variants forum. NOT from looking at fan cards, but from looking at responses to fan cards, where people say things like "hey, you shouldn't make a Silver+ that costs $4 because it's a bad idea" or "cards shouldn't cost exactly ", and then he just goes "Oh yeah?"
It was never ever a been a fan notion that Silver with a bonus shall not be priced at $4 but Donald’s old design rule.

I know, but this was true with a lot of the types of things I'm talking about. Donald laid-forth a principle, and then people repeated it in response to fan cards a bunch, and then Donald eventually designed cards that changed the principle.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2022, 11:00:28 am »
+1

Also worth noting that with Gondola, the "enhanced Silvers shouldn't cost $4" rule is finally where it belongs: in the trash.
Didn't Patron break it?

No, there's enough differences between Actions and Treasures in general that an action that provides +1 action can't be automatically compared to a treasure. Among other things, you can draw Patron dead with something like Smithy.
No.
Actions are on average stronger than their Treasure counterpart. See the long discussion about Candlestick Maker vs. Ducat. So Patron, being better than its hypothetical Treasure counterpart, did break that design rule.

It doesn't matter that Actions are on average stronger; the point is that they're different and interact with different things.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2022, 11:07:50 am »
+2

"Nearby" might the best groan-worthy pun name for a card-shaped thing in Dominion.

("Doubloons" isn't bad either.)
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2022, 11:27:10 am »
+2

It's interesting that in games with Looting, you just don't ever buy Gold. Technically in games with Delve you don't ever buy Silver either, but at least there you still get Silver.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2022, 11:33:05 am »
0

It's interesting that in games with Looting, you just don't ever buy Gold.
Well, maybe sometimes there is no Loots left, or there are only Endless Chalices left.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2022, 11:37:53 am »
+2

It's interesting that in games with Looting, you just don't ever buy Gold.
Well, maybe sometimes there is no Loots left, or there are only Endless Chalices left.

And, you know, sometimes you have Encampments or Legionaries or whatever.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2022, 12:07:34 pm »
+2

I should have known better than to make a general rule sound like something that would always be true. I mean of course there's edge cases and exceptions; wouldn't be Dominion otherwise.
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Ydobon

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2022, 12:13:04 pm »
0

Edit: The following would happen, if Reckless would replay cards instead of following their instructions twice.
Misinterpreted Reckless Inventors with Way of the Horse ⇒ ∞ cost reduction :o

Your Deck: empty
Your Hand: Inventor

As long as you wish, repeat the following
Play Inventor
→ gain Inventor
→ play Inventor again (Reckless)
  → use Way of the Horse
    → draw Inventor
    → return Inventor to its pile
« Last Edit: December 19, 2022, 01:31:14 pm by Ydobon »
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2022, 12:30:36 pm »
+1

Reckless doesn't allow you to use a Way for the repetition of a card, fortunately.
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Ydobon

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2022, 01:25:09 pm »
+1

Reckless doesn't allow you to use a Way for the repetition of a card, fortunately.

Oh, yes. Thanks AJD. I fixed the loop and put in a new topic: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21572
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mathdude

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2022, 01:48:01 pm »
0

It's interesting that in games with Looting, you just don't ever buy Gold.
Well, maybe sometimes there is no Loots left, or there are only Endless Chalices left.

Or Jeweled Egg is the only Loot-giver with no trashing (or poor trashing).

Or Search, but it's taking too long to empty a pile.

With Cutthroat, you may buy the odd Gold to activate the cards and get them back in your deck, if others aren't buying them for you.

And I'm sure there are other instances too.  But these are just a few I found.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2022, 02:14:26 pm »
+4

Or Jeweled Egg is the only Loot-giver with no trashing (or poor trashing).
I'm fairly certain they were talking about Looting, the event, not just any old way of gaining Loot.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2022, 10:56:34 pm »
0

Or Jeweled Egg is the only Loot-giver with no trashing (or poor trashing).
I'm fairly certain they were talking about Looting, the event, not just any old way of gaining Loot.

