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[Donald X.]

The "choose one" theme from Intrigue returns! Okay it's been on the table for every expansion, but now there is a bunch of it at once. Including cards that can cantrip or do another thing, and cards that do something and then give you a choice of a twist on that something. Well let's start with a split pile, the Townsfolk:



Elder ties the pile together, giving you an extra choice when choose-one-ing (or choose-two-ing). It's optional; you can Elder a Count and take an extra good thing but not an extra bad thing. If I made a card like Elder as a regular pile, game after game there'd be no choose-one on the same board. But it's in a split pile so there are always at least two, Town Crier and Blacksmith. And then Miller can help you line up the combo.

And here are two regular kingdom cards:



Town. A thing of beauty is a joy forever. Modify trashes a card, but then what? Was that the whole point, or did you want to Remodel it? The choice is yours.

And two more Allies:



Band of Nomads gives you a choice, though it doesn't work with Elder. It can be exciting with gainers, and when there aren't any, well it can still make +Buys for you. Architects' Guild doesn't fit the day's theme but I am showing it off anyway. It's the Haggler Ally.

Again, cards can be tried out almost immediately at https://dominion.games/.

[mxdata]

Elder sounds like it will be incredibly strong with some cards. It already looks like it would have a great combination with Town Crier and Blacksmith. Elder + Blacksmith would all a net draw to 8! Or non-terminal draw to 7!

[Jeebus]

So Elder is another card that refers to the abilites of other cards. And this one too opens up some rules questions. What is included in "gives you a choice of abilities"?  "Choose one" is just an example, so then I guess it should also include Barge (draw now and next turn), Border Guard (take Lantern and Horn), Hermit (trash one from discard and one from hand), Raze (trash this and a card from hand), Small Castle (trash this and a Castle from hand), Tournament (gain a Prize and a Duchy (or two Prizes?)), Village Green (now and next turn).

In the case of Raze and Small Castle, what would it entail to do both? The rest of Raze's ability refers to the "trashed card", so I guess you would do it twice? But interpreting Small Castle the same way, would it give you two Castles?

Also, Jester. (It even says "your choice".) You would rarely want to give a copy to both yourself and an opponent, but it could be an end-game move.

[mxdata]

So Elder is another card that refers to the abilites of other cards. And this one too opens up some rules questions. What is included in "gives you a choice of abilities"?  "Choose one" is just an example, so then I guess it should also include Barge (draw now and next turn), Border Guard (take Lantern and Horn), Hermit (trash one from discard and one from hand), Raze (trash this and a card from hand), Small Castle (trash this and a Castle from hand), Tournament (gain a Prize and a Duchy (or two Prizes?)), Village Green (now and next turn).

In the case of Raze and Small Castle, what would it entail to do both? The rest of Raze's ability refers to the "trashed card", so I guess you would do it twice? But interpreting Small Castle the same way, would it give you two Castles?

I feel like with Tournament's gaining, it's not a set of optional abilities, it's a single ability, gaining, which is restricted in a certain way (from the Prize pile or the Duchy Pile), and likewise, the trashing with Hermit, Raze, and Small Castle aren't different abilities, they're a definition of where you're allowed to look to for cards to trash. The now or next turn would definitely result in now and next turn I think

I feel like this card's probably going to have a decently-long FAQ

[AJD]

So Elder is another card that refers to the abilites of other cards. And this one too opens up some rules questions. What is included in "gives you a choice of abilities"?  "Choose one" is just an example, so then I guess it should also include Barge (draw now and next turn), Border Guard (take Lantern and Horn), Hermit (trash one from discard and one from hand), Raze (trash this and a card from hand), Small Castle (trash this and a Castle from hand), Tournament (gain a Prize and a Duchy (or two Prizes?)), Village Green (now and next turn).

In the case of Raze and Small Castle, what would it entail to do both? The rest of Raze's ability refers to the "trashed card", so I guess you would do it twice? But interpreting Small Castle the same way, would it give you two Castles?

Well, certainly not Barge or Village Green, since Elder specifically states "this turn". I too would like to know the scope of what counts as a "choice of abilities"—does "e.g., 'choose one'" only encompass when the word "choose" is used, or a broader range of things that could be construed as choices, as Jeebus suggests?—but I assume the card FAQ will tell us.

[vidicate]

I love how appropriately named Miller is.

[Jeebus]

I feel like with Tournament's gaining, it's not a set of optional abilities, it's a single ability, gaining, which is restricted in a certain way (from the Prize pile or the Duchy Pile), and likewise, the trashing with Hermit, Raze, and Small Castle aren't different abilities, they're a definition of where you're allowed to look to for cards to trash. The now or next turn would definitely result in now and next turn I think

I feel like this card's probably going to have a decently-long FAQ

No, Tournament gives a choices between two effects (gain a Prize, gain a Duchy). It's not one gaining effect with restrictions. We know this because you can choose either one, even if the pile is empty, in which case you gain nothing. (But I'm fairly certain "gain a Prize" is one gaining effect with restrictions.) So Tournament is functionally the same as Pawn, for instance. You choose between separate effects. Only the wording is different.

The same is true for Hermit, Raze and Small Castle. You can choose an option that will fail, meaning that these are separate effects that you choose from.

[Jeebus]

Well, certainly not Barge or Village Green, since Elder specifically states "this turn". I too would like to know the scope of what counts as a "choice of abilities"—does "e.g., 'choose one'" only encompass when the word "choose" is used, or a broader range of things that could be construed as choices, as Jeebus suggests?—but I assume the card FAQ will tell us.

Barge gives you "a choice of abilities" this turn. One of them happens to be setting up a future ability, but it's still something you do this turn when you play the card.

