Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[faust]

What will it take to get people to join the faust party?

I mean, is he immune to all but guilty results?  Do I need to produce one of those for you?

Maybe it's not that I am immune to being scumread - because I am definitely not - but rather that you are not very convincing.

Also, I for one am glad that people don't seem interested in third party hunting when we have 2 mafia flips.

[ashersky]

What will it take to get people to join the faust party?

I mean, is he immune to all but guilty results?  Do I need to produce one of those for you?

Maybe it's not that I am immune to being scumread - because I am definitely not - but rather that you are not very convincing.

Also, I for one am glad that people don't seem interested in third party hunting when we have 2 mafia flips.

Why couldn't you be mafia?  I haven't argued that you aren't.

[ashersky]

I'll start a case, then.

Faust's first few posts:

Vote: lekkit

I’m mildly townreading faust based on our QT, but he’s a player I’ve been wrong about a lot of times.

Our District is Masonry - I mean, what more do you need to determine my alignment?

I can’t believe that I am the aggregate scummiest player out of this sixteen (or any sixteen).  I haven’t even played in months.

Boo.

Obligatory vote: faust to see if he’s town or scum.

Lynching me will accomplish that, yes.

1) what's scummy about that question?
2) I'm mildly townreading didds at this point

1) it's weaksauce! it sounds like "which townies who are neighbors with my scumbuddies do we need to worry about, and which ones are we foolin'?"
2) neat

Meh. The scums in those QTs will be able to tell themselves whether they are suspected most of the time. I don't believe they need ADK to ask this question for them.

Also cayvie's town.

These four are the first of the game for faust, and come in rapid succession.  They consist of exactly one useful statement, where he calls out ADK's question.  Note, faust specifically speaks to scum's thought process and abilities here.

There is also zero content created by faust -- only responses.

[ashersky]

Onward:

self-isolation started 2 days ago so i may be more active than usual (unless I am watching od the series I fell behind on)

This is going to be the most active game in a long time, that's for sure.

This game felt like it took forever to get here.

Indeed it did, and I'm not even sure what for. The whole drafting was for a bunch of things that we didn't know what they did and everyone ended up getting one anyway.

Two more throwaway posts with zero game value.  Nothing here to suggest a town!faust appearance.  There is a NAI mod gripe, but I don't see how that helped, EXCEPT to get people thinking/talking about what the items may be.

Why would he do that?  Role fishing, of course.  By generating conversation on the items themselves, he promotes an environment where information about what those items are could be revealed.  This is a scum move.

[ashersky]

I don't think it's a good idea for everyone to claim. Mass claims early in RMM tends to very much favor scum if it's this early.

You make this seem like a factual statement; do you have any data to back it up?

There is something in between full claiming and no claiming that we can do in this setting, and that's for each of us to claim to our district partner. That creates accountability because scum has to choose what they want to claim. It might even allow some investigative roles to hide behind their District partners so as to not get killed.

Of course it will inevitably reveal some information to scum.

Shortly thereafter, we get some meatier seeming posts.  The first is just a question -- so not so meaty.

The second is to push for a district full claim.  There are varied reasons for this, from supposedly limiting scum lies to hiding good powers.  The latter may work (LL and I schemed a bit like that), but I doubt the first.  Scum can lie in the QT; scum can call their QT mate a liar; there are just so many ways to exploit this.

Classic case of presenting something as pro-town that actually isn't.  It's okay to do that if you are thinking things through, but this post presents it as ipso facto (did I use that correctly?).

[ashersky]

My own original thoughts: faust's scummy for thinking cayvie's town, Lekkit is a great human being but why should I share my read on them specifically? And I think claiming to your district bud the item (but not the PR that comes with it) is good now. A fullclaim should come D2, I believe.

Yes, people who disagree with you are always the scumsters.

What does an item (but not PR) claim accomplish in your opinion?