That definitely makes sense!
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2022, 06:18:47 am »
+1

It's interesting that in games with Looting, you just don't ever buy Gold. Technically in games with Delve you don't ever buy Silver either, but at least there you still get Silver.

It's similar to Wedding, which also makes buying a Gold practically obsolete (paying 1 debt extra for 1 VP is a real bargain) , but Wedding does still gain the Gold.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 06:29:00 am by Holger »
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2022, 06:27:28 am »
+1

It's interesting that in games with Looting, you just don't ever buy Gold.
Well, maybe sometimes there is no Loots left, or there are only Endless Chalices left.

Hammer can also be worse than Gold when you don't want any (more) $4- cards.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2022, 10:45:11 pm »
+3

I think it's funny how oxymorons can be created from the Traits. Pious Villain, Nearby Distant Lands.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2022, 01:37:03 am »
+3

I think it's funny how oxymorons can be created from the Traits. Pious Villain, Nearby Distant Lands.
Pious Graverobber
Friendly Torturer   
Rich Poor House   
Cheap Treasury
Reckless Tactician
Patient Chariot Race
Fawning Overlord
Inherited Hireling
Shy Recruiter
Hasty Sculptor
Tireless Wine Merchant
Inspiring Scout
I'm not sure what the closest thing to the opposite of "Fated" would be...

At least Pious Den of Sin or Pious Devil's Workshop is impossible, but at the cost of also missing a Pious Monastery.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 01:41:54 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2022, 05:58:08 am »
+1

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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2022, 06:25:34 am »
0

 It also has some highly valueable life lessons. Namely the best Crew is a Reckless Crew. And the best Landing Party is a Reckless Landing Party. EDIT: And a Captain also really likes Reckless stuff.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 06:28:34 am by grrgrrgrr »
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2022, 06:33:16 am »
0

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2022, 06:32:55 am »
0

I think the costs of the cards in this set surprised me more than any other set. Very interested in secret histories around playtesting.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2022, 06:47:58 am »
0

I think it's funny how oxymorons can be created from the Traits. Pious Villain, Nearby Distant Lands.
Pious Graverobber
Friendly Torturer   
Rich Poor House   
Cheap Treasury
Reckless Tactician
Patient Chariot Race
Fawning Overlord
Inherited Hireling
Shy Recruiter
Hasty Sculptor
Tireless Wine Merchant
Inspiring Scout
I'm not sure what the closest thing to the opposite of "Fated" would be...

At least Pious Den of Sin or Pious Devil's Workshop is impossible, but at the cost of also missing a Pious Monastery.


The Reckless Tactician is worse than a regular Tactician though. They get the same job done, but they die after doing it once.

If people see a reminder that the Poor House is Rich, they take money away from it.

There are Ways to make a so called Tireless Wine Merchant live up to their name, but normally they're the same as usual.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2022, 12:55:32 am »
0

I think it's funny how oxymorons can be created from the Traits. Pious Villain, Nearby Distant Lands.

I'm not sure what the closest thing to the opposite of "Fated" would be...



It depends on which meaning of "fated" you use.  This page has a pretty exhaustive list

https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the-opposite-of/fate.html
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2022, 01:53:37 pm »
0

Cage is not even indirectly giving you money, is it?

I too was confused how this card 'qualified' as a Treasure?  I like the mechanics of the card the the 'Treasure' type is confusing, as it seemed more like an Action - Duration Type
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2022, 02:01:24 pm »
0

Cage is not even indirectly giving you money, is it?

I too was confused how this card 'qualified' as a Treasure?  I like the mechanics of the card the the 'Treasure' type is confusing, as it seemed more like an Action - Duration Type
While most Treasures do produce Coins, Horn of Plenty, War Chest, Sunken Treasure and Tools are gainers and plenty of other Treasures do not unconditionally produce Coins. For example Tiara and King's Cache are Thrones can theoretically fail to yield Coins and Crown is a Throne that fatils to do so quite often.