[NoMoreFun]

Elder seemed busted at first, but it's mostly worse than "+$2, Throne Room". Still, that's still a strong card, it combos quite nicely with the other Townsfolk. and it's fun to think about combos.

[NoMoreFun]

Well, certainly not Barge or Village Green, since Elder specifically states "this turn". I too would like to know the scope of what counts as a "choice of abilities"—does "e.g., 'choose one'" only encompass when the word "choose" is used, or a broader range of things that could be construed as choices, as Jeebus suggests?—but I assume the card FAQ will tell us.

Barge gives you "a choice of abilities" this turn. One of them happens to be setting up a future ability, but it still something you do this turn when you play the card.

The "this turn" seems to come into effect for Amulet (you still only get one choice next turn).

[pst]

Elder sounds like it will be incredibly strong with some cards.

I think the Elder would like a Trusty Steed.

[Jeebus]

Well, certainly not Barge or Village Green, since Elder specifically states "this turn". I too would like to know the scope of what counts as a "choice of abilities"—does "e.g., 'choose one'" only encompass when the word "choose" is used, or a broader range of things that could be construed as choices, as Jeebus suggests?—but I assume the card FAQ will tell us.

Barge gives you "a choice of abilities" this turn. One of them happens to be setting up a future ability, but it still something you do this turn when you play the card.

The "this turn" seems to come into effect for Amulet (you still only get one choice next turn).

No. Amulet gives you a choice this turn, for effects to do this turn, and you get to choose an extra option with Elder. It also gives you a choice next turn, but that is irrelevant. Setting up that ability for next turn (where you get to choose next turn) is part of what Amulet does this turn, but it does that anyway; you don't choose to do it.

Barge gives you a choice this turn, for effects to do this turn. One of them happens to be setting up a future ability, but it still something you do this turn when you play the card.

[ahyangyi]

Elder seemed busted at first, but it's mostly worse than "+$2, Throne Room". Still, that's still a strong card, it combos quite nicely with the other Townsfolk. and it's a fun to think about combos.

Elder+Broker is arguably stronger than Throne Room+Broker+$2  though.

[familiar]

How Elder will combine with Catacomb??

[Dubdubdubdub]

How Elder will combine with Catacomb??

Good one!

I suppose, if you want to put the cards in your hand and then discard them, go ahead I don't think you still get to put them into your hand after you've discarded them, but the wording could definitely be clearer.

[Jeebus]

How Elder will combine with Catacomb??

I guess it depends on how we interpret Elder's ability:

Are we resolving Catacombs once, and the resolving part of it again (similar to playing it with Throne Room)? If so, you could put the cards in hand, then fail to discard them (because the second Catacombs ability lost track), then draw 3.

Or is Elder just "modifying" how we play Catacombs, like Lantern modifies Border Guard, so that instead of choosing one, we choose two different options? In that case, I guess you would discard them from your hand (so it's pointless).

I assume the latter.

[vidicate]

Well, certainly not Barge or Village Green, since Elder specifically states "this turn". I too would like to know the scope of what counts as a "choice of abilities"—does "e.g., 'choose one'" only encompass when the word "choose" is used, or a broader range of things that could be construed as choices, as Jeebus suggests?—but I assume the card FAQ will tell us.

Barge gives you "a choice of abilities" this turn. One of them happens to be setting up a future ability, but it still something you do this turn when you play the card.

The "this turn" seems to come into effect for Amulet (you still only get one choice next turn).

No. Amulet gives you a choice this turn, for effects to do this turn, and you get to choose an extra option with Elder. It also gives you a choice next turn, but that is irrelevant. Setting up that ability for next turn (where you get to choose next turn) is part of what Amulet does this turn, but it does that anyway; you don't choose to do it.

Barge gives you a choice this turn, for effects to do this turn. One of them happens to be setting up a future ability, but it still something you do this turn when you play the card.

Uhhh they weren’t disagreeing with you. They were saying that for Amulet the “this turn” part of Elder is relevant, unlike for Barge.

[Jeebus]

Uhhh they weren’t disagreeing with you. They were saying that for Amulet the “this turn” part of Elder is relevant, unlike for Barge.

Ok, yeah I was a little unclear about what they meant, but then I misunderstood. My apologies to NoMoreFun.

[silverspawn]

So let's get the big question out of the way. is Miller a MTG reference because "mill" refers to putting cards from the deck library into the discard pile graveyard?

[vidicate]

So let's get the big question out of the way. is Miller a MTG reference because "mill" refers to putting cards from the deck library into the discard pile graveyard?

Most definitely. I referenced this in an earlier comment up top. 

[dz]

If you go online, you will find out that Elder's text ONLY applies to choose one's and choose two's. Feel free to complain about the wording, it is what it is (I myself would probably give up on keeping the text at max font).

This is also implied through Donald X.'s preview text; if Elder applied to literally all abilities, then what does this sentence mean?

If I made a card like Elder as a regular pile, game after game there'd be no choose-one on the same board.

So Elder doesn't affect Barge, Jester, Border Guard, or even Duchess. It's only for cards like Pawn, Count, Amulet (for one turn), and Town Crier.

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.
-If you Elder a Catacombs (and choose both options), you put the 3 cards you're looking at into your hand, then you discard those exact 3 cards and draw 3 new cards. (Catacombs is the only thing moving those 3 cards, so stop-moving doesn't apply here.) Yes it's weird, and would require an extreme edge case to be useful in gameplay.

[Jeebus]

If you go online, you will find out that Elder's text ONLY applies to choose one's and choose two's. Feel free to complain about the wording, it is what it is (I myself would probably give up on keeping the text at max font).

I thought that would be the case. Dominion online is not always correct in its implementation though, so it's not official until Donald says so.

