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[dbclick]

The rule book for Seaside Second Edition dropped and the recommended sets show new Hinterlands cards:

https://www.riograndegames.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Seaside2nd.pdf

The new cards known as of now are named as follows:

• Cauldron
• Berserker
• Guard Dog
• Nomads
• Souk
• Wheelwright

AFAIK, we don't have any details yet as to what these do or what cards they replace.

Assuming the 9 cards allowable for replacements in Update packs, then there are only up to 3 other cards that we don't know about up to this point. Obviously we don't know when these drop, but I would assume soon since the set is likely finalized.

[chipperMDW]

I suppose that also means that we have a good idea of some cards that are not leaving: Cartographer, Crossroads, Farmland, and Stables.

[Donald X.]

Hinterlands 2E will follow a few weeks or so after Prosperity 2E. I don't have a more precise expectation yet. It will have 9 new cards and an update pack with them, like Seaside and Prosperity.

It seemed fun to let some people find out from the Seaside 2E rulebook.

[Gubump]

Hinterlands 2E will follow a few weeks or so after Prosperity 2E. I don't have a more precise expectation yet. It will have 9 new cards and an update pack with them, like Seaside and Prosperity.

It seemed fun to let some people find out from the Seaside 2E rulebook.

Do you have plans for when Hinterlands 2E will be previewed yet?

[Holger]

9 new cards will likely mean that 9 existing cards will be removed, as Hinterlands 1E only has 8 blanks.

In principle two VP cards could be replaced by Actions/Treasures to make room for a 27th card. But with Farmland staying this seems very unlikely - I don't expect Tunnel and Silk Road to both leave.
Or Cache could become an Event, but that would mean "retroactively" introducing an extra mechanics just for one "card".

[grrgrrgrr]

I'm also curious to what the fate of Haggler will be when its set will be revisited. That card has while-in-play effect that really shouldn't be throneable (though I also believed that with Merchant Guild). I kinda suspect that this card will get a stronger on-play effect, but only gains one extra card per play.

Also, when is Highway getting the throneable glory it deserves?

It seems that this mystery is going to be solved soon :p

[Jack Rudd]

I suppose there is the option of bringing in eight Events, one of them a reskinning of Cache. Not very likely, I'll admit, but possible.

[grrgrrgrr]

Alright, so let's predict the 9 drops, from most likely to least likely. It went pretty well for Prosperity, so lemme try this again.

1. Cache: Very weak and very outdated by design. If the community really cannot live without this card, I'm pretty sure there will be an Event that says "Gain a Gold and 2 Coppers."
2. Duchess: The concept of making Duchies come with a bonus is neat and all, but I'm pretty sure there are better ways to accomplish this than with a terminal Silver whose extra effect is more beneficial to you than your opponent.
3. Noble Brigand: It is horribly weak; even worse than Navigator according to the last Qvist rankings. The fact that it only steals Gold or Silver was originally meant to ensure it's not 100% better than Thief, but nowadays makes the card just look stupid. And if this card would stay, it'd probably need errata. As the errata-free rewording it got is quite ambiguous.
4. Mandarin: This card has the most shenanigan-heavy on-gain effect ever, and is unlikely to ever be beaten in this regard. This doesn't mean much, however, as its in-game usage is almost as narrow as Counting House. Being a terminal Gold with a mostly-detrimental onplay-effect makes it look rather sucky comparing to stuff like Treasurer, and the on-gain effect is no enough to make up for that.
5. Ill-gotten gains: This is not a poorly designed card by any means, but it is still quite obvious that it's an unwanted stepchild of the designing team. You either ignore this card, or ignore the rest of the kingdom. Which is undesired, even when it is usually not overly obvious which strategy is the best choice. (It is also considered to be too complicated, to which I disagree)
6. Margrave: This card pretty obnoxious, and is kinda in the same boat as the outtake-Attacks from Seaside and Prosperity. It is pretty annoying when your opponent has a 5/2 opening and is continuously able to attack you (thanks to the fast cycling this card provides). It also undeservingly gives +Buy, and Seaside 2E kinda prove that this is not the stuff that is going to be errata'd out.
7. Trader: Probably a textbook case of cool on paper but poor in practice. It is almost always outclassed as a trasher and against junking Attacks, hand-reactions aren't so great in general. In the end, it exclusively stands out as a Silver gainer, to which it compares pretty unfavorably to Groom.
8. Oracle: This card is underpowered and brings very little to the table that other sources of draw don't. The attacking part makes it slow to resolve, too. Didn't Donald X say that he hates this card?
9. Haggler: The development team has assigned themselves the mission to phase out the use of "while in play" and "when you buy". Among the cards that still exist, Haggler is the biggest roadblock by far - its effect shouldn't be Throneable and it obviously must be restricted to buying. My hypothesis is that this will be replaced by a variant that is restricted to a singular gain per play.