My own original thoughts: faust's scummy for thinking cayvie's town, Lekkit is a great human being but why should I share my read on them specifically? And I think claiming to your district bud the item (but not the PR that comes with it) is good now. A fullclaim should come D2, I believe.

Yes, people who disagree with you are always the scumsters.

What does an item (but not PR) claim accomplish in your opinion?

Accountability, mostly. Locks scum into a few fakeclaims instead of all of them. Probably a bad idea to do so publically now that I think about it...

How do you think scum could feasibly claim an item that they didn't get?

More questions, no content.

[ashersky]

And now something interesting.

My own original thoughts: faust's scummy for thinking cayvie's town, Lekkit is a great human being but why should I share my read on them specifically? And I think claiming to your district bud the item (but not the PR that comes with it) is good now. A fullclaim should come D2, I believe.

Yes, people who disagree with you are always the scumsters.

What does an item (but not PR) claim accomplish in your opinion?

Accountability, mostly. Locks scum into a few fakeclaims instead of all of them. Probably a bad idea to do so publically now that I think about it...

How do you think scum could feasibly claim an item that they didn't get?

For example, an item their scumpartner got. Or they know what hasn't been picked, I don't know.

So if one scum flips we know who the other is? That's a risk I'm willing to take.

And everything has been picked, there are no leftovers.

And everything has been picked, there are no leftovers.

Hold on... I just kinda figured the number of items equals the number of players, apparently not. Well, there's a point to this then. If scum knows what hasn't been picked for some reason.

This is a huge oversight.  I mean, HUGE.  Apparently the number of items doesn't match the number of players?  You supposedly only realize this now, at 9:44 a.m. on March 18?  After participating in a draft of items that is listed in the game thread?  This comes directly after he makes the statement that scum can't feasibly claim something no one has...

This really reads like a huge lightbulb moment for scum realizing they have more options than they realized.  The issue I have with that is that faust should have realized it much sooner, so the lightbulb moment doesn't fit.  If it doesn't fit, it stands to reason that it's a lie/act.  Who does that?  Scum.

TLDR: faust fakes not knowing something he definitely should have known.  That's a scum move right there.

(And no, there is no conceivable way that someone of faust's own self-declared and independently-verified intelligence misses this fairly simple math.)

[ashersky]

I suppose cayvie's town.

Unvote

I am now town as well for agreeing with you?

Useless question.

I'm inclined to side with cayvie on this one.

Unsubstantiated buddying.

Vote: MiX

Unsupported vote.

I don't think we should PR claim right off the bat, when has that ever worked out for us?

When has it ever not worked for us?

Facetious question.

I'm willing to round claim. Unwilling to role claim.

I don't want to round claim. I'm edgy.

Empty joke to cover up not wanting to claim (or explain why not).

Also, 16 players means we're looking for, what, 4 mafia? 3 seems too weak and 5 seems like too much.

i would normally suspect multiball

but reading the forum has given me the impression that multiball has gone out of style here

oh yeah multiball is also a possibility.

For those who know the setup, what could scum be?

We're all Serial Killers.

Another throwaway joke post.

[ashersky]

All of that gets us to the first vote count of the day.  I'll need to let off here and come back to this.

But for anyone carrying the town!faust torch -- where's the towniness?  There's some true scum moves and a bunch of nothing to hide it in the first part of his Day 1 play.

(Realize that until there are enough players caring about the possibility of a scum!faust, there is no motivation for faust or his disciples to work at all in defense, or in providing utility in response.  That's the unfortunate biproduct of just accepting the default towniness of certain players -- they can just lead the town to ruin.)

[faust]

Well, ashersky has determined that my playstyle is asking lots of questions an making some jokes. I thought that was pretty well established at this point.

Maybe this whole thing is a byproduct of ash not playing that much recently and having old meta of me? I think I used to do more of what ash calls "meaty" posts.