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

-If you Elder a Catacombs (and choose both options), you put the 3 cards you're looking at into your hand, then you discard those exact 3 cards and draw 3 new cards. (Catacombs is the only thing moving those 3 cards, so stop-moving doesn't apply here.) Yes it's weird, and would require an extreme edge case to be useful in gameplay.

Stop-moving would apply if Elder made you follow the Catacombs instruction an extra time after you followed it the first time. See what I wrote above.

[dz]

If you go online, you will find out that Elder's text ONLY applies to choose one's and choose two's. Feel free to complain about the wording, it is what it is (I myself would probably give up on keeping the text at max font).

I thought that would be the case. Dominion online is not always correct in its implementation though, so it's not official until Donald says so.

I can tell you that Donald X. playtested the online version before previews week. Hopefully that's not a surprise.

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

People asked about it on discord! I didn't expect the question either.

-If you Elder a Catacombs (and choose both options), you put the 3 cards you're looking at into your hand, then you discard those exact 3 cards and draw 3 new cards. (Catacombs is the only thing moving those 3 cards, so stop-moving doesn't apply here.) Yes it's weird, and would require an extreme edge case to be useful in gameplay.

Stop-moving would apply if Elder made you follow the Catacombs instruction an extra time after you followed it the first time. See what I wrote above.

I guess you're asking, when does Elder's ability apply? If so then it's your second interpretation: you make the choices all at once, and then you do them in the written order.

[familiar]

For Catacombs case, can we discard them and +3 Cards 1st and then put them into my hand?

[ossiangrr]

Are these the final layouts of the printed cards?
This is the second time I've seen an ally that says "spend a Favor, for.." and that comma is just really bothering me grammatically.

[Davio]

For Catacombs case, can we discard them and +3 Cards 1st and then put them into my hand?

I think the problem here is moving the cards.

The stop-moving rule: An effect can move a card if it specifies where the card is coming from, or if the effect put the card where it is now. If a card isn't where the effect would expect it to be, or has moved away from there and then back, it can't move the card. Played cards expect to be in play; they can't move themselves if they aren't. Gained cards are expected to be where they were gained to, even if this isn't the discard pile. Cards in discard piles can be moved even if covered up by other cards; cards on top of a deck can't be moved once covered up.

Either effect of Catacombs expects the cards to be on top of your deck. So if you first discard them and draw 3 new cards, I would think that attempting to put them into your hand would fail.

If the card would be retrofit with text like this:

Choose one: put the top 3 cards of your deck into your hand; or discard them and +3 cards. You may look at the top 3 cards of your deck before making a choice.

Then it would work I guess?

[Jeebus]

I can tell you that Donald X. playtested the online version before previews week. Hopefully that's not a surprise.

No, but there are a number of wrongly implemented card interations there already, so somehow they get in sometimes, usually corner cases of course. As a rule I just don't base rulings on how the online client works.

I guess you're asking, when does Elder's ability apply? If so then it's your second interpretation: you make the choices all at once, and then you do them in the written order.

I was not asking about that specifically, but that's actually an even more relevant question! From the text I would have thought it was the other way: you first make the choices (all at once) that the card gives, and then you may choose an extra option. (It could still comply with my second interpretation.)

[Davio]

I can tell you that Donald X. playtested the online version before previews week. Hopefully that's not a surprise.

No, but there are a number of wrongly implemented card interations there already, so somehow they get in sometimes, usually corner cases of course. As a rule I just don't base rulings on how the online client works.

I guess you're asking, when does Elder's ability apply? If so then it's your second interpretation: you make the choices all at once, and then you do them in the written order.

I was not asking about that specifically, but that's actually an even more relevant question! From the text I would have thought it was the other way: you first make the choices (all at once) that the card gives, and then you may choose an extra option. (It could still comply with my second interpretation.)

Cards which let you make more than 1 choice always make you make the choices at the same time, so I would guess it works this way with Elder as well.

I think any card which reads "choose one" simply becomes "choose two (choices must be different)" like Pawn.

[Jeebus]

For Catacombs case, can we discard them and +3 Cards 1st and then put them into my hand?

Hey, I missed that possibility! Yes, if we assume that Catacombs doesn't lose track of the cards (as Dz was saying regarding how Dominion Online works), then yes, you could discard them, draw 3 cards, and put the discarded cards in your hand.

If it's the other way, that Catacombs does lose track, you could instead choose to put them into your hand, then fail to discard them, and draw 3 cards.

In either case, you end up drawing 6 cards!

EDIT: Just tested it online. If you choose both options, the client doesn't let you choose to discard first, so you end up discarding the cards. Pretty sure that's wrong. EDIT AGAIN: You have to do it in order, so this would not be possible if you have to choose options first.

[King Leon]

Interesting. How does Elder interact with Count? Do I get exactly one additional optional choice total or one choice for the (besides of edge cases) bad effect and one choice for the good effect, where both choices are optional?

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

[Davio]

Interesting. How does Elder interact with Count? Do I get exactly one additional choice or one choice for the (besides of edge cases) bad effect and one choice for the good effect?

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

There are 2 separate "choose one" parts on Count, they are not related, so I guess you need to choose 2 different positives and 2 different negatives.

[m_knox]

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

I do not think this will be the case. You see, "Action card from the Supply" is not an ability, and Elder refers to abilities.

[Davio]

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

I do not think this will be the case. You see, "Action card from the Supply" is not an ability, and Elder refers to abilities.

"ability" currently is not a clearly defined term, maybe it should be? I don't know.

There does seem to be a difference between choices presented by cards (abilities?) and choices which are simply part of resolving an effect, such as Scrying Pool's 'your choice'. I would not expect that with Scrying Pool I would be able to choose to both topdeck and discard the card.

[Davio]

I think that not being able to let the player choose the order can be problematic and counter intutive.