So the notion that all Treasures should somehow always produce Coins is pretty weird given that this has not been the case for over 10 years.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2022, 02:27:04 pm »
+1

Cage is not even indirectly giving you money, is it?

I too was confused how this card 'qualified' as a Treasure?  I like the mechanics of the card the the 'Treasure' type is confusing, as it seemed more like an Action - Duration Type
While most Treasures do produce Coins, Horn of Plenty, War Chest, Sunken Treasure and Tools are gainers and plenty of other Treasures do not unconditionally produce Coins. For example Tiara and King's Cache are Thrones can theoretically fail to yield Coins and Crown is a Throne that fatils to do so quite often.

So the notion that all Treasures should somehow always produce Coins is pretty weird given that this has not been the case for over 10 years.

Yeah, but those have specific good reasons why they need to be a Treasure. Sunken Treasure becomes way more powerful if it were an Action, and you could just play it at the start of your turn. Horn of Plenty and Tools could be a Night if that was an option, but they are weaker if you can't play them after playing Treasures. Tiara and King's Cache are obvious; they might not produce any , but their whole thing is copying other treasures.

War Chest is more like Cage; a bit of a stretch required to say that it makes sense as a Treasure, although the very fact that it gains cards does make it feel a bit more like buying something.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 02:28:20 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2022, 02:41:36 pm »
+2

It is not as if Actions are what you should always and above all do while Treasures are some kind of niche card category that is only done when it is absolutely mechanically necessary. Cage could very well be a non-terminal Action but, big surprise, that non-terminal is implemented as a Treasure in an expansion with a heavy focus on Treasures.

Treasures can do whatever the designer wants them to do. And while no producing Coins is unusual, as witnessed by the huge zero on the first version of Horn of Plenty, it is now fairly common and in my opinion the game is better due to this increasing design flexibility concerning the yellow stuff.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2022, 10:13:59 pm »
0

It is not as if Actions are what you should always and above all do while Treasures are some kind of niche card category that is only done when it is absolutely mechanically necessary. Cage could very well be a non-terminal Action but, big surprise, that non-terminal is implemented as a Treasure in an expansion with a heavy focus on Treasures.

Treasures can do whatever the designer wants them to do. And while no producing Coins is unusual, as witnessed by the huge zero on the first version of Horn of Plenty, it is now fairly common and in my opinion the game is better due to this increasing design flexibility concerning the yellow stuff.

That's all true, but it's also true that Cage is the first treasure I know of where the reason that it's a treasure instead of an action isn't clear, except maybe War Chest. The question has nothing to do with the fact that it produces . It's that the reason for it being a treasure is unclear.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2022, 02:09:44 am »
0

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2022, 10:27:19 am »
+3

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.

You make it sound like a complete coincidence that every other card that works the same as an action or a treasure has been an action so far. Clearly actions are some sort of default; or at least they always have been until now.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2022, 01:40:48 pm »
+6

While most Treasures do produce Coins, Horn of Plenty, War Chest, Sunken Treasure and Tools are gainers and plenty of other Treasures do not unconditionally produce Coins. For example Tiara and King's Cache are Thrones can theoretically fail to yield Coins and Crown is a Throne that fatils to do so quite often.

So the notion that all Treasures should somehow always produce Coins is pretty weird given that this has not been the case for over 10 years.

As far as I can tell, you're the only one who has mentioned the notion that treasures should always produce coins. That seems to be an assumption you made upon hearing people wonder why Cage is a treasure; "They must be confused that it's not making any coins." It's also kind of a weird assumption since, as you mentioned, it's not exactly a new thing for treasures to not make coins; certainly other people have noticed this.

It's more likely that people were noticing that Cage is (I think) the first treasure (including all the Loots we just got) that cannot (in any obvious way) contribute to gaining you cards. Most treasures help you gain cards by making coins (or potion) you can spend to buy stuff. The first set of cards you mentioned are, as you noted, gainers, so they do this directly. The second set can be used for magnifying other treasures, so they help in whatever way the other treasures do. The fact that some treasures (Throne, Scepter) can be used for other things is irrelevant; the point is that Cage breaks the pattern because it cannot.