[faust]

This really reads like a huge lightbulb moment for scum realizing they have more options than they realized.  The issue I have with that is that faust should have realized it much sooner, so the lightbulb moment doesn't fit.  If it doesn't fit, it stands to reason that it's a lie/act.  Who does that?  Scum.

Look, a paragraph showcasing confirmation bias. "This really reads like faust is scum for reason X. Expect ... it doesn't quite work. So I guess faust is scum for reason Y!" The read comes before the reason for it.

[faust]

What will it take to get people to join the faust party?

I mean, is he immune to all but guilty results?  Do I need to produce one of those for you?

Maybe it's not that I am immune to being scumread - because I am definitely not - but rather that you are not very convincing.

Also, I for one am glad that people don't seem interested in third party hunting when we have 2 mafia flips.

Why couldn't you be mafia?  I haven't argued that you aren't.

I thought you suggested earlier that I am scum because I supposedly thought mail-mi was town. That belief seems difficult to hold when I was actually his partner.

[MiX]

What will it take to get people to join the faust party?

I mean, is he immune to all but guilty results?  Do I need to produce one of those for you?

If you have it, yes...you did call for people to reveal guilty results, so I'm gonna assume you don't have any.

I don't think it's a good idea for everyone to claim. Mass claims early in RMM tends to very much favor scum if it's this early.

You make this seem like a factual statement; do you have any data to back it up?

There is something in between full claiming and no claiming that we can do in this setting, and that's for each of us to claim to our district partner. That creates accountability because scum has to choose what they want to claim. It might even allow some investigative roles to hide behind their District partners so as to not get killed.

Of course it will inevitably reveal some information to scum.

Shortly thereafter, we get some meatier seeming posts.  The first is just a question -- so not so meaty.

The second is to push for a district full claim.  There are varied reasons for this, from supposedly limiting scum lies to hiding good powers.  The latter may work (LL and I schemed a bit like that), but I doubt the first.  Scum can lie in the QT; scum can call their QT mate a liar; there are just so many ways to exploit this.

Classic case of presenting something as pro-town that actually isn't.  It's okay to do that if you are thinking things through, but this post presents it as ipso facto (did I use that correctly?).

I don't see it, isn't claiming to your neighbor good? Do you think it isn't?

And now something interesting.

So if one scum flips we know who the other is? That's a risk I'm willing to take.

And everything has been picked, there are no leftovers.

And everything has been picked, there are no leftovers.

Hold on... I just kinda figured the number of items equals the number of players, apparently not. Well, there's a point to this then. If scum knows what hasn't been picked for some reason.

This is a huge oversight.  I mean, HUGE.  Apparently the number of items doesn't match the number of players?  You supposedly only realize this now, at 9:44 a.m. on March 18?  After participating in a draft of items that is listed in the game thread?  This comes directly after he makes the statement that scum can't feasibly claim something no one has...

This really reads like a huge lightbulb moment for scum realizing they have more options than they realized.  The issue I have with that is that faust should have realized it much sooner, so the lightbulb moment doesn't fit.  If it doesn't fit, it stands to reason that it's a lie/act.  Who does that?  Scum.

TLDR: faust fakes not knowing something he definitely should have known.  That's a scum move right there.

(And no, there is no conceivable way that someone of faust's own self-declared and independently-verified intelligence misses this fairly simple math.)

You only made this argument now, at (current time) in (current day)? After scumreading faust all of yesterday you only mention this now? Did you not even reread faust? If it's this huge why didn't you point it out earlier? Could it be that you are human and thus either didn't have time to reread specifically faust or you didn't see this with the importance that you did right now? I'll like to point out that as a second rounder I had a reason to count the item list multiple times and I failed to do so, why can't faust do the same?

And do you think it's a genuine lightbulb moment, or a faked one? Because you say both there, and honestly you can read it as both.

Well, ashersky has determined that my playstyle is asking lots of questions an making some jokes. I thought that was pretty well established at this point.