Example: Native Village

I would think that if I played Elder with Native Village I could choose the order in which I put a card on the mat and take all my cards from the mat.
But if I have to do it in written order, I always have to put down a card first.

[markus]

EDIT: Just tested it online. If you choose both options, the client doesn't let you choose to discard first, so you end up discarding the cards. Pretty sure that's wrong.

Is this not just the usual following in order of the options on the card when choosing more than 1 (e.g. Pawn)?

[Jeebus]

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

I do not think this will be the case. You see, "Action card from the Supply" is not an ability, and Elder refers to abilities.

"ability" currently is not a clearly defined term, maybe it should be? I don't know.

There does seem to be a difference between choices presented by cards (abilities?) and choices which are simply part of resolving an effect, such as Scrying Pool's 'your choice'. I would not expect that with Scrying Pool I would be able to choose to both topdeck and discard the card.

It would be better of Elder had refered to "effects" than "abilities". It's true that neither of these are strictly defined in Dominion, but they have been used in the rulebooks and sometimes on cards. It's normal to refer to a card's "effects" in plural, for instance its "on-play effects", which would be equivalent to its "on-play ability". So a card has one ability when it's played, which consists of several effects (also called instructions). A card can have another ability as a reaction for instance, which can also consists of several effects.

Elder is clearly refering to effects, following this logic. You choose between several effects.

Choosing a card in the supply is one effect. This applies whether you're playing BoM or Pillage or Workshop. (Workshop tells you to gain a card from Supply, this is a choice.) So this is not a choice between several effects.

Scrying Pool however let's you choose between two effects: discard the card or put it back. If Elder applied to all cards that let you choose between several effects, it would also apply to Scrying Pool. But if course for Scrying Pool it doesn't make a difference. And it seems that Elder only applies to cards that say "choose x".

[Jeebus]

EDIT: Just tested it online. If you choose both options, the client doesn't let you choose to discard first, so you end up discarding the cards. Pretty sure that's wrong.

Is this not just the usual following in order of the options on the card when choosing more than 1 (e.g. Pawn)?

Damn, I had forgotten that "choose" effects are always done in order now. Pawn used to be that you can choose the order, but then it was changed. It rarely matters, so I just forgot about the change.

[ephesos]

Interesting. How does Elder interact with Count? Do I get exactly one additional choice or one choice for the (besides of edge cases) bad effect and one choice for the good effect?

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

There are 2 separate "choose one" parts on Count, they are not related, so I guess you need to choose 2 different positives and 2 different negatives.

Elder says "you may choose an extra (different) option", so you could choose 2 positives and still choose only 1 negative. Or 1 positive and 2 negatives, if that's your kind of thing.

[AJD]

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

People asked about it on discord! I didn't expect the question either.

I assume the motivation for asking this is, if you trash a Curse, Scrap can be interpreted as having an instruction "Choose 0:", which Elder would bump up to Choose 1.

(I assume Elder does usually work on Scrap, though? Elder / Scrap : Estate --> 3 bonuses?)

[Gubump]

Interesting. How does Elder interact with Count? Do I get exactly one additional choice or one choice for the (besides of edge cases) bad effect and one choice for the good effect?

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

There are 2 separate "choose one" parts on Count, they are not related, so I guess you need to choose 2 different positives and 2 different negatives.

It's optional; you can Elder a Count and take an extra good thing but not an extra bad thing.

[Jeebus]

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

People asked about it on discord! I didn't expect the question either.

I assume the motivation for asking this is, if you trash a Curse, Scrap can be interpreted as having an instruction "Choose 0:", which Elder would bump up to Choose 1.

(I assume Elder does usually work on Scrap, though? Elder / Scrap : Estate --> 3 bonuses?)

Right, I see now.
Elder + Scrap is an open question. Courtier is functionally the same as Scrap (or it would seem so), and it actually says "choose one", so seems to be covered by Elder. If Scrap is covered too, then it's actually reasonable to think that you get to choose 0. On the other hand, that's not actually a choice.

[LastFootnote]

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

People asked about it on discord! I didn't expect the question either.

I assume the motivation for asking this is, if you trash a Curse, Scrap can be interpreted as having an instruction "Choose 0:", which Elder would bump up to Choose 1.

(I assume Elder does usually work on Scrap, though? Elder / Scrap : Estate --> 3 bonuses?)

I think the current ruling is that Elder/Scrap on a $0-cost card doesn't give you 1 option, since you technically didn't get a choice of options. In general Elder does work on Scrap and Courtier to give you an extra option, assuming you already got at least one.

[allanfieldhouse]

Even ignoring the craziness of Elder, I really like the design space of these choose-one's. I'm thinking these cards are really going to help smooth out engine play -- especially in the early building stage.

As an example, take Town. Village is often completely useless if it's not drawn with other actions. Same thing for Woodcutter if it IS drawn with other terminals. Well, put them together, and it's almost always useful. And with Elder, it's... a Grand Market Village for $4?

[infangthief]

One interpretation for Elder on Courtier would be:

(Normal Courtier) "For each type it has, choose one:" becomes (with Elder) "For each type it has, {choose one, then you may choose an extra (different) option}".
So:
1 type -> 1 or 2 choices
2 types -> 2, 3 or 4 choices
3 types -> 3-6 choices.

Then it becomes unclear what interaction there is between Courtier's "The choices must be different" and Elder's choices.

[AJD]

As an example, take Town. Village is often completely useless if it's not drawn with other actions. Same thing for Woodcutter if it IS drawn with other terminals. Well, put them together, and it's almost always useful. And with Elder, it's... a Grand Market Village for $4?

