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Author Topic: Vanilla Cards  (Read 6922 times)

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rinkworks

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Vanilla Cards
« on: June 28, 2011, 12:55:36 pm »
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I realize vanilla cards are not the most exciting card types, but I really like how much play can be squeezed out of such simple cards with no fine print.  Village/Smithy chains are fun to play.  Grand Market combos beautifully with itself.  Spamming Worker's Villages for +Buys in Gardens rushes can be fun.  Etc.

Donald has said that early on he considered all the different possible vanilla cards and recognized that not all of them would be interesting enough to have.  I kind of think there IS more space to work with, but then, on the other hand, there are probably a few more vanilla cards scattered throughout the remaining expansions, so we can both be right.

So what would be interesting?

theory mentioned Grand Bazaar in another thread -- presumably that would be +1 Card, +2 Actions, +$2.  I can see this being priced at $6 with no purchase restriction (like Grand Market has), because if you get a chain of these going, you don't also accrue +Buys to spend all that money with.

I think there is room for another Festival-like card, something that offers bonuses without drawing cards.  This drawless property of Festival allows for some very interesting combos, such as with Library/Watchtower, and forces the player to consider the trade-off of having the bonuses at the cost of a card slot (whereas most vanilla cards are "free," and so there is no consideration necessary when deciding whether to accumulate them).

Woodcutter is another drawless vanilla card, but maybe something with a power level in between:  +2 Actions, +$1.  Actually, that's half a Fishing Village.  How about +1 Action, +$2?  Spammable, but only within the confines of your hand size, and so it's quite different from Conspirator, Grand Market, and Minion.  A lot like Festival, true, but it would be cheaper, so you could accumulate them earlier, and would not double as high-rent Villages, so you'd have to pursue a more specific strategy to make use of them.

I've always kind of liked the idea of having a card that's simply "+3 Buys" or some such, but I understand why there isn't such a thing:  useless on many boards, dominating on a few.

I get why you have to be careful with vanilla cards with VP tokens, as they threaten the balance of the game, but surely there is more of that kind of space to explore than simply Monument.  Would "+2 Cards, +1 VP" work?

Despite my interest in vanilla cards, I think Donald was absolutely correct not to have a pure "+1 Card, +1 Action, +$1" card.  Peddler and Treasury are all the more interesting for not having a basic version of themselves.  In any case, the basic version would probably be the most difficult to make any kind of interesting use of, because there's no sacrifice.  You get an extra +$1 without any consequences.  You don't lose a card, like with Festival, nor an action, like with Smithy.  You just get it.  There's no way to use it well or use it poorly.  Peddler and Treasury, by contrast, are so very much more interesting to use.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2011, 01:42:49 pm »
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A +1 Action, +2 Coin card is essentially Silver-As-An-Action.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2011, 02:11:15 pm »
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A +1 Action, +2 Coin card is essentially Silver-As-An-Action.

Apart from it's possible to draw it dead. Therefore Silver is strictly better than it and so it should be costed at $2. But then in most cases it's just a cheap Silver. That's why such a vanilla card is not 'possible'.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2011, 02:13:07 pm »
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A +1 Action, +2 Coin card is essentially Silver-As-An-Action.

Apart from it's possible to draw it dead. Therefore Silver is strictly better than it and so it should be costed at $2. But then in most cases it's just a cheap Silver. That's why such a vanilla card is not 'possible'.
Silver's not strictly better than it: there are situations where you can draw this card live where Silver would be dead - hands with Tactician in, for example.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2011, 02:33:38 pm »
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A +1 Action, +2 Coin card is essentially Silver-As-An-Action.

Apart from it's possible to draw it dead. Therefore Silver is strictly better than it and so it should be costed at $2. But then in most cases it's just a cheap Silver. That's why such a vanilla card is not 'possible'.
Actually I think this is usually going to be better than Silver, but the situations for either are so painfully obvious that this card shouldn't be printed. Cards that this is better than silver for include Tactician, Conspirator, Minion, Quarry, Vineyards, and Peddler.

rinkworks

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2011, 03:01:28 pm »
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Hahaha.  I didn't even realize it was equivalent to Silver, save for a few weird interactions.  Well, like Donald said, not all vanilla combinations are worthwhile.

I really want a Grand Bazaar now, though.
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theory

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2011, 04:37:48 pm »
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I think there's a distinction to be made between "vanilla cards that are not worthwhile in Dominion" and "vanilla cards that are not worth printing to sell in a Dominion expansion".

A $3 Action that reads +1 Action +$2 doesn't really break the game: it's somewhat comparable to Silver, because it can be drawn dead, but it can also be Throned and be more effective with Minions and such.  It's just so damn boring that it'll never see the light of day, but if you want it in part of your own variant there's nothing inherently wrong with that.
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Tables

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2011, 04:18:02 pm »
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I remember a fan expansion I'm making (still want to get around to playtesting) has a $5 card: +2 cards, +$2. I think that's a card that could eventually see the light of day... perhaps.