My predictions on the errata are:
Highway: Cost reduction is part of the on-play effect of the card.
Farmlands: Only the first Farmland you gain in a turn gets the Remodel effect.
Fool's Gold: Looses the Reaction part.

[spineflu]

Alright, so let's predict the 9 drops, from most likely to least likely. It went pretty well for Prosperity, so lemme try this again.

1. Cache: Very weak and very outdated by design. If the community really cannot live without this card, I'm pretty sure there will be an Event that says "Gain a Gold and 2 Coppers."
2. Duchess: The concept of making Duchies come with a bonus is neat and all, but I'm pretty sure there are better ways to accomplish this than with a terminal Silver whose extra effect is more beneficial to you than your opponent.
3. Noble Brigand: It is horribly weak; even worse than Navigator according to the last Qvist rankings. The fact that it only steals Gold or Silver was originally meant to ensure it's not 100% better than Thief, but nowadays makes the card just look stupid. And if this card would stay, it'd probably need errata. As the errata-free rewording it got is quite ambiguous.
4. Mandarin: This card has the most shenanigan-heavy on-gain effect ever, and is unlikely to ever be beaten in this regard. This doesn't mean much, however, as its in-game usage is almost as narrow as Counting House. Being a terminal Gold with a mostly-detrimental onplay-effect makes it look rather sucky comparing to stuff like Treasurer, and the on-gain effect is no enough to make up for that.
5. Ill-gotten gains: This is not a poorly designed card by any means, but it is still quite obvious that it's an unwanted stepchild of the designing team. You either ignore this card, or ignore the rest of the kingdom. Which is undesired, even when it is usually not overly obvious which strategy is the best choice. (It is also considered to be too complicated, to which I disagree)
6. Margrave: This card pretty obnoxious, and is kinda in the same boat as the outtake-Attacks from Seaside and Prosperity. It is pretty annoying when your opponent has a 5/2 opening and is continuously able to attack you (thanks to the fast cycling this card provides). It also undeservingly gives +Buy, and Seaside 2E kinda prove that this is not the stuff that is going to be errata'd out.
7. Trader: Probably a textbook case of cool on paper but poor in practice. It is almost always outclassed as a trasher and against junking Attacks, hand-reactions aren't so great in general. In the end, it exclusively stands out as a Silver gainer, to which it compares pretty unfavorably to Groom.
8. Oracle: This card is underpowered and brings very little to the table that other sources of draw don't. The attacking part makes it slow to resolve, too. Didn't Donald X say that he hates this card?
9. Haggler: The development team has assigned themselves the mission to phase out the use of "while in play" and "when you buy". Among the cards that still exist, Haggler is the biggest roadblock by far - its effect shouldn't be Throneable and it obviously must be restricted to buying. My hypothesis is that this will be replaced by a variant that is restricted to a singular gain per play.

My predictions on the errata are:
Highway: Cost reduction is part of the on-play effect of the card.
Farmlands: Only the first Farmland you gain in a turn gets the Remodel effect.
Fool's Gold: Looses the Reaction part.

I agree with all of these except haggler; i think the 9th card to get swapped out will be Nomad Camp, on the same criteria as Woodcutter.