Elder ain't special, it's a Grand Market Village with Throne Room too

(Yes, Elder also gives you $2 itself that Throne Room doesn't, I know)

[faust]

Elder's text as written is also weird with replaying... It says when "it" (i.e. the Action card you played with it) gives you a choice of abilities this turn, then we get another option.

But arguably, when I replay the Action card with Royal Carriage or Scepter, "it" gives me again a choice of abilities, so would I be able to choose an extra one again? I assume this is not intended. But then it would be better if Elder didn't refer to "it" (the Action card) and rather to "this" (the playing of the Action card).

[GendoIkari]

I'm actually surprised that Scrap doesn't work with Elder... Or is it that it works as long as Scrap is already giving you at least 1 option; and just doesn't work when it gives you 0 options?

[spineflu]

So is there a list of the cards Elder provides extra choices with, or should I just trawl the template:Navbox cards and figure it out for the wiki?


Today seems to have been the +1 Card and +1 Action day. as always let me know if I missed anything.

[GendoIkari]

Are these the final layouts of the printed cards?
This is the second time I've seen an ally that says "spend a Favor, for.." and that comma is just really bothering me grammatically.

This comma is on all "for" cards; has been since original second-edition (and later set) wordings.

*Edit* Apparently it's not consistent... it's on some "for" cards but not others. Mill has the comma, but Baron and Hamlet don't.

[mxdata]

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

People asked about it on discord! I didn't expect the question either.

Hunh, I would've assumed you would get a bonus. The way I read it is that you essentially add one to the "Choose X:". Scrapping a Curse normally works out as "Choose 0:" (because Curse is worth $0), which would then become "Choose 1:"

[GendoIkari]

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

People asked about it on discord! I didn't expect the question either.

Hunh, I would've assumed you would get a bonus. The way I read it is that you essentially add one to the "Choose X:". Scrapping a Curse normally works out as "Choose 0:" (because Curse is worth $0), which would then become "Choose 1:"

Yeah this would make sense to me, but I can also see the ruling that what it's looking for isn't the wording "Choose X", but rather when the card actually gives you a choice via a "Choose X" wording. So in the case of "Choose 0", you aren't actually being given a choice; there is only 1 way to choose.

Also, this seems way to similar to that huge "can you shuffle 1 card" debate that was had a long time ago. Can you call something a choice if you only have 1 thing to choose from?

[Gubump]

So is there a list of the cards Elder provides extra choices with, or should I just trawl the template:Navbox cards and figure it out for the wiki?


Today seems to have been the +1 Card and +1 Action day. as always let me know if I missed anything.

Only three +1 Card and +1 Action today, not four (Town Crier, Blacksmith, and Modify).

[Jeebus]

One interpretation for Elder on Courtier would be:

(Normal Courtier) "For each type it has, choose one:" becomes (with Elder) "For each type it has, {choose one, then you may choose an extra (different) option}".
So:
1 type -> 1 or 2 choices
2 types -> 2, 3 or 4 choices
3 types -> 3-6 choices.

Then it becomes unclear what interaction there is between Courtier's "The choices must be different" and Elder's choices.

I thought about that, but rejected it. The rulebook for Courtier states that you choose your options first, then do them. So this is not several consecutive effects involving choosing. You choose just one time, then do the effects. Then "the choices must be different" also makes sense. So it's another example of a card not written 100% technically correct. We still have no idea how Scrap is supposed to work with Elder. It doesn't say the magical "choose x".

This is why these cards (like Capitalism and Way of the Chameleon) are always confusing and unclear.

[Squidd]

Also, this seems way to similar to that huge "can you shuffle 1 card" debate that was had a long time ago.

Assuming you mean the 2016 BGG thread, the latest post (on page 187) was a week ago.

[spineflu]

Also, this seems way to similar to that huge "can you shuffle 1 card" debate that was had a long time ago.

Assuming you mean the 2016 BGG thread, the latest post (on page 187) was a week ago.

probably more the thread in the rules questions subforum; but that ended in 2016. incidentally, the rulings were you can shuffle one card, but not zero.

[Donald X.]

- Elder only interacts with "choose N."
- With Courtier you get one extra choice, not one extra choice per type.
- Tentatively Elder - Scrap - Copper gives you one choice. I can't read the relevant things this minute.

[GendoIkari]

Also, this seems way to similar to that huge "can you shuffle 1 card" debate that was had a long time ago.

Assuming you mean the 2016 BGG thread, the latest post (on page 187) was a week ago.

I was thinking of a thread that happened here, though I don't remember if that was before or after the BGG thread. Crazy that it's still active on BGG.

*Edit* I can't find a thread with recent activity about it on BGG.

[Davio]

- Elder only interacts with "choose N."
- With Courtier you get one extra choice, not one extra choice per type.
- Tentatively Elder - Scrap - Copper gives you one choice. I can't read the relevant things this minute.

I'm OK with Scrap going either way.

Elder specifies "when it gives you a choice" and you could reason that if you trash something costing $0 you don't even get a choice so you can't get an extra choice.
The conclusion/ruling would be "an extra choice is only valid if you could choose at least one thing, otherwise there was no choice".

But then again, I could see the ruling being "a choice of 0 things is still a choice, so you just get 1 choice instead".

[Jeebus]

- Elder only interacts with "choose N."

Scrap says "choose a different thing", not "choose N", but close enough I guess.

[Squidd]

The BGG thread, which started a week after the thread here (which ended a few days later).

[GendoIkari]

The BGG thread, which started a week after the thread here (which ended a few days later).

Thanks; didn't find it because I was looking in the Dominion forums. But yeah I remember when that thread was made; it was in response to the thread here; attempting to get more objective inputs.