I wonder just how many remaining basic cards we could see, though. It's interesting to think about... +3 cards costs $4. +2 cards +1 action costs $5. +1 card +2 actions costs... $3? And yet they're completely fair costs for such cards. I wonder what +3 actions would cost? Such a card will probably never exist, since it's often of little value yet occasionally of immense value. I could see it happening, perhaps.

+VPs, if you count that as a basic effect, could have many cards potentially, if Donald decided to reuse the VP chip mechanic. He already mentioned +1 card, +1 action, +1 VP being a balanced card idea, but it did nothing to move towards an endgame so you can theoretically end up in a standoff where both players can guarantee they draw their deck, earn say 5 VPs from such a card but then have no card they can buy without ruining their engine, and one player ruining their engine would cost them the game (say both players are roughly equal on VPs).

Given that, I think any basic +VP card should probably give some money or buys, to encourage buying more cards. That limits the options for them, but there's still a few possibilities I suppose.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
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randomdragoon

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2011, 07:28:46 pm »
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Trusty Steed used to be +2 cards, +$2, during design. It got a couple extra abilities since then though...
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2011, 04:54:45 pm »
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Roadside Stand
$4 Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy

Glutton
$3 Action
+1 action
+2 Buys

Temptress
$4 Action
+1 Card
+ $2

Farm
Treasure-Victory
1 VP
+ $1

shark_bait

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2011, 05:03:20 pm »
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Roadside Stand
$4 Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy


Not to be nit picky... but this is strictly worse than Workers Village at $4.  Perhaps $3 would suit it better.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2011, 05:11:27 pm »
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Hey, whaddya know? I feel dumb.

chwhite

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2011, 06:59:31 pm »
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I think this is probably the most interesting vanilla card we haven't seen:

Stonemasons
$4 Action
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+ $2

A $4 card which reads "+2 Actions, +$2" might also work.  Logging Village?  Though it might look silly when Fishing Villages are around, so we probably won't see it.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 07:02:38 pm by chwhite »
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Epoch

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2011, 02:31:45 am »
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I think this is probably the most interesting vanilla card we haven't seen:

Stonemasons
$4 Action
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+ $2

Feels like if it were on the board with Peddler, the only thing to do would be to get into a Stonemasons/Peddler race.  And then it leads straight into three-piling with Estates?  If you thought a Gardens strategy was fast.  And speaking of Gardens...

I think that a card which was just straight up +3 Actions (probably at $3) would be potentially interesting, but perhaps not.

An Action which was just +$3 for $5 is probably not unbalanced (terminal Gold, slightly lower cost) seems like it would be well-balanced but dull. 
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chesskidnate

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2011, 03:39:38 am »
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grand bazaar sounds too strong at 6, compared to gold since as long as you dont draw it dead its usually better than gold if your average card value is better than copper. Then consider it with a draw engine or Kc/Tr and it  will usually become much better than gold
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Kimwipe

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2011, 10:35:40 pm »
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Great Duchy
$6 Action/Victory

+1 Card
+1 Action

3VP


Is this too cheap? Should this be worth 2VP?
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rinkworks

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2011, 04:30:38 pm »
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A late reply to a few ideas here:

I think this is probably the most interesting vanilla card we haven't seen:

Stonemasons
$4 Action
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+ $2

This is a Festival without one of the actions.  Nonetheless, I imagine that that small difference (plus the small yet significant cost difference) would make it play quite differently.

Quote
Temptress
$4 Action
+1 Card
+ $2

Feels a bit overpowered.  If we accept that a terminal Gold is balanced at $5, this, by contrast, is probably going to be superior except at the very beginning of a game.  Even in a cursing game, I would think the average card value would be higher than $1.  Perhaps a better comparison:  the range and variance of the amount of money this yields is probably not vastly different from Harvest.  When you can play a Village prior to it, Temptress becomes better still.

Quote
Farm
Treasure-Victory
1 VP
+ $1

I love this one, even though it basically boils down to half a Harem.  It's weird how hybrid victory cards can be interesting even when they do very little -- Great Hall, for example.  What would you price it at?  $3?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 04:32:39 pm by rinkworks »
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AJD

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2011, 04:41:51 pm »
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Somewhere in the Secret Histories I think Donald says that they playtested a half-Harem, but nobody bought it. (No one wants to buy an Estate or a Copper, after all, and having both of them in one card isn't that much better.)
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chwhite

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Re: Vanilla Cards
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2011, 04:59:01 pm »
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A late reply to a few ideas here:

I think this is probably the most interesting vanilla card we haven't seen:

Stonemasons
$4 Action
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+ $2

This is a Festival without one of the actions.  Nonetheless, I imagine that that small difference (plus the small yet significant cost difference) would make it play quite differently.

I thought of Festival when I was proposing it, but the most salient comparison is to call it a non-terminal Woodcutter instead. 
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