Maybe this whole thing is a byproduct of ash not playing that much recently and having old meta of me? I think I used to do more of what ash calls "meaty" posts.

Your meaty posts are also townier, but honestly I can't remember how many of them you make nowadays.

Something struck me in the post history ash quoted: why did you vote me when you did? I presumed it was about round claiming, but why me specifically?

[faust]

Something struck me in the post history ash quoted: why did you vote me when you did? I presumed it was about round claiming, but why me specifically?

I don't completely recall, but I think it was you just supporting the round claim stuff without much questioning plus your early push for cayvie.

[ashersky]

This really reads like a huge lightbulb moment for scum realizing they have more options than they realized.  The issue I have with that is that faust should have realized it much sooner, so the lightbulb moment doesn't fit.  If it doesn't fit, it stands to reason that it's a lie/act.  Who does that?  Scum.

Look, a paragraph showcasing confirmation bias. "This really reads like faust is scum for reason X. Expect ... it doesn't quite work. So I guess faust is scum for reason Y!" The read comes before the reason for it.

Obviously so.  I even stated as much.

I am going back to find things to show that you are scummy.  You said I haven't been convincing, so I'm trying to find things that might convince others.  I'm already convinced.  It isn't my job to convince myself you are town.  That's your job.

[ashersky]

@MiX

Never assume.

Claiming to your neighbor is good for the scum in your neighborhood.

I made multiple arguments in real time, but no one wanted to listen.  I'm re-pointing things out, as well as catching even more.  I think it is a faked lightbulb moment from faust, because faust is too good to not have already had the lightbulb moment N0 in the scum QT.  For a bad scum player, it could be a genuine lightbulb moment.  So yes, I say both, as I just explained.

[ashersky]

I'm in a tough spot, right?  I know faust is scum, but no one will trust me enough to follow through.  I can expend lots of energy trying to convince people, but it doesn't seem to have an effect.

So I can lurk, do something insane, or just wait it out.

You can all count on me for a hammer.  Not sure I have much else to contribute, I guess.

[MiX]

Vote: faust

[faust]

A more persuasive argument could have been made that I didn't much care for lynching either mail-mi or Raptor for most of D1, but for some reason ashersky seems hellbent on analysing this game while ignoring two scum flips.

[ashersky]

A more persuasive argument could have been made that I didn't much care for lynching either mail-mi or Raptor for most of D1, but for some reason ashersky seems hellbent on analysing this game while ignoring two scum flips.

I don’t find that to be alignment-indicative of veterans, so I don’t count that against you.

[faust]

Claiming to your neighbor is good for the scum in your neighborhood.

This is wrong, and plus if I was partnered with Raptor/mail-mi it would have actively been bad for my team because it would have gotten basically no extra info out of this.

[ashersky]

Claiming to your neighbor is good for the scum in your neighborhood.

This is wrong, and plus if I was partnered with Raptor/mail-mi it would have actively been bad for my team because it would have gotten basically no extra info out of this.

What?  I just meant in a town/scum neighborhood, claiming there benefits scum.

[ashersky]

Unrelated — does anyone regularly play from an iPhone?  Any protips?   Pinch to zoom doesn’t even work for me.  Maybe it’s my browser.

[faust]

Claiming to your neighbor is good for the scum in your neighborhood.

This is wrong, and plus if I was partnered with Raptor/mail-mi it would have actively been bad for my team because it would have gotten basically no extra info out of this.

What?  I just meant in a town/scum neighborhood, claiming there benefits scum.

Yeah, but if I was their partner, I would have known that there aren't a lot of such neighborhoods. Also Glooble had already claimed to me when I made that post, so no extra info on that front either. So what active benefit for my team was I seeking?

[ashersky]

I will admit that my single minded focus on faust is rendering me useless otherwise. 

I might be town’s best lynch to both remove the distraction and see my flip.