[mxdata]

I just had a game with the Townsfolk and Broker. Elder + Broker is a pretty strong combo, because you can get two of the bonuses. So, for example, trashing an Estate can give you a Lost City effect (in addition to Elder's +$2)

[vidicate]

Even ignoring the craziness of Elder, I really like the design space of these choose-one's. I'm thinking these cards are really going to help smooth out engine play -- especially in the early building stage.

As an example, take Town. Village is often completely useless if it's not drawn with other actions. Same thing for Woodcutter if it IS drawn with other terminals. Well, put them together, and it's almost always useful. And with Elder, it's... a Grand Market Village for $4?

+0 Cards (because you played two from hand)
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
+ (2 from each card)

So more like “Grand” Festival. Isn’t there some custom way to insert the Coins symbol on this board?

[GendoIkari]

Isn’t there some custom way to insert the Coins symbol on this board?

Check out my signature

[Gherald]

In every game I've played with Townsfolk, they're too slow. I've never even seen the Elder combo go off, there's always been better things to be doing for $5. This won't _always_ be the case, but meh, what a forgettable and unnecessary split pile that just doesn't add anything compelling to any kingdom. Give me any other random card, thanks

[vidicate]

Isn’t there some custom way to insert the Coins symbol on this board?

Check out my signature

Aha, yes, thanks! I’ll make note of that if I ever stop doing all my interneting from my iPad.

[Commodore Chuckles]

I have to say, it's nice that you can open Town and not feel like a Village Idiot.

[vidicate]

In every game I've played with Townsfolk, they're too slow. I've never even seen the Elder combo go off, there's always been better things to be doing for $5. This won't _always_ be the case, but meh, what a forgettable and unnecessary split pile that just doesn't add anything compelling to any kingdom. Give me any other random card, thanks

I haven’t played it much myself. Were these bot games? Or with real opponents?
Edit: typo

[mathdude]

- Elder only interacts with "choose N."

Scrap says "choose a different thing", not "choose N", but close enough I guess.

My understanding of Scrap is that it's worded the way it is to save a few words (and probably a line, and maintain a large enough font size).  It could read "Trash a card.  For each $ it costs, choose 1: ...; ...; ... (the choices must be different)."  Then it makes the wording very similar to Courtier, and now has the "choose N" trigger.

[GendoIkari]

- Elder only interacts with "choose N."

Scrap says "choose a different thing", not "choose N", but close enough I guess.

My understanding of Scrap is that it's worded the way it is to save a few words (and probably a line, and maintain a large enough font size).  It could read "Trash a card.  For each $ it costs, choose 1: ...; ...; ... (the choices must be different)."  Then it makes the wording very similar to Courtier, and now has the "choose N" trigger.

This is true, but the question comes down to when does a choice of wording made to save space also then end up having a rules impact? Cards like Envoy received errata so that the "draw" text didn't interfere with new stuff that cards about drawing (-1 card token). Envoy, both old and new wording, don't interact with Way of the Chameleon, even though you could say that Envoy's wording was just a clearer version of "Discard that one. +4 cards".

Capitalism, Way of the Chameleon, Patron, and now Elder all care about not only what sort of ability a card has, but what specific wording is used on the cards to deal with that ability.

We know that Elder is intended to work with Scrap's wording, and that it's not intended to work with Navigator's wording (even though Navigator could have just as easily be written with a "Choose one" wording instead). But we don't know an exact rule (yet) for what set of words makes Elder work. Sounds like it has it must have the word "choose", and also must list a series of effects that you can choose from afterwards.

[grrgrrgrr]

I think that there is a good chance that Elder is the next Capitalism. It is wacky, but I feel that whatever you try to pull with Elder, is very much held back by the fact that Elder by itself is just a disappearing Silver. This means that turning Town Crier and Town into Grand Markets is actually nowhere near as impressive as it sounds. It also doesn't help that you likely only get two of those. Because of that, you'd actually wanna avoid being dependent on Blacksmith for your drawing (which is also hot garbage on its own).

Elder+Minion is pretty nice, though, although the opportunity cost of unlocking Elder and buying that thing over another Minion is probably too much on average.

[Freddy10]

If you go online, you will find out that Elder's text ONLY applies to choose one's and choose two's. Feel free to complain about the wording, it is what it is (I myself would probably give up on keeping the text at max font).

This is also implied through Donald X.'s preview text; if Elder applied to literally all abilities, then what does this sentence mean?

If I made a card like Elder as a regular pile, game after game there'd be no choose-one on the same board.

So Elder doesn't affect Barge, Jester, Border Guard, or even Duchess. It's only for cards like Pawn, Count, Amulet (for one turn), and Town Crier.

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.
-If you Elder a Catacombs (and choose both options), you put the 3 cards you're looking at into your hand, then you discard those exact 3 cards and draw 3 new cards. (Catacombs is the only thing moving those 3 cards, so stop-moving doesn't apply here.) Yes it's weird, and would require an extreme edge case to be useful in gameplay.

While Elder+Catacombs can be simplified to the second option, if you follow the instructions, you put the cards into your hand, but when you discard them, nobody else can know if the discarded cards where the same or not (only you saw them). I think that probably nobody will "cheat" here, but it feels that some lost tracking rule should apply

[Gherald]

- Tentatively Elder - Scrap - Copper gives you one choice. I can't read the relevant things this minute.

Not in the online implementation...


It would be very weird if Elder - Scrap - Copper did give a choice but Elder - Scrap - Curse still doesn't (as reported). Like, they're both $0 cards and should just behave the same way.

I can't tell which way is correct from reading their text, though -- as Davio points out it could be ruled either way.

[GendoIkari]

If you go online, you will find out that Elder's text ONLY applies to choose one's and choose two's. Feel free to complain about the wording, it is what it is (I myself would probably give up on keeping the text at max font).

This is also implied through Donald X.'s preview text; if Elder applied to literally all abilities, then what does this sentence mean?