[NoMoreFun]

I'd pick Develop and Nomad Camp as the goners instead of Haggler and Trader. Develop is a really niche card that I think is out for the same reasons as Counting House. Nomad Camp isn't that bad but isn't really worth a slot, and I think a better card could explore the way that card affects the early and late game.

Haggler can get a "This turn" wording and either the "if you bought it" wording from Hoard, or it gains you cards at the end of your buy phase based on cards you gained during it (like the new Merchant Guild). The latter is harder to track but not too hard. Even "once this turn" would be a fun enough card. Farmland being "the first time you gain" is fine.

Trader is one of my favourite cards so wishful thinking
that it stays more than anything. I like how it turns the tables on junkers and self junkers.

Hinterlands would really suit "introducing" Events (as the set focusing on "things happening immediately when you buy") and 8 blanks seems like too many, so I hope it has a set of events, though 9 new cards makes it a bit awkward to do that (update pack would need to be 107 cards)

Hoping for a lot more when gain effects as there were surprisingly few in original Hinterlands and several are on bad cards.

[Imrahil3]

Again with the hot takes! Trader is a great card that just so happens to not be Chapel. It’s not a thinner, it’s a Silver gainer.

My worthless hot take is that Hinterlands doesn’t need any brand new cards. It needs a few mild rebalancing for sure (I.e. Cache needs +1 Buy and probably cost 1 less). A major theme of Hinterlands was dealing with bulky, large decks, so kicking out cards because they don’t promote thin engines is a non-starter for me.

[grrgrrgrr]

I'd pick Develop and Nomad Camp as the goners instead of Haggler and Trader. Develop is a really niche card that I think is out for the same reasons as Counting House. Nomad Camp isn't that bad but isn't really worth a slot, and I think a better card could explore the way that card affects the early and late game.

Yeah, these two make sense as well.

Haggler can get a "This turn" wording and either the "if you bought it" wording from Hoard, or it gains you cards at the end of your buy phase based on cards you gained during it (like the new Merchant Guild). The latter is harder to track but not too hard. Even "once this turn" would be a fun enough card. Farmland being "the first time you gain" is fine.

You're right, but just imagine the wording nightmare this is going to be:

Haggler ($5, Action)
+$2
If this is the first time you played Haggler this turn, then, when you gain a card this turn, if you bought it, gain a cheaper non-Victory card.

Ok, it's maybe not that bad

[silverspawn]

Develop is amazeballs. Trader is cool. Very much a silver gainer not a trasher as Imrahil3 said. Would bet against either card disappearing.

[Awaclus]

Would bet against either card disappearing.

At what odds?

Trader is a cool card, but it is not great to introduce exchange in Hinterlands just for one card, it's not strong enough to be worth buying most of the time, Donald X. has mentioned before that he would simplify Trader if he had a time machine (which seems like a horrifyingly irresponsible use for a time machine, but I digress), and the base probability of any given card leaving is about 35% if they're randomly chosen. Plus we know we're getting a card called Guard Dog which is probably a Reaction because dogs are blue. I wouldn't say I think it's likely to get replaced, but I would give it maybe a 10-15% chance, and with the (which I think is lower but still non-zero) chance of Develop getting replaced on top of that, I might take you up on that bet depending on the odds.

[silverspawn]

Not betting against that, I don't think I'm more confident than you. 10-15% sounds right.

[spineflu]

Would bet against either card disappearing.

At what odds?

Trader is a cool card, but it is not great to introduce exchange in Hinterlands just for one card, it's not strong enough to be worth buying most of the time, Donald X. has mentioned before that he would simplify Trader if he had a time machine (which seems like a horrifyingly irresponsible use for a time machine, but I digress), and the base probability of any given card leaving is about 35% if they're randomly chosen. Plus we know we're getting a card called Guard Dog which is probably a Reaction because dogs are blue. I wouldn't say I think it's likely to get replaced, but I would give it maybe a 10-15% chance, and with the (which I think is lower but still non-zero) chance of Develop getting replaced on top of that, I might take you up on that bet depending on the odds.