At least, that's the reason I was wondering why Cage was a treasure.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2022, 02:43:58 pm »
0

While most Treasures do produce Coins, Horn of Plenty, War Chest, Sunken Treasure and Tools are gainers and plenty of other Treasures do not unconditionally produce Coins. For example Tiara and King's Cache are Thrones can theoretically fail to yield Coins and Crown is a Throne that fatils to do so quite often.

So the notion that all Treasures should somehow always produce Coins is pretty weird given that this has not been the case for over 10 years.

As far as I can tell, you're the only one who has mentioned the notion that treasures should always produce coins. That seems to be an assumption you made upon hearing people wonder why Cage is a treasure; "They must be confused that it's not making any coins." It's also kind of a weird assumption since, as you mentioned, it's not exactly a new thing for treasures to not make coins; certainly other people have noticed this.
Nope. I responded to a post which responded to this post:

Cage is not even indirectly giving you money, is it?

You can of course read „indirectly giving money“ as gaining … but that is a fetch given that you could also read thinning as increasing the average Coin yield of your deck or drawing cards as a way to play more Coin producing stuff or whatever.
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segura

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2022, 02:55:26 pm »
0

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.

You make it sound like a complete coincidence that every other card that works the same as an action or a treasure has been an action so far. Clearly actions are some sort of default; or at least they always have been until now.
Ain’t just me dude. The designer himself said in the other thread that there was no deeper meaning, no fine-tuning or whatever behind converting an Action into a Treasure. Also pure coincidence that Shaman did not end up as a Treasure.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2022, 03:08:27 pm »
0

Nope. I responded to a post which responded to this post:

Cage is not even indirectly giving you money, is it?

You can of course read „indirectly giving money“ as gaining … but that is a fetch given that you could also read thinning as increasing the average Coin yield of your deck or drawing cards as a way to play more Coin producing stuff or whatever.

Fair enough. But I did, in fact, assume "indirectly giving money" included gaining. Maybe because that interpretation causes the question to make sense.

EDIT: Or maybe I should say because that interpretation matched the question I already had.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2022, 03:13:54 pm by chipperMDW »
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Holger

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2022, 04:31:18 pm »
0

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.

You make it sound like a complete coincidence that every other card that works the same as an action or a treasure has been an action so far. Clearly actions are some sort of default; or at least they always have been until now.
Ain’t just me dude. The designer himself said in the other thread that there was no deeper meaning, no fine-tuning or whatever behind converting an Action into a Treasure. Also pure coincidence that Shaman did not end up as a Treasure.

Has he said that? Previously Donald clearly stated that only specific cards should be Treasures:
Treasures should make money; I made an exception for a card that wanted to be played in the buy phase. They should feel like treasures - they make money, or, there's Horn of Plenty again, gain cards.
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J Reggie

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2022, 04:40:18 pm »
+3

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.

You make it sound like a complete coincidence that every other card that works the same as an action or a treasure has been an action so far. Clearly actions are some sort of default; or at least they always have been until now.
Ain’t just me dude. The designer himself said in the other thread that there was no deeper meaning, no fine-tuning or whatever behind converting an Action into a Treasure. Also pure coincidence that Shaman did not end up as a Treasure.

Has he said that? Previously Donald clearly stated that only specific cards should be Treasures:
Treasures should make money; I made an exception for a card that wanted to be played in the buy phase. They should feel like treasures - they make money, or, there's Horn of Plenty again, gain cards.

In the same post, he says that treasure-attacks, treasure-durations, and action-treasures probably aren't worth doing. Things have changed since 2014.

segura

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2022, 05:35:31 pm »
+1

That was my precisely my point. Actions are not the „standard“ while Treasures are some weird funky edge case that need any rationale. Especially not in an expansion with a lot of Treasures.