If I made a card like Elder as a regular pile, game after game there'd be no choose-one on the same board.

So Elder doesn't affect Barge, Jester, Border Guard, or even Duchess. It's only for cards like Pawn, Count, Amulet (for one turn), and Town Crier.

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.
-If you Elder a Catacombs (and choose both options), you put the 3 cards you're looking at into your hand, then you discard those exact 3 cards and draw 3 new cards. (Catacombs is the only thing moving those 3 cards, so stop-moving doesn't apply here.) Yes it's weird, and would require an extreme edge case to be useful in gameplay.

While Elder+Catacombs can be simplified to the second option, if you follow the instructions, you put the cards into your hand, but when you discard them, nobody else can know if the discarded cards where the same or not (only you saw them). I think that probably nobody will "cheat" here, but it feels that some lost tracking rule should apply

It's not really different than discarding multiple cards simultaneously and then revealing a discarded Tunnel from your discard pile.

[GendoIkari]

- Tentatively Elder - Scrap - Copper gives you one choice. I can't read the relevant things this minute.

Not in the online implementation...


It would be very weird if Elder - Scrap - Copper did give a choice but Elder - Scrap - Curse still doesn't (as reported). Like, they're both $0 cards and should just behave the same way.

I can't tell which way is correct from reading their text, though -- as Davio points out it could be ruled either way.

No, the tentative ruling would apply to all cost cards; Copper was just the example card. And the online implementation doesn't match the tentative ruling for any cost cards. If the tentative ruling becomes official, online would likely be fixed.

[Gherald]

Two different things about $0 cards have been said -- on Discord, that it doesn't give a choice for Curse, and here that it does give a choice for Copper.  I'm merely pointing this out, alongside what the online implementation does. Your response doesn't add anything and is misleading since we have no way to know which "tentative ruling" will stick.

[Jeebus]

Two different things about $0 cards have been said -- on Discord, that it doesn't give a choice for Curse, and here that it does give a choice for Copper.  I'm merely pointing this out, alongside what the online implementation does. Your response doesn't add anything and is misleading since we have no way to know which "tentative ruling" will stick.

Is there a tentative ruling for this on discord? That hasn't been reported here, I think. Just how it works online. In any case, there's no question that Scrapping a Copper and a Curse would work the same way, like GendoIkari was saying.

EDIT:

Just searched for Donald's statements on Discord, and today he actually confirmed the ruling.

Also, he tentatively ruled that Elder+Scrap+nothing gives you no choice whatsoever. To me this is another case of "it" (the trashed card) being undefined, so you don't even get to choose among 0 options, like you do if you trash a Copper. So the ruling should stick.

Of course, I wish Donald would write his rulings here instead, where they would be available and visible.

[GendoIkari]

Two different things about $0 cards have been said -- on Discord, that it doesn't give a choice for Curse, and here that it does give a choice for Copper.  I'm merely pointing this out, alongside what the online implementation does. Your response doesn't add anything and is misleading since we have no way to know which "tentative ruling" will stick.

I was not aware of any tentative ruling about Curse on Discord...

[Donald X.]

Of course, I wish Donald would write his rulings here instead, where they would be available and visible.

It's nice to have the more permanent and searchable record of forums, but there is just way more traffic on the discord than here. I'd put dominionstrategy third (in terms of amount of traffic) after the reddit currently (and BGG a distant 4th, and I can't really rank the German forums as I rarely see them).

[trivialknot]

Sorry to interrupt the very important discussion about Elder rules, but I'm giving my thoughts on the power level and implications of the previewed cards, based on no testing whatsoever.

Town Crier can do the Pawn thing where it's sometimes a cantrip, sometimes something else.  But I dunno, in modern Dominion, Pawn is kind of weak except for the +Buy, and Town Crier doesn't even have that.  It's not very strong but it doesn't hurt either, and there's that Elder synergy to look forward to, so eh?

Town Blacksmith seems more like it.  I think terminal draw that optionally cantrips is good in a way that Town Crier is not.

Miller is the super Border Guard.  Eh... it's not bad, but do I really want to spend $4 on it?

To gauge the power level of Elder, rather than imagining, e.g. Town Crier but with two options, I credit the second option to Elder.  So if I collide Elder+Town Crier, and use the extra option to get +$2, then Elder was like a non-terminal $4.  I would rate this on the level of a nice synergy, hardly world moving.  One thing that I find interesting, is that Elder synergizes with the top two Townsfolk, but not so much with Miller, so you have to invest in that synergy early and hope it pays off later.

Town seems somewhat above average for a village.  It's a decent even before you get your action density up, and the +Buy will be appreciated when it's needed.

Modify is roughly the power level of Upgrade, but I think slightly weaker.

I'm not sure if this was answered yet, but for Band of Nomads, can you only spend one favor per card you gain, or is it multiple?  I'm guessing it's just once per card?  When I first looked at favors, I thought they might be about as valuable as +Action or +Buy, and Band of Nomads makes that fairly direct.  But having the choice makes it even better.  What makes it less good is the timing restriction.  I think it's decent if you can gain cards during your action phase, but may otherwise be mediocre.

Architect's Guild seems comparable to Crafter's Guild from day 2.  Well, it can gain more expensive cards sometimes, but not victory cards, and it doesn't topdeck them.  I rated Crafter's Guild as extremely strong so I say the same here.

[GendoIkari]

Prediction: Architects' Guild is going to be the new Farmers' Market, where no one spells it right when it comes to the apostrophe.

Maybe I'll add an alias in the autolink so that the wrong version still works, like I did with Farmer's Market.

[GendoIkari]

One thing that I find interesting, is that Elder synergizes with the top two Townsfolk, but not so much with Miller, so you have to invest in that synergy early and hope it pays off later.