On the other hand, maybe some of the replacement cards also use exchange and it becomes the "introduce exchange" expansion, since when-buy is getting phased out for when-gain. For example, I could see a replacement IGG that lets opponents also exchange curses for coppers, to be less stifling.

[Donald X.]

Do you have plans for when Hinterlands 2E will be previewed yet?

No date yet, but I'll let people know ahead of time this time.

[Jack Rudd]

Trader getting swapped out for a blue dog would be very appropriate.

[CaptainTheo]

I can think of eight cards at most that would be suitable candidates for removal but apparently at least one of them (Farmland) is staying, so I tried to categorise them into tiers depending on how "safe" the existing cards were. I wonder if only eight cards are being removed as although there are already 26 cards in the set, it includes some blank cards, and I recall hearing something about 27 cards in new sets.

Probably going: Mandarin, Duchess, Cache, Noble Brigand, Farmland. Some of these have some interesting effects but are generally considered weak, and Noble Brigand is a bit tedious.

Likely removal: Develop, Ill-Gotten Gains, Silk Road. I'm particularly unsure about Silk Road leaving as no other card gives you points for Victory cards but as a certain number are being removed...

Uncertain: Oracle, Nomad Camp, Inn. I would have expected them to stay but it looks like even if those above are all going, at least one more would need to be removed. Oracle is a bit tedious and the other two have interesting/unique effects even if they aren't that strong.

Probably safe: Margrave, Tunnel, Trader, Cartographer. I do find Margrave an annoying attack but it offers quite a lot and enough similar attacks (Goons, Ghost Ship) have already been removed recently. I've always liked Trader, the additional reaction is an added benefit and Tunnel has a nice reaction too.

Safe: Border Village, Haggler, Crossroads, Scheme, Fool's Gold, Stables, Spice Merchant, Oasis, Jack, Embassy, Highway. I'd be stunned if any of these are removed.

[Gherald]

The 7 obvious ones are Mandarin, Duchess, Cache, Noble Brigand, IGG, Oracle, Nomad Camp.  Oracle is only bad because it's slow to resolve, some other draw replacement will be better.

Hard to guess what the other two of 9 might be, nothing else in the set has clear issues.  I suppose Develop is too weak if you look at it as just a trasher, but it's more of a weird gainer like Dismantle.

[silverspawn]

I think Spice Merchant is secretly one of the least interesting cards ever printed since you just get it on T1/2 every time. I still don't expect it to go, but I do think there is a strong case, theoretically.

[Awaclus]

I think Spice Merchant is secretly one of the least interesting cards ever printed since you just get it on T1/2 every time. I still don't expect it to go, but I do think there is a strong case, theoretically.

I don't think that makes it inherently uninteresting. You always get Cursed Gold on T0 every time, but the fact that it's there and changes how the game plays out makes it interesting. Spice Merchant makes it a lot easier to build an engine, and it creates some remarkably interesting decisions sometimes when it's the only +buy.

[Cuzz]

What on earth is the argument for getting rid of Develop?

[Commodore Chuckles]

What on earth is the argument for getting rid of Develop?

It's usually weak, that's reason enough for some people. I don't think it's reason enough for Donald, though.

I think Cartographer should go. It's never good or interesting. Night Watchman is what this card wanted to be.

I'm surprised to see some semi-defense of Nomad Camp here. I think it would be worse than Woodcutter even if it cost the same, because it's something you pretty much never want on top of your deck.

I actually think IGG is worth keeping. Games where the rush is good are games that weren't going to be interesting anyway. If the rush isn't good, it can still be worth getting if your deck has become stuffed with green or you can remodel it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Donald said he hated Oracle, for the same reason he hated Spy. It's weak and slow to resolve.

[J Reggie]

I wonder how far these second editions will go? Will Dark Ages get one? It'd be nice to finally see Rebuild and Cultist go, but I'm not sure there are enough other cards to be replaced. Adventures? I hope not, I'd hate to see Miser replaced. Or is Hinterlands it?