You make it sound like a complete coincidence that every other card that works the same as an action or a treasure has been an action so far. Clearly actions are some sort of default; or at least they always have been until now.
Ain’t just me dude. The designer himself said in the other thread that there was no deeper meaning, no fine-tuning or whatever behind converting an Action into a Treasure. Also pure coincidence that Shaman did not end up as a Treasure.

Has he said that? Previously Donald clearly stated that only specific cards should be Treasures:
Treasures should make money; I made an exception for a card that wanted to be played in the buy phase. They should feel like treasures - they make money, or, there's Horn of Plenty again, gain cards.
Poster asked DXV about why Cage is a Treasure, DXV answered: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg899190#msg899190

Short version: Cage is a Treasure just because. Shaman could be a Treasure just because. There are of course differences between Actions and Treasures, as witnessed by that tedious discussion about Candlestick Maker and Ducat, but Shaman would be virtually the same if it were a Copper. It being a Treasure or Action is utterly trivial as the beauty of that very design does not hinge on which type it has.
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Donald X.

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2022, 01:18:09 pm »
+2

In the same post, he says that treasure-attacks, treasure-durations, and action-treasures probably aren't worth doing. Things have changed since 2014.
15 expansions! At some point you make a Treasure that doesn't make $ or gain a card.

There might have been more of that, but at some point some external playtesters complained about it. And changing Grotto to an Action also meant making it less similar to Cage, which was great.

The final version of Shaman was one of the last changes in the set. If it had been around for a longer period, it probably would have turned into a Treasure. It's not an Action "just because"; it was just not something I could endlessly consider while endlessly considering everything else I endlessly considered, and there wasn't much time for me to notice I could make that change.
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Imrahil3

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2022, 02:42:59 pm »
0

To add to the debate, there’s also the fact that Treasures have historically been, well, Treasure. They were generally precious metals, gems, jewelry, or other generally valuable items or money-alternatives. Cage and Gondola are a bit of a stretch in my mind for that reason, but then I thought about it more and Quarry has been around forever and doesn’t really meet the definition above either.

Anyways, the Treasures are cool. Getting to do a lot of Action-type things in your Buy phase feels great. Just played a game where I bought nothing but Silver Mines, King’s Cache and Crucible, and it was wild.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2023, 07:44:38 pm »
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big money is back! is there still wandering winder? he was always good at realizing when you should just play money.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2023, 08:17:27 pm »
+1

is there still wandering winder? he was always good at realizing when you should just play money.

Seems like it's been quite a while since any of us have been WanderingWinder here.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2023, 09:22:23 pm »
0

is there still wandering winder? he was always good at realizing when you should just play money.

Seems like it's been quite a while since any of us have been WanderingWinder here.

He was a huge fan of Silk Road and on boards featuring that card, he was completely unbeatable. Now that card is gone ...
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AJD

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2023, 05:44:58 pm »
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Reckless doesn't allow you to use a Way for the repetition of a card, fortunately.

Shuffle.it has been allowing this, though! I assume that's a bug?
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2023, 12:05:30 am »
+1

To add to the debate, there’s also the fact that Treasures have historically been, well, Treasure. They were generally precious metals, gems, jewelry, or other generally valuable items or money-alternatives. Cage and Gondola are a bit of a stretch in my mind for that reason, but then I thought about it more and Quarry has been around forever and doesn’t really meet the definition above either.



many quarries produce both metal ores and mineral treasures or gems.
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Re: Plunder is online
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2023, 04:12:18 am »
+1

To add to the debate, there’s also the fact that Treasures have historically been, well, Treasure. They were generally precious metals, gems, jewelry, or other generally valuable items or money-alternatives. Cage and Gondola are a bit of a stretch in my mind for that reason, but then I thought about it more and Quarry has been around forever and doesn’t really meet the definition above either.
Also Harem. Though I know we'd all rather forget about Harem.
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