Just think, Miller could have been worded differently such that it works the same except when played with Elder:

Look at the top 4 cards of your deck. Choose One:
Put the first card into your hand and discard the rest; or
Put the second card into your hand and discard the rest; or
Put the third card into your hand and discard the rest; or
Put the fourth card into your hand and discard the rest.

[chipperMDW]

Prediction: Architects' Guild is going to be the new Farmers' Market, where no one spells it right when it comes to the apostrophe.

I just can't figure out why that one worker was important enough to name the entire village after.

[Jeebus]

Of course, I wish Donald would write his rulings here instead, where they would be available and visible.

It's nice to have the more permanent and searchable record of forums, but there is just way more traffic on the discord than here. I'd put dominionstrategy third (in terms of amount of traffic) after the reddit currently (and BGG a distant 4th, and I can't really rank the German forums as I rarely see them).

So I guess you're thinking cost-benefit in terms of how many people read what you're posting?

Well, even though there's a lot of traffic on discord, how many people actually end up reading it? Of course the group of people participating in the chat at that moment, but a lot more than that? Here it will accumulate views with time. I'm not saying that means that it's more here, I have no idea, but I don't think it's so clear that discord yields a lot more views.

In addition there is the thing that we need rulings to update the wiki and my rules document. I don't know if some wiki people grab everything from discord. I have posted a bunch of questions here that haven't gotten an answer yet (but I'll wait until the rulebook arrives and see what questions remain, and what new ones pop up, and make new posts in the rules forum.)

[Donald X.]

So I guess you're thinking cost-benefit in terms of how many people read what you're posting?

Not at all. I'm simply replying to conversations where they actually occur.

[Commodore Chuckles]

So have we gotten a ruling on whether you can choose the order of the choices? That matters a big deal for Town Elder + Blacksmith: draw up to 6 cards, then +2 cards is way better than +2 cards, then draw up to 6 cards.

[Jeebus]

So I guess you're thinking cost-benefit in terms of how many people read what you're posting?

Not at all. I'm simply replying to conversations where they actually occur.

Oh. Well, they occur here too...

[BraydonM]

So have we gotten a ruling on whether you can choose the order of the choices? That matters a big deal for Town Elder + Blacksmith: draw up to 6 cards, then +2 cards is way better than +2 cards, then draw up to 6 cards.

All effects from a single card happen in the order they are written. With crier this can draw to 8 but using the first and last mode gives you 7 and an action which is better unles you’re drowning in actions.

[emtzalex]

So have we gotten a ruling on whether you can choose the order of the choices? That matters a big deal for Town Elder + Blacksmith: draw up to 6 cards, then +2 cards is way better than +2 cards, then draw up to 6 cards.

All effects from a single card happen in the order they are written. With crier this can draw to 8 but using the first and last mode gives you 7 and an action which is better unles you’re drowning in actions.

This carries out the rule that when you play an Action card, you " follow[] the instructions on it, in order, top to bottom." It's specifically applied in the FAQ for Scrap, where the order can also matter (as the +1 Card you take can hit the shuffle before you gain the Silver/Horse, or can draw you an on-gain Reaction, which you can then use).

[Donald X.]

So I guess you're thinking cost-benefit in terms of how many people read what you're posting?

Not at all. I'm simply replying to conversations where they actually occur.

Oh. Well, they occur here too...

And here I am! And you can also find me on reddit and BGG.

[Commodore Chuckles]

So have we gotten a ruling on whether you can choose the order of the choices? That matters a big deal for Town Elder + Blacksmith: draw up to 6 cards, then +2 cards is way better than +2 cards, then draw up to 6 cards.

All effects from a single card happen in the order they are written. With crier this can draw to 8 but using the first and last mode gives you 7 and an action which is better unles you’re drowning in actions.

OK, I guess that would be why the option for drawing up to 6 was put first?

[J Reggie]

So I guess you're thinking cost-benefit in terms of how many people read what you're posting?

Not at all. I'm simply replying to conversations where they actually occur.

Oh. Well, they occur here too...

And here I am! And you can also find me on reddit and BGG.

I appreciate that. The inventors of other games I play, such as chess, aren't as active in the online communities for those games.

[LibraryAdventurer]

So I guess you're thinking cost-benefit in terms of how many people read what you're posting?

Not at all. I'm simply replying to conversations where they actually occur.

Oh. Well, they occur here too...

And here I am! And you can also find me on reddit and BGG.

I appreciate that. The inventors of other games I play, such as chess, aren't as active in the online communities for those games.

The ghost of the inventor of Chess probably plays Dominion now.
(I wonder how many centuries he's been dead. It's gotta be long enough for him to get bored of Chess.)

[vidicate]

It looks like Miller was an outtake mentioned in The Secret History of the Guilds Cards.
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Herald#Relevant_outtakes

[AJD]

It looks like Miller was an outtake mentioned in The Secret History of the Guilds Cards.
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Herald#Relevant_outtakes

Interesting! Donald described it as "crazy powerful" and "way better" than Throne Room, and here it is unchanged from that form. I wonder if just having only four of them in the supply mitigates that overpoweredness.

[4est]

It looks like Miller was an outtake mentioned in The Secret History of the Guilds Cards.
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Herald#Relevant_outtakes

Interesting! Donald described it as "crazy powerful" and "way better" than Throne Room, and here it is unchanged from that form. I wonder if just having only four of them in the supply mitigates that overpoweredness.

More likely it's mitigated by being the third card in a split pile and thus not a factor until the midgame. Miller's cycling ability is super strong early on (to sift past junk and get to your good cards) and likely OP as an opener or T3 purchase, but it gets weaker as your deck quality goes up and it starts forcing you to discard